MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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• discussion archive

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 2:21 am
  Ah, Seselj, a flashing topic again, the politico who Milosevic once described as a "Nationalist Nutcase". ... then he became Milosevic's pal ... and the World turns. Still, I guess it must really just be so difficult to get good help, these days, also evidenced by those at Emperor's Clothes managing to have got themselves regarded as some as Milosevic's "staunchest" allies. I guess being in prison doesn't make it any easier.

  I see that MossadPaysMeDamnWellNow.com is still ranting on about Ramsey Clark and the World Islamic Conspiracy, run from Washington in cohorts with Ramallah. So little time, still so many soft underbellies to hunt out and attack, eh, Mr. Israelite? Dear oh dear, I think the guy's losing it. Better watch what I say, I have no desire to push someone so close to the edge over it.

  Jeez, a novice US Attorney General picks the FBI, of all organisations, to investigate a crime (Luther-King assassination) in the US. What the hell could he have been thinking? I guess he could have picked the KKK instead. Or whoever was picked to investigate the Kennedy assassination: a rabbit would have to be using GPS to sort through that Warren. We all know how clear the answers that came out of that investigation were. And of course, the Justice Dept. of the time must have been just choc-a-bloc with Civil Rights sympathisers and protestors, a regular smorgasbord of ethnicities. Me's thinking a certain someone ought perhaps to be retired out onto their own grassy knoll (just watch out for those conspiracist Islamist rabbits, though, burrowing in and undermining the very knoll you stand on, Mr. Israel. Still, that wouldn't be the first time you'd been on shaky ground).

  I swear, Mr. Israelite talks about slanders against him, and refusing to betray his "principles". Pretty rich for someone who has jeopardised support for Milosevic and the Serbs, by insisting on seeing an Islamist anti-semitic conspirator under every bed, and behind every pillar and post, and implementing that vision in the dismal transformation of a once apparently largely rational website, "Emperor's Clothes", into the "IDFsNewFatigues.com" (ack: P WP). A website that now doesn't hesitate to cite the equivalent of every website that falls within the generalised nut-job category of Zionists'R'Us.com, along, of course, with a smattering of selective MEMRI references to "Islamic" sources, such as the Hamas Charter. I have a vague recollection that Hamas was initially funded, if not founded, by Israel, on the old idea of divide and (mis)rule, as well as the fact that the hard-liners in Israel never wanted a more reasonable secular Palestinian base to deal with. Matter of fact, I also have a vague recollection that the War-Criminal Slug Sharon had something to do with their formation or support.

  As someone else has pointed out here, one of those dullards like me obviously, who still hasn't been convinced by the persistence of the Zionist attempt at the revision of history of the Israel-Pal. problem, so prominent in those Zionists'R'Us.com websites, embarassingly eagerly picked up and cited as Gospel by the We'llHelpMilosevicIfWeCanButZionismComesFirstSoWe'llFuckHimIfWeHaveTo website, that the only effect you'll have on the majority of non-American newcomers to your site is to convince them what a bunch of whack-jobs that you are, and Milosevic must be just as guilty as "they" say he is; oh, and those Serbs really must be as genocidal as "they" say too. I mean, if they're anything like the (majority) of Israelis, so admired by the Israelite man; and unlike those jews at Cactus so stereotypically and not unironically referred to by Israel (Jared) as "self-hating" jews - more than verging on a racist stereotype, I venture to add. Perhaps that's a characteristic of a real self-hating jew - or more accurately it was the attitude of the NAZI supporting ardent Zionists towards European Jews leading up to and including at least part of WW II. Collateral damage, the ends justify the means, a "price worth paying", great PR material for the next century or two. PR material rather cleverly hijacked, I'm sure you'd agree, by Rudderless Feign though in a different context.

  Of course, Israel's (the cuntry, sic) erstwhile if not covert continuing support of Hamas is just one of a multitude of items the history of which must be revised. As the HamasAin'tUs,Honest.notedu website strives to do, as it does with all pretty well commonly accepted facts (that the anodyne heavily pro-Israel US media doesn't touch) that show Israel in a bad light - as most do. Of course EC does this pretty much on the simplistic basis that the CIA are bastards (true) so who can trust anything they say? Well, of course, that depends on what they are saying, and about whom they are saying it. As the "intelligence" service of the country that played the largest part in the creation of Israel, I have no reason to disbelieve them on that particular issue. Who, looking at the history of Sharon and his regime, how Sharon's provocations put him in power, can seriously doubt the possibility that when alone he rubs his fat hands in glee with every Palestinian suicide bombing? I'm sure of it.

  Perhaps IDFsNF.net will soon have a plaintiff (sic) piece "proving" that Israel played no part in supplying the mad Ayatollahs in Iran with arms as part of the Iran-Contra scandal? I await such a piece with very much abated breath.

  Peter Taylor usefully points us again to the terrorist origins of the terrorist state of Israel. Terrorism is of course a technique used by those that perceive themselves as militarily weak in the face of a militarily relatively strong opponent. As the link shows, and is well known, except perhaps in the US, Zionists in Palestine and in the nascent Israel jumped on the technique with gusto. As such this makes total BS of Bush's et alia's "War on Terror", a "war" against a dismal technique (whether used by Zionists, Palestinians, or whoever) is fated to never end (or result in genocide); which, of course, is probably precisely what Bush et alia, including Sharon, have in mind. A whole host of countries to pick from to attack at the appropriate time before the next one of those facades they call a general election occurs in the US(/Israel).

  As well as Peter Taylor, a slightly less well known gentleman ;-), but closer in time to some of the original fascist & terrorist underpinnings of the state of Israel co-signed this letter:

  THIS LETTER

  As I'm mostly grown up, that gentleman is the closest I permit myself to have as a "hero"; albeit not to the extent that Israel and Wilscoxon here regard Milosevic; unlike in their case I do not think the Sun shone out of Einstein's derriere. In fact I find their deference quite spooky, much as I imagine a WW II Gauleiter's eyes lighting up when the subject of der Fuhrer arose. I'm sure the last thing Milosevic would want is for you guys to inadvertently genuflect to him, so, hey, get a grip. I might say similar although toned down a bit to the poster here who seems still to be under the delusion that JI and EC have been devoted to the Serb cause for years. If their priorities aren't now clear to that poster, well I guess there isn't anything else to say about it.

  I guess there's no chance at this late stage that you'll answer the question I asked you repeatedly on this forum before, Mr. Israel? You know the one about why treatment of Israel-Pal was conspicuous by its almost complete absence from your website prior to, as you try to lead us to believe, the scales falling from your eyes, and no doubt with your help Gil-White's eyes, after Jenin I? Previous to this you try to tell us you held the "standard lefty" view as to the plight of the poor dispossessed Palestinians. So, why not more treatment of the injustices inflicted on the Palestinians by the US's main minion in the Middle East on your website? As you have persistently refused to address this question, I can only conclude, on the balance of probabilities, that you are lying through your teeth about this, and you always were a sleeper Zionist (aka Fascist).

  'Course, you may just be waiting 'til the fog of time erases memris of what your website was once like. Then, I guess, you'll be able to accuse me of making things up. Good show! By the way, did I tell you that Arafat is Muslim, and so must be evil? Whereas his wife is Christian, and so I guess must be all sweetness and light. Pity she isn't of the Hebrew faith, that would surely confuse the hell out of you even more.

  Mr. Israel seems to think that repaying his debt for the help (most) Serbs gave to Jews during WW II, by his support for Milosevic and the Yugoslavs is somehow a badge that should be worn proudly, so oft is it proclaimed. I'm surprised that no one else has picked up on this, but I disagree. Has no one else seen the implication in this that amongst all injustices visited amongst peoples, however they may be artificially divided into groups, that Mr. Israel would immediately jump on those involving groups who have done something for or are favourable towards the Jews (more specifically excluding the "self-hating" Jews, so I mean Zionists, really) - to the exclusion or at least partial neglect of the others? Rather than being a proud badge to be trumpeted, this actually illustrates a less honourable position than those of us here who are not Jews, unless of the "self-hating" variety (as well, of course, those here who are not Serbs, or who may not knowingly have even met one). Of course if Mr. Israel thinks that trumpeting his misguided narrow self interest is the thing to do in this regard, hell, so be it. "I'll scratch your back because you scratched mine", as opposed to: "because without arms you're unable to scratch any back". That seems very much the AMERICAN way.

  You're outed Mr. Israel. Why don't you go and play on some Zionist related forum where you belong.

  Wesley-Clarke's debut performance which I caught on C-SPAN was stunning. Definitely real presidential material, and he hasn't really done too badly since, in spite of being the target of the rest of the Democratic pitifuls.

  Of course, should he eventually win the presidency, he'll have set one hell of precedent. Prior successful presidential candidates seemed to have been happy to wait until they attain the office before they turn into War Criminals. Regrettably that seems to have been the case with all such candidates in living memory. It has to be assumed that Wesley-Clarke was familiar with his subordinate's Michael Short's statements indicating intention to directly flout the Geneva Convention - you know the bits about no power to their fridges, no gas to their stoves, bomb their bridges then they can't get to work, and so on.

  Look on the bright side, if Wesley-Clarke isn't the PTB's choice then they'll find some dirt on him, or assassinate him (he'll have an "accident"); on the other hand if he makes it through, perhaps he's got all that War Criminal stuff completely flushed out of his system, courtesy of the Serbs (I wouldn't bet good money on it, though).
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 4:12 am
  June 16th at Den Haag:

  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg101603.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 5:42 am
  Correction: OCTOBER 16th, not June 16th.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 6:37 am
  Yo Mista Emperah Ja-RED!

  You claim that this quote of you which I posted is a “hideous lie”:

  "The assassination of Martin Luther King was a great step forward in the liberation struggle of Black people" The quote appears on page 237 of the book When Push Comes to Shove, written by your former Harvard schoolmate S. Kelman, now a professor at the Kennedy School of Government. The quote is explicitly attributed to you by name (Jared Israel, founder of Harvard P[rogressive] L[abor]). Unless of course it was that other founder of Harvard PL named Jared Israel, you know, the one from Cedar Rapids, Iowa who also headed up the stamp club? The Jared Israel who said this has been quoted in print as having said it for over 30 yrs.

  That’s a nice try about Ramsey and MLK, but of course Ramsey, even if he did serve the Power 35 yrs ago, didn’t ever publicly hail the murder of King as a “step forward” for African Americans. It would take a special kind of sociopathic sectarian asshole to do that (which is where you come in). Guess I shouldn’t be too shocked that while you and Wilcoxson think it’s fair game to delve 30-35 yrs into Ramsey’s past, you cry foul when somebody tries the same with you. Is it because…once a sectarian wrecker asshole, always a sectarian wrecker asshole?

  Your epithets notwithstanding, I’ve never lied on this board on any subject, including you - which is why you can’t actually find a lie from me, nor quote it as an example - though it’s been an imposing task to keep track of all your lies, both here and on that stenching, gutter website of yours.

  I notice you’re now recycling your old garbage at tenc about Clark being an agent and how he was the one trying to dupe the public into thinking Milosevic wanted lawyers and had a “legal team.” This is consummate buck-passing and hypocrisy of course. You and Varkevisser sent out a press release in Feb. 2002 which referred to the Milosevic “legal team,” and Vergès as a member of it, along with Chris Black. And Nico Steijnen, whom you hold up us some kind of gold standard, wrote an article for a Dutch law journal (also in early 2002, I believe) which referred to SM having an “international” legal team also, and which included Chris Black. This article was posted at Wilcoxson’s website.

  And au contraire, Andy Wilcoxson, many people who are not retards in numerous corners of the world are finding it increasingly clear what Varkevisser’s instrumentality is to Nato and Carla. That’s partly because they, unlike you, can think for themselves, and also because they’re able to situate events on a temporal axis and comprehend their meaning. The Clark visit of a year ago took place before the blanket ban on visitations, a blanket which doesn’t seem to cover Varkevisser, and in no way reflected an effort by Clark to impose himself as counsel. The SM quote you keep flinging at us doesn’t reflect on Clark’s actions, but rather on the Tribunal’s, just as they are now trying to impose counsel also.

  What’s interesting is to see when the door to Carla’s slammer swung open for Varkevisser, while it remained shut to Sloboda and Vlada. On May 17th you, Jared, and Varkevisser began your public campaign of wrecking and slander against the ICDSM leadership, acting on the wishes of nobody except yourselves, and using the then-ICDSM website to do it. ICTY’s response? Varkevisser gets to visit SM on May 30th. When you and your 2 pals got your lying wrecking keesters expelled from ICDSM, you began your 2nd big wave of wrecking, telling the whole world that the “best” “most effective” way to donate to SM’s defence was to send $ to the canteen fund account at the UNDU, where the last thing it could be used for was his defence. To this day your 2 pals lie publicly at the fraudulently named “icdsm.com” website, claiming that, and I quote:

  President Milosevic's defense is in urgent need of funds. We suggest that people donate money directly to President Milosevic, as follows:

  Account (IBAN): NL13RABO0192325019 SWIFT code of the bank: RABONL2U

  Of Penitentiair Complex Scheveningen Netherlands

  … a shameful lie and a fraud because $ sent there can’t be used for the defence and you know this because on Sept. 12th you posted this statement at your website, which diametrically contradicts your crooked pals, which is perhaps why you pulled it shortly thereafter (on orders from the Boston capo?):

  Note from www.slobodan-milosevic.org Webmaster: I contacted the office of the Registrar of the Hague Tribunal today (12 September 2003) and learned that this money can only be spent by the President inside of the Detention Unit. He needs money in the detention unit in order to purchase phone cards and pay postage fees so that he can communicate with the outside world, so it is vital that he receives money here.

  However, he can not transfer the money outside of the Detention Unit in order to pay his associates or conduct any investigations. Therefore, If you have a large financial donation that you wish to make this is probably not the best account to send the money to. If you wish to make a large donation please contact the Socialist Party of Serbia in order to arrange the best way for the money to be used in the President's defense.

  And Carla’s response to the 2nd wave of your wrecking? The slammer gate swings open for Varkevisser once again!! A fitting gesture for services rendered. Meanwhile, it’s still no pasaran for SM’s family, for his party, for Sloboda, for Vlada…

  And when we get a visit from the Milosevic-hating artisian who commends you on your “spoiling” actions (your “fundraising appeal” fraud), your first suspicion is that s/he’s connected to the Prosecutor! Oh, chapeau, Inspector Retard!

  A short while ago you and Boston Blimpy were postulating that the reason the quisling régime in Yugo granted Ramsey Clark a travel visa was b/c he was an “agent” of the ICTY/U.S. gov’t. Never mind that the granting of the visa was delayed so that Clark couldn’t get there before the kidnapping of SM - this was still, according to you, prima facie evidence. So why does your pal Varkevisser enjoy such entrée at the UNDU, this special “visa” as it were, while Sloboda, SPS, friends, and family are banned? Do you have an explanation? And btw, you and Blimpy both visited Serbia under the quisling régime. Who granted you your visas? The Black Panthers? The Shining Path?

  You talk about acting on SM’s wishes, but in fact nothing you’ve been doing is in accordance with his wishes. Is the complete blackout on any news about SM’s case for months now at the Blimpy-controlled and fraudulently named “icdsm.com” site in accordance with the President’s wishes? So the President doesn’t want the world to know about the visitation bans and the call to oppose them, about the Tribunal’s attempt to impose counsel and the calls to oppose that (which you seemed to have some strong feelings about), about the Tribunal’s attempt to impose a 3-mo. prep time for SM’s defence and deny a stay in proceedings for medical treatment, and the calls to oppose that? The President doesn’t want the world to read his remarks at the status conference of Sept 2nd, reported on immediately by Vlada at icdsm.org, but wholly unreported by Boston Blimpy at his websites? And he didn’t want his supporters to distribute and post his public statement of Aug. 17th, immediately posted by Vlada (how is it that Sloboda got this statement? Do you question its authenticity?) and ignored by Boston Blimpy also? So the more than 3-month total blackout by Jared on his websites of any reporting of developments in the trial, including SM’s own public statements, ever since Jared got his big lying wrecker ass booted out of ICDSM, reflects the President’s wishes does it, and the reporting of all these developments and posting of all these statements by Vlada runs counter to his wishes does it? Cuz if you believe that, you owe the “retards” of the world an apology since most of them are functioning at a much higher level than you.
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 8:21 am
  Those who track the mendacious gutter journalism of Jared Israel and his little West Coast whore Andy Wilcoxson may recall a recent “open letter” which the latter launched across the internet and in which he alleged - without a particle of evidence, keeping to his usual style - that Ramsey Clark and the International Action Center were “spying” for the U.S. gov’t on the American anti-war movement.

  Those who actually know anything about IAC - a category excluded from Wilcoxson’s target readership - know that the IAC has actually been the target of gov’t spying and infiltration, rather than the perpetrator. In 2001 Clark’s IAC launched a lawsuit which charged the U.S. gov’t and the Washington DC police with constitutional violations. The suit has had the effect of exposing a gov’t undercover ring infiltrated into the anti-war movement.

  In a victory granting an IAC discovery motion, a circuit court judge has just ordered that the DC police reveal the identities of all undercover officers who’d infiltrated the IAC, and who’d attended the group’s meetings, including some in members’ homes.

  The Police Dept., acknowledging the infiltration program, has protested that this order will effectively terminate a “long-term” undercover operation designed to provide “law enforcement agencies” with “intelligence data.”

  So has there been police/FBI infiltration of Emperors-Clothes? Hard to see why there’d be any need. After all, the whole operation is run by a wrecker asshole who helped deep-6 the SDS before going into political hibernation, who’s done everything he can to fuck over the ICDSM, including embezzling its funds, and who, in explicit violation of Mr. Milosevic’s own views and convictions, tries to associate the latter’s cause with the blood and soil, racist, colonial project of Sharon in occupied Palestine. Who needs the fuzz to help this along? On the other hand I can see why the cops and the feds would want to infiltrate IAC, because, contrary to Fatfuck’s over the top lie in the “Krsljanin Tapes,” the IAC, far from airbrushing any mention of Yugoslavia from its demo’s, was the leading organizer of anti-Nato and pro-Yugoslavia actions in the U.S., including the largest demonstration ever in North America to protest Nato’s aggression, on June 5, 1999, which drew over 10,000 people to Washington DC. This was organized by the IAC, and had nothing to do with the oversized sack of lard in Newton, MA.
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 9:54 am
  ...'oversized sack of lard´?

  Så, så, P WP, - små slag!
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 9:58 am
  Moderator,

  What we see above is 40 paragraphs worth of garbage that nobody cares about.

  None of it contributes to the discussion topic, and none of it contributes to the establishment of the guilt or the innocence of President Milosevic.

  You should pull all of it because the language is obscene, and the posts are designed exclusively to insult people with the aim of inciting a reaction that can only serve to disrupt the discussion of matters that are relevant to the discussion topic.

  Moreover the posts are in explicit violation of your directive issued on Tuesday September 09, 2003 at 11:05 am. In which you said:

  This board is provided for serious discussion of issues relating to the Milosevic trial. It is not to be used for fund-raising, for the airing of personal and/or organizational grievances or for personal attacks on other discussants.

  The above posts by PWP and Dennis Revell violate every aspect of your order, please remove them.

  These people are clearly provocateurs who are endeavoring to sabotage this discussion.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 10:38 am
  Andy Hardy,

  a quote just for you, you poor, cognitively limited patsy, you:

  Censorship is the greatest compliment.

  your mentor, Boston Blimpy, at www.tenc.net
  
  p wp
  Bas Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 10:49 am
  P WP:

  I see you still haven't received professional XSpurt* help to overcome that diffidence problem of yours. ;-)

  Come on, don't be shy, why don't you tell us what you really think. ;-)

  Andy:

  Don't be such a big girl's blouse, and grow up. Nice trick though, trying to turn the provocateurs trick on its head. It's not the World that's upside down, what's upside down is you. And your (fake?) prissiness about a couple of swear words here and there, well, not really worthy of comment, methinks. Actually, I like your website, except where you choose to mimic EC's irrelevant verbiage about Ramsey Clark, and a few other spots; just a pity you've hoist your sail onto the wrong mast.

  Really, I feel if you were to dump that affiliation, you wouldn't be the "rat deserting the sinking ship", you'd be more like the "ship deserting the sinking rat". Btw, what's the difference between your site mimicking EC by impugning the integrity of someone like Ramsey Clark, which I assume is a genuinely held position, and people here impugning Jared Israel's and your integrity, also a genuinely held position? One viewpoint is valid, and the other not, so should be censored? It's the American way?

  If such commentary is relevant on a site entitled http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/, then surely it is here also.

  P.S: Like the way you get those pro-Israeli being pro-Serb articles in there.

  P.P.S: Think you must have been hanging around Jared too long, I figure that's the only way you could have developed the sheer arrogance to "know" just what it is or not that "nobody cares about".

  
  
  *
  XSpurt:
  'X' - Something unknown
  'Spurt' - A drip under pressure
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 10:51 am
  correction?
  
  D R
  E-U

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 10:55 am
  
  
  D R
  EU

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 11:31 am
  DR,

  Merci d'avoir bien corrigé l'affaire. Et mille excuses de mon « boldage » excessif.

  
  
  P WP
  (who will try to come out of her shell and say what she really thinks some day)
  Bas Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 12:15 pm
  I haven't bothered to jump into the fray for awhile but Mr. Wilcoxcon's complaint againtakes the cake. (p)If I remember correctly, most of the posts by him and his handler, Jared Israel, have not been posts about the defense of Milosevic. They have been personal attacks on the members of the ICDSM or propaganda pieces for the Israeli right-wing policies they support. In fact, for the past number of days and weeks, a large amount of their material has been an attempt to turn this site into a discussion sight on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. (p) Further, the obscenity lies not with those who use a few common street epithets from time to time but with those, being the Jared-Andy-Nico pro-Israel, pro-Nato team which has done everything it can to sabotage the defence of Milosevic. (p)The lies continue with the illegaly taped conversations Jared threatens us all with. He even has the hutzpah to claim he recorded these conversation as part of his "duty" as a member of the ICDSM. Except he never advised anyone he was taping conversations, never asked anyone's permission, and therefore is guilty of a criminal offence under US law. And just why was he secretly taping all our conversations? For whose benefit? Certainly not for ours. For someone else I suggest. Further, on the TENC website and in that article re the taped conversation he reveals something which clearly shows he is not concerned with the defence or welfare of Milosevic. He reveals that the phrase "our friend" is code for Milosevic! Can anyone think of a betrayal worse than that. Telling Nato publicly what our code name for him is? That amounts to a betrayal where I come from. And it sure means that Jared and comapny cannot be trusted to act in ayone's interests except their own. Which is Israel's. And how does Jared and co explain the fact that the President of the ICTY, Judge Meron was an Israeli ambassador? (p) The plain and simple fact is that President Milosevic is a political hostage. Discussions of the ins and outs of the "trial" are important in order to reveal to the world the true nature of the farce that is taking place in The Hague. But, there is not going to be an "acquittal". This tribunal has to be opposed on a fundamental level. It is illegitimate, its decisions are without any legal effect whatsoever, its personnel are bandits dressed up in judicial clothing. (p) To get bogged down in whether this witness or that was telling the truth or lying, or trying to understand the day to day tactics of the Prosecutor, or discussing whether he has enough time to prepare, to rest, or whether he should have counsel or not is not going to lead anywhere. Milosevic was arrested on the orders of the US. He was kidnapped by Nato soldiers, put on a Nato plane, taken to the US base at Tuzla, then an RAF plane to Holland, and was then presented with an "idictment" concocted by that unindicted war criminal Louise Arbour, paraded before the world as a war criminal, and now suffers the daily grind of a show trial whose only purpose is propaganda and whose only outcome will be a conviction. Nothing else serves the interests of the US, Britain or Germany. (p) But instead of focussing on the one single constant in this affair, that the ICTY is a fiction, and the entire "trial" a propaganda set-piece, the Jared-Andy-Nico clique posture all day about irrelevancies. (p) The discussion, in my humble opinion, should not be about the mechanics or day to day to and fro of the "trial" but rather about how we can shut this "tribunal" down. How to organize against it, how to get the message out that the people of the world will not stand for this insitutionalized fascism. How to get the people of the world to understand that the Hague Tribunal, the Rwanda Tribunal, the Tribunal for Sierra Leone, the military courts for the prisoners at the concentration camp at Guantanomo Bay are all part of a piece, that they are expressions of the fascist nature fo the New World Order, the US imperial order and that all the prisoners held in those places are held hostage by the US as an example to the rest of us if we continue to oppose them.(p) There must be a joint effort to free all these political prisoners. Otherwise we can all be accused of hypocrisy. The link must be made. The condemnation must be general. To oppose the trial for Milosevic but rest silent on the trials of the Hutus who face the same proganda a the ICTR, or the unkown prisoners held in Cuba is to miss the point completely. This is fascism and we must fight it.
  
  Christopher Black, Legal Committee, ICDSM
  Toronto
  Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 1:19 pm
  Mr. Black,

  Of course the Tribunal is illegal, and it has no right to put anybody on trial or hold them prisoner. This is clear to anybody, but the day to day goings on at the Milosevic "trial" are important, because Slobodan Milosevic is making a historical record. And anybody who cares about establishing the truth about the destruction of Yugoslavia has an obligation to pay attention to what he is doing there.

  Slobodan Milosevic isn't on trial. Serbia is on trial, and Slobodan Milosevic is defending her.

  What Slobodan Milosevic is doing is the most heroic thing that I've ever seen in my life, and I do not consider publishing the facts that he is establishing there about the destruction of his country, and the genocide against the Serbian people, as posturing all day about irrelevancies.

  If you consider the destruction of Yugoslavia and the extermination of the Serbian people to be irrelevant then that is your affair, but I have to tell you that Slobodan Milosevic dosn't share your view. The man is a hero, he is a man that is fully prepared to give his life to his country. Because of Slobodan Milosevic history will never be able to successfully record the lie that the Serbs are a race of genocidal butchers who destroyed Yugoslavia.

  Historians will look and find that the record President Milosevic is establishing is irrefutable, and I consider it to be my obligation to report the record he is establishing.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 1:24 pm
  Andy, I don't know what you are talking about when you mention genocide. There was no genocide in 1991-1995 - on any side. If you want to start claiming the Serbs as victims of genocide, then Croats and Muslims and Albanians become victims of the same thing as well, and then the term loses its meaning in entirety.
  
  P M
  USA

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 1:46 pm
  Wilcoxson,

  Instead of working your usual motherhood blah-blah, why don't you just answer my questions about Varkevisser's visits and about the "fundraising" fraud for SM's defence, you little pea-brained fuck? And kindly spare us the pious appeals to the Moderator about "swear words" since your Fatfuck protector has dished out more than his share of epithets in the last while.
  
  P WP,
  Bas Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 2:12 pm
  P.M.,

  I didn't restrict my remarks to 1991-1995, although 1995's "operation storm" appears to be a genocidal endeavor to me. At any rate there weren't very many Serbs left in Krajina after the operation.

  Primarily when I speak of genocide against the Serbs I am talking about Kosovo.

  It is undeniable that Albanian terrorists are attempting to kill or expell every Serb in Kosovo, and it is clear that they are attempting to remove all traces of Serbian culture by blowing-up Serbian churches and cultural monuments. If that isn't genocide against Serbs then I don't know what is.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 2:36 pm
  P.S. For information on war crimes crimes and genocide for the period 1991 - 1995 I would advise looking at this link.

  http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/documents/index.htm
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 2:48 pm
  Mr. Black your point is well taken but I disagree in part that “The discussion, in my humble opinion, should not be about the mechanics or day to day to and fro of the "trial" but rather about how we can shut this "tribunal" down”. I am personally interested in the day to day events at The Hague even though they make me sick. The day to day farce exposes the malaise of your profession. If the guardians of independent judiciary, due process, and the rule of law are silent we can assume that they care not about justice but whether or not their bills are paid. It reminds me of a lawyer from Kamloops who argued a case in Vancouver calling his partner and telling him that “justice was done’ to which his partner responded “appeal immediately’.

  Your profession did not challenge the appointment of the unindicted war criminal Louise Arbour to the highest court in the land. Bora Laskin and Sopinka must have turning over in their grave when the Canadian government, without a whimper of protest from the ladies and gentlemen of the Bar, appointed a perpetrator who subverted international law, to the highest court in the land. Any lawyer who appears before her on an appeal matter should shower afterwards.

  On the other hand, you are correct in your assessment that the big picture is to expose the fascist direction of the militarists from Washington. We are in danger when a small group, the clique around George Bush, manipulate international law and kill people with impunity and than use their media hacks to justify what they are doing by promulgating fear and hate and shielding their own criminality by exemption.

  Mr. Wilcoxson I enjoy your summaries of the inquisition, but you must agree that Mr. Black is correct about the wider picture of this so called trial. I also agree with you Mr. Wilcoxson that one should attack ideas rather than the person who wrote them. Foul language when used in a personal attack has no place in any discussion. Ideas may be left, right or centre but the author might be apolitical.

  Mr. Black issues of Israel and the Middle East are as much a part of the New World Order as the farcical Tribunals. If one is to expose the New World Order we must combat injustice whenever and where ever it is found. The fact that Jared and Andy use this forum to discuss the Middle East is no less relevant than a discussion on Rwanda. However, I would like to see them relate their discussion to contemporary issues rather than the history of ant-Semitism.
  
  walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 3:51 pm
  Mr. Trkla Re Louise Arbour-There was a move by some lawyers in Toronto to make a complaint to the Canadian Judicial Council. It has not been done yet partly becuase it would disappear into a void. However, Ed Herman and I did publish an essay entitled Louise Arbour:Unindicted War Criminal, exposing her role in justifying the continuation of the war by Nato against the FRY. You can find it in Canadian Dimension and Z Magazine and I bleive it can be found on Swan's and probably still tenc. I sent her a copy personally.

  You are correct that the Middle East question is part of the NWO. But if we bring in that to the discussion, why not Rwanda-Congo with 6 million human beings slaughtered, or Colombia, etc. All these are expressions of the NWO. All I meant was that since this site is dedicated to legal issues and the Trial that it shouldnt wander to far off course. And yes you right that discussion of day to day things has an importance. I thought I had said that in the beginning of my remarks but perhaps I wrote in a confusing manner. I do agree with that, but again, I was trying to shift the emphasis a little away from the daily and tactical, to the overall objective which is the freedom of thall these political prisoners. And that means developing strategies to educate the world public about the threat to justice and democracy they are and to move the anti-globalization movemement and every other movemment against the NWO into action to demand the end of these tribunals. It seems to me that is the crucial problem. I just don't have too many answers. And there are only a handful of lawyers opposing these injustices, a handful across the world. it is shameful to say that not one lawyer in 2,000 in Canada could care less about the breaking of domestic and international and the threat the NWO represents. They are too busy working inside it.
  
  Christopher Black
  Toronto
  Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 4:31 pm
  Mr. Trkla,

  The wider issue of the abuse of international law by political puppet courts is certainly an important issue, don't get me wrong.

  However, simply condemning the ICTY as being illegitimate does very little to defend President Milosevic.

  I'm not saying that the ICTY shouldn't be condemned as illegitimate. I'm simply saying that demonstrating the ICTY's lack of legitimacy won't convince anybody that Milosevic and Serbia are innocent.

  For example, the ICTY has indicted Nasir Oric. Just because the ICTY is illegal and therefore has no right to put him on trial, dosen't mean that Oric isn't a war criminal.

  My objective is to defend Milosevic and to defend Serbia. For me to make the primary focus of my attention the wider issue of the abuse of international law by the West would only dilute my efforts to defend Milosevic and Serbia.
  
  Andy Wilcoxson
  Washington, United States

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 5:06 pm
  Andy, you certainly have a point in your last post. Legal arguments of the kind "ICTY is illegally set up" or "no equality of arms" will hold no water with the general public. Unfortunately, Milosevic must operate within this illegal organ to overturn the media lies and expose the political machinations of the West.
  
  P M
  USA

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 6:29 pm
  

  I am a simeple man.

  I live life.

  I love life.

  I am confused.

  I need help.

  Please do not rebuke me for what I am going to say.

  Actually, I have nothing to say.

  However, there is a question I am dying to hear the answer to.

  Hitler's Europe?

  Solana's Europe?

  KILL SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC
  
  ivko rig
  yOU gO lOVE MonteSerbia

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 7:40 pm
  Mr. Black thank you for your comments. I will search out the essay that you sent to Madame ( I am holding my nose when I say) Justice Arbour. Did she respond? One of my former high school law students articled with Madame Arbour. I know that her only claim to legal fame was chairmanship of the inquiry into the Kingston Prison for women riot. She made some recommendations about changes in Aboriginal law that criminologists seem to like. That was her only claim to fame and the government saw this as qualification for appointment to the Supreme Court.

  After witnessing the frustration of one of my lawyer friends who was involved in a custody matter where he lost contact with his son, I said to him that there is no justice in our legal system. He said I have known that after the first year of practice. Why should we expect international law to be any different since it is the product of the same process?

  Mr. Black I wonder if I may use some of your ideas in letters that I wish to write to the Sun, Province and the local papers here in Kamloops.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 7:44 pm
  How long we still have to wait for this ship to be back in course ? seems like everybody is steering his own way , if we don't gain control over the rudder a wreck is inevitable , please don't let it happen .
  
  M P
  Rep de Panama

• Friday October 17, 2003 at 9:03 pm
  MP:

  Well, depends on which ship you're talking about. And how mixed up people might be in discriminating between the ship and the rats.

  Almost everybody here is convinced about the kangaroo show-trial quality of the Hague proceedings, and a lot of stuff gets recycled now and then (Seselj, Racak, Srebrenica ... ), which is fair enough in relation to new participants. But some of that has been done to death. I've only watched a little of the Milosevic "trial" via Domovina since the KosovO part, but what I've seen has only confirmed my feeling after watching virtually the whole of the KosovO section that Milosevic is, at least from the legal standpoint, completely not guilty.

  I think that had already been established here to the satisfaction of the majority well before the admirable Jari Noussainen stopped posting here. So where to go from here?

  Well, I suggested a while ago to Jurist that the thread topic be widened, I don't remember my exact words, but I believe it was something along the lines of misuse of fake legal looking ad-hoc proceedings in the service of Empire. This would not prevent, of course, main emphasis remaining with the Milosevic case.

  Moreover it seems to me that the TENC folks can no longer blame others for widening the discussion. Chris Black appears to be right in that they've been injecting a lot of recent pro-Israel anti-Pal stuff here with hardly any recent "provocation" from others.

  BTW, Mr. Israel, I wonder if you ever passed those suggestions I sent you that I thought may be relevant to Milosevic's defence for consideration by concerned others? You know, that was back in the days when I fell for the impression you gave that you were a "point" man for the Milosevic case. One was to do with the time-line related to the Albanian doctor's testimony, and how could one lone border guard possibly check all those refugees, take their identity cards and so on, the other, albeit I'm stretching my memory here, to do with (er ... I think) in relation to William Walker, and his denials of CIA affiliation - along the lines of such denial being quite an important part of CIA training. Not useful to get a CIA operative unrelated to Yugoslavia to testify to this? I understand someone called ?Plame? may soon become available as a defence witness in this regard. Failing that, I'm sure ol' Fidel would be willing to pay the carriage for Phillip Agee; who, on second thoughts, as he owns (filthy capitalist) his own travel co. in Cuba, would very likely be willing to pay his own.

  If Chris Black posts his E-Mail again, I'll send you the Albanian doctor witness border guard time-line I partly worked out (er ... if I can find the Powerpoint slide I made up about it). Probably a load of crap, but, hey, I'm not a lawyer. ;-) I actually sent these suggestions in real time to EC, from the astonishingly naive viewpoint that if there was anything to them, that they might be used whilst the relevant witness was still on the stand.

  Hope springs eternal, but I'm not sure why.

  Almost irrelevant to the discussion (except for points made about US media), but hey, why should I buck the trend, I liked this very thoughtful webpage.
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 3:30 am
  I see! Paddy Ashdown, the good little Vatican stooge that he is, has decreed that there was a massacre in Srebrenica! And in the grandest Inquisitorial tradition, the Bosnian Serbs will confess or will have boiling water pumped into several of their orifices to cleanse them of their sins.

  It's a little behind schedule as far as Del Ponte is concerned, Godfred, (certainly much later than October 2003), but it will do as they plan to leave Slobo on the rack for at least another two years. We will have a genocide even if only by DECREE of the Imperial governor!

  The DOS 5th columnists who are about to get a vote of no confidence in YU are also a little behind schedule with THEIR 5 cents worth... They still haven't produced the smoking gun documentation Del Ponte wants them to produce. (They're probably haggling over the wording and their fees before they write the documents and get them stamped by compliant Soros devotees!)

  Yes indeed, the New World Order is a democratic one and everyone has freedom of speech, provided they can afford to pay for it. It's just that the price has gone up and the average Joe cannot afford the licence or the publicity fees Rudder and Finn and the CNN and other companies charge. Corporate sponsors only required!

  Surely there must be some nice Jewish companies that are prepared to stand up for their Serbian brothers and co-sufferers! Maybe some of the Hollywood ones could make a REAL movie about Slobo and the tragedy of the Serbs over the last decade and the next 500 years! A factual one as opposed to the myriad bulls*** ones I've seen so far in Hollywood films and on CNN, BBC, Deutsche Welle and so on. You know the type, the ones where the colonial/imperial pretentions of the big military powers eat up the little nations and people, and NOBODY even gets as much as indigestion.

  I guess there'll always be those who will say, like the Germans after WW2, "We didn't know!".
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 4:49 am
  Ah, Paddy Pantsdown, I can see him in my mind's eye now as tears well in his eyes, for once not because his pants are down, but as he accepts a bowl of cherries from oppressed Albanians in KosovO, as they relate to him the brutal murder by those barbaric FRY forces of a cow.

  P.S: What's that scumbag P.M of yours up to these days, David?
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 4:55 am
  

  AND KILL THE POOR
  
  ivko rig
  Monteserbia

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 5:00 am
  Oh the irony. Just watched Netanyahu (great friend of fellow Zionist Richard Perle) give a speech on Worldlink TV's MOSAIC Middle East News program (apparently you can get this streamed from their website: http://worldlinktv.com/).

  Behind him a large sign, I believe indicative of his location:

  KING DAVID ... ...

  ( ... apologies if deemed irrelevant ... )
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 7:58 am
  Mr. Black, a member of the ICDSM Legal Committee, may be right of course in that "there is not going to be an acquittal" of mr. Milosevic from an illegitimate or "false" tribunal, whose only purpose is propaganda.

  But then how can one even think of "a conviction"?
  
  Godfred Louis-Jensen
  Copenhagen
  D E N M A R K

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 9:26 am
  Mr Black said:

  "The discussion, in my humble opinion, should not be about the mechanics or day to day to and fro of the "trial" but rather about how we can shut this "tribunal" down"

  I do not agree with it, first of all ,

  how can you convince the people around the world that the tribunal must be closed if you can't demonstrate,that the accusations against Milosevic are twisted and false ??

  This is possible to do ONLY in the day by day fighting which Milosevic is performing so far in egregious way.

  Only then, the broad public, if informed, will accept the idea that this tribunal is illegal and appointed by NATO.

  This tribunal was meant to serve the winners with clear purpose to wash the NATO's crimes in YU. This "tool" instead is behaving differently as it was its first plan,but rather as a "boomerang" for those who divised it.

  So in my opinion is totally counterproductive to wish that ICTY is closed.

  It would suit only to those ,who have arranged this mess from the beginning.

  Instead, all efforts, in my humble opinion,should be dedicated to inform the broad public what is actually going on in the trial. If the public is getting more and more aware of it,and this is a cyclopic task to do,then the Tribunal will be shut down consequently by itself.

  In the current situation I am sure this would suit better to those who "invented" this tribunal.
  
  serjoe b
  italy

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 10:05 am
  "The fact that five leader-commanders were indicted (and not, as many had expected, Milosevic alone) means that other leader-commanders can expect to be indicted in the future. This is a very hardline position that Prosecutor Louise Arbour has taken, and I think it is absolutely right under the circumstances. For example, it has been widely reported that Milosevic never signs his name to any orders in order to avoid generating documents that could someday be used as evidence against him. But somebody has to take those orders and send them out and perhaps sign them or stamp them in some way. People who do that are now on notice that they too can be criminally indicted."

  "Each of the five leader-commanders is described as having both de jure and de facto authority. This again is very sound prosecutorial pleading. In a joint trial, a defendant would be inclined to say, "that wasn’t in my department, that was in his department." The prosecutor could reply that, de jure authority aside, there was de facto command or coordination."
  
  A O
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 1:09 pm
  Mr. Trkla, Yes you can use my ideas, whatever they are worth. As for Louise Arbour, she was my professor of criminal law at Osgoode Hall Law School, but her reputation there among her former colleagues is zero. The reason she was appointed to the Supreme Court was becuase of her corrupt service to the Empire for constructing the indictment against Milosevic, for refusing to indict Nato officials for their war crimes when we demanded it, and for killing the investigation into the murder of the President of Rwanda and the President of Burundi during the war in Rwanda in 1994. An investigation that leads to the door of the Empire as well. This makes her guilty of obstruction of justice at the least and being an accessory to murder and war crimes most probably. The fact she is on the Supreme Court is an abomination but it speaks volumes about our justice and political system in Canada. No, she did not reply to me though we heard she did hire counsel.

  Re the comments of others about the value of continuing the trial, I have to say I cannot totally disagree. It is correct to say as Mr. Louis-Jensen does that there will be no "conviction" becuase it has no legal meaning in these circumstances. But equally an "acquital" will have no legal meaning.

  A moral meaning yes. But this "tribunal" has no right to judge anyone at all, so we should not be relying on it to find Milosevic not guilty. He is not guilty. And anyone who know the true history of the region knows this.

  I also agree that Milosevic has engaged in a brave and effective defense of the "charges". However, for us to think that the people of the world are ever going to learn the real history of events through this trial are sadly mistaken. The Prosecutor has no intention of calling as witnesses the principal parties involved. And Milosevic is going to be blocked in bringing Clinton and Albright, Schroeder and Blair and Wesley Clark and Agim Ceku, Osame Bin Laden, and the rest of those bandits before the Tribunal. It is never going to happen. So what kind of historical record" is being created? How are the people of the world going to lean the truth through this trial?

  In fact, in the mass media, which prints only the prosecution allegations and nothing on the Milosevic's defence, the trial is serving the exact role they want it to, to demonize Milosevic and through him all Serbs and more all socialists. (It seems almost taboo to say the obvious, that one of the reaons he was arrested was to break the Socialist Party of Serbia and anything progressive in the FRY. When I first met him and asked him why he thought he was arrested he said"for two reasons-I am a socialist, and I defied the United States.")

  It is only in small groups like this (and among Serbs)that the truth is known about the falsehood of the charges against him and the Serbian people. And the parade of intelligence officers, accused who have made deals, and individual "victims" of "atrocities" is laughable and Milosevic has destroyed them all in his cross-examination. But we will never get anywhere near to learning what really happened and who was really involved. There will be a record, but so distorted as to be meaningless.

  That is why I feel thst we must shift the focus and engage in activities to dismantle these tribunals. Milosevic is innocent. He is being framed by the very nations that attacked Yugoslavia, the tribunal is funded by them, including the same people who fund the KLA and we must tell the people of the world this reality.

  Yes, we can point to the bad quality of the "evidence" agaisnt him,and the general procederural unfairness of it all, I am not against that. That it is all cooked up, but again, I repeat the obvious, these tribunals are illegitimate, wihtout exception, all the accused are political prisoners, and they do not have to recognize the "charges" in any way. There is nothing to recognize. By getting into discussions of the quality of the evidence, its reliablity ect etc we fall into the very trap they want us in, implicitly recognizing their right to 'try" these people. They have no such right.

  I think all this needs to be brought out to ilustrate the illegitimacy of the "tribunal" but there must also be discussion of what to do about destroying these tribunals and releasing these prisoners. And not enough of that is happening. And without that discussion we will never get any ideas on how to do it.
  
  Christopher Black
  Toronto
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 3:39 pm
  My hope is that this illegal trial is serving a purpose in the historical record. The Serbs and Milosevic can hope for because the press is not doing its job of reporting much less criticising this trial. That brings to mind a letter I wrote to the New York Times a few months ago, never published. Here it is, for the record.

  Regarding your article, "Milosevic Denies Role in Srebrenica Killings" (page A4, August 26). You don't seem to have anyone reporting this trial. In the item you printed, the the witness, Drazen Erdemovic, states that the murders he participated in "could not have happened if it had not been allowed by the main staff." This is not evidence and you would do your reputation justice if your headline read, "Witness Against Milosevic Produces No Evidence."
  
  Nikole J
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 5:33 pm
  Yugoslavia wasn't at war with any country or was an inminent threat to the security of anybody , the bombardment of their territory was illegaly conducted by US,UK led NATO forces , it doesnt take a law degree , just common sense to conclude that , whatever comes out of an illegal action is illegal by consequence. It doesn't matter what the arguments about the ICTY legallity are . History will be the last tribunal for Serbia and she will be absolved , and the ICTY and their prosecutors and creators will end up in infamy for the world judicial posterity
  
  M P
  Rep de Panama

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 6:17 pm
  A O:

  You say: " ... it has been widely reported ... " ...

  I wonder where you got that little gem from. Did you make it up all on your own? Boy (or girl) genius you.

  Here I was wondering around like a lame-man in the dark stumbling into things, and you come along to make the scales fall from my eyes. I'm convinced now that Milosevic must obviously be guilty.

  I guess we'll have to wait until someone else pisses off the US Govt. again to stand any chance of finding out just who may have "widely reported" "it", then they can out them like they did Ms. Plame, who's real employer is most likely to be the kind of organisation doing such "wide reporting" that you speak of.

  Mind you, "widely reported" does fit very well with the quality of evidence that the ICTY likes to accept.
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 7:47 pm
  "I wonder where you got that little gem from."
  
  A O
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 8:05 pm
  Milosevic is on trial and is defending himself as we speak. Yet everyone here is preoccupied with fringe nonsense.

  Please, those that can, comment on the tribunal proceedings. Seems like the focus on the proceedings is being highjacked.
  
  J\' P
  USA,Wis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 8:15 pm
  J'P (sic):

  No he isn't. Pay attention.

  A O:

  ? ... ?
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 8:31 pm
  

  The ICTY has been operating uncontested (and well financed) for over 10 years. It seems to me it is a rather late date to attempt to stop its operation when the United States is by now seeking precisely that. This effort requiring a large and clear participation by the World most important jurists and lawyers would have made a difference if they had condemned the Tribunal from of onset, but nothing of that sort did happen because most of this crowd undoubtedly fell for it. That is what bourgeois democracy can produce, the rope to hang themselves and as an act of desperation they will like the victim to save their neck, they hope Mr. Milosevic will not only defend himself but also restore the record, correct the error so the bourgeois can continue their aimless and empty existence without a bad conscience!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 9:53 pm
  DER PROZES is driving me mad (NOT JOKING).

  I am starting to like H 2 O.

  If Christopher Black is right then it may be much more important to follow the "trials" of those indicted only for Kosovo.
  
  ivko rig
  Mars

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 10:25 pm
  ivko rig:

  DER PROZES: Was ist das?

  What's not to like about water?

  You don't mean "A O" do you? Who apparently also seems to be the one fond of random digits, judging for the liking to fairly meaninglessly repeat sections of others' posts. In that case "A O" is better than random small integers, that also being short form, allowing for a bit of abbreviation, for one of Chris Black's well-known street epithets. All the better to remember s/he by.
  
  Earthling Numero 5 Billion + something
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 10:36 pm
  "Two international criminal tribunals were set up in 1945 and 1946"

  "The ICTY has been operating uncontested (and well financed) for over 10 years."
  
  A O
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 10:44 pm
  "Our 5 billionth person is now just 12 years old; our 4 billionth is just 25." 12 Oct 1999

  "Boy (or girl) genius you."
  
  A O
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 11:04 pm
  Arse 'Ole:

  12 years eh? Yeah, I wondered about that, unlike some people, I figured I didn't have the time to waste to work it out more exactly. Still don't. I'll take your word for it.

  With a name like "Dennis", that's more likely to be boy genius, doncha think?

  "Boy (or girl) genius you."

  Enough time and the Jurist' valuable space wasted talking to a plonker, methinks. Sorry folks, won't do it again.
  
  dS² = GijdXidXj
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 11:09 pm
  "World population reached one billion in 1804;

  1927: 2 billion (123 years later)

  1960: 3 billion (33 years)

  1974: 4 billion (14 years)

  1987: 5 billion (13 years)

  1999: 6 billion (12 years)"
  
  A O
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 11:12 pm
  "As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable. There is no salvation for civilisation, or even the human race, other than the creation of a world government." Albert Einstein
  
  A O
  Canada

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 11:15 pm
  ( ... heh ... and where something = integer < 0 ... heh ... )
  
  dS² = GijdXidXj
  Etats-Unis

• Saturday October 18, 2003 at 11:21 pm
  "Don't be such a big girl's blouse, and grow up."
  
  A O
  Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 1:42 am
  Seems to me George Bush, Tony Bliar and Slobo Milosevic must actually be chips off the same block. They all have a less than fond attitude to Islamic extremism and Bin Laden and similar. They all fought against the freedom hating, democracy hating Islamic extremism which is so bent on destroying our way of life. In fact, except for Slobo, the other two are STILL waging war against these same motherf***ers who want to deprive me of my democratic right to freedom, mum's apple pie, Holden(GMH) cars and Vegemite.

  Granted, Slobo only did it on a small scale, but hey!... it's all about proportionality isn't it? It wasn't Slobo's fault he didn't have the means to bomb Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or North Korea (the axis of evil). It wasn't his fault he couldn't get to the other side of the world and bring along his planes, Daisy cutters, tanks and missiles.

  Question: So why is Slobo the ONLY one in the Hague? Answer: He's there as a proxy for Tony and George.

  If the other two were at the Hague, who would fight and defend us from the scourge of terrorism? The Israelis of course!

  Gee, it's lucky Slobo is in the Hague otherwise none of us would ever be able to tell what a war crime is. Why we might even think George and Tony were mistaken about Slobo, except they still keep paying the rent for Slobo's accommodation! Just goes to show "there's no such thing as honour among... freedom fighters".

  Unless of course someone has been lying to me over the last decade and terrorists are actually freedom fighters and freedom fighters are actually terrorists. It's so easy to get things upside down when you look at things from the arse end of the world.

  Dennis,

  Our brave PM is living it up, he thinks he's the Napoleon of the Asia Pacific region. He's got some pretty powerful friends he's been borwn nosing for a while. His future is assured in history.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 2:04 am
  "As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable. There is no salvation for civilisation, or even the human race, other than the creation of a world government." Albert Einstein

  A O Canada

  So! It really must be the Jews who are behind this "criminal enterprise" plot of a World takeover?!

  In any event, I'm ready to testify on behalf of Mr Nice about this criminal enterprise and cite the above information as clear, unadulterated proof. I read it with my very own eyes.

  I wonder if Slobo would ever have gotten to the Hague if his name was Slobo Miloshevitcz instead of Milosevic? Yessir Ara/Fat chance of that!
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 3:55 am
  DER PROZES ist ein roman von Franz Kafka. Which is, in a way, a perfect description of Milosevic's case. When I was reading it a long time ago I took it as a decadence pushed to the extreme; now I know it is a pure realism. The fact is ruining my life. There is one more novel well worth reading: Amerika.

  David

  The question of Milosevic's guilt is for serious people who have all my respect. (Out of it I do not use swear words any more.) Serious poeple have difficulties with irony. For that reason I think in your two previos posts you should have at least given a hint you were exposing the Rudder Finn people's logic by which they make idiots out of otherwise intelligent people.
  
  ivko rig
  Rome
  USA

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 4:45 am
  "La population mondiale a atteint un milliard en 1804; 1927: 2 milliards (123 ans plus tard) 1960: 3 milliards (33 ans) 1974: 4 milliards (14 ans) 1987: 5 milliards (13 ans) 1999: 6 milliards (12 ans)" "For millions of years, mankind and his predecessors lived in a barbaric state of existence, hardly distinguishable from any of the other animals on the face of the Earth. Then one day, about 8,500 to 10,000 years ago (more or less), mankind began to farm." Ever since they have been been worse than the other animals on the face of the Earth.
  
  hush hush
  hush

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 5:24 am
  Dear J' P of Wis, Hypocrite First Class

  For many months now Boston Blimpy and his little coterie of admirers incl yourself have been filling this board with "endless sidebar rants," to borrow your term, about the Palestinians (or I guess you prefer "Jordanians") and Israel and Afghanistan, etc etc. And so if my friend Dennis Revell will permit me a small correction, it isn't that Fatso et consorts "can no longer blame others for widening the discussion." Rather, they (and that includes you) never had the slightest basis for doing so in the first place, as even a cursory glance through months of the board's archives and your own output demonstrates conclusively. But I notice we can always count on Blimpy's gendarmerie to come out truncheons swinging whenever he's been caught out in another big lie.

  Sendin' these comments out just esp for you, you hypocrite, racist coot:

  The question of "What is Palestine?" has no significance at all.

  It is an irrelevant, distracting complexity thrown into a very simple conflict, by those who don't want anyone to understand.

  Only the legitimate populations of geographic areas have the authority to decide (democratically) what to call their countries. We are already supposed to know this.

  When "displaced" Palestinians wish to return to what's left of their family homes, it makes no difference whether we call the region "Palestine," "Israel," or "Jordan." They simply should go home.

  Those who declare that these people are not ethnically or religiously suited for a Jewish-supremacist Israel, as created by the initial ethnic-cleansing, and who use violence to prevent that legitimate population from returning, are quite obviously racist murderers and thieves who should be arrested immediately.

  Zionist Israel's international racist constituency, which supports those crimes against humanity, through lies, donations, and other nefarious activities, should also be held responsible. Those in the "peace and justice" movement, including most of the leaders of the "anti-war movement," who create a smoke-screen for the crimes, by claiming to oppose racist violence, while systematically censoring and suppressing criticism of Zionist racism, keeping this central issue on a "back burner" during all the surges of anti-war activism, definitely fall into that criminal category. All those active supporters of the primary ethnic holocaust of our own time and place - the most flagrant campaign of popular ethnic violence since Southern slavery - should be given the full punishment the law can provide, but that is probably too much to hope.

  The vast number of grossly negligent US voters and taxpayers, who simply don't bother to determine the elementary facts of the Israel-Palestine conflict - the perfectly obvious wrong of an officially "Jewish" state forced into multi-ethnic Palestine - should be noted by anyone who wants a decent future, and should inspire massive reforms of media and public education, so our Planet Earth can be freed from this gruesome danger, which is sure to prove globally terminal, if it is not corrected rather soon.

  When rights to residence, property, and full citizenship in the region in question are weighed according to international law, US Constitutional principles, and normal correctional and punitive action against racist thieves and murderers - when the human rights of the legitimate population are restored - they will tell us what to call the place.

  Until then, as history shows us, peace will continue to be pre-empted by the Zionist demand for racist supremacy in an officially "Jewish" state.

  Dave Kersting

  
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 6:37 am
  Ivko Rig

  Much prefer irony to lead, but it seems some would rather be lead... more by their nose than by their head. Notwithstanding that some are simply dead in the head.

  I suspect that for serious people, that's a serious irony.
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 6:51 am
  PWP Bas Canada

  Are you trying to say that the Zionists are not multi ethnically inclined? My local rabbi, Rabbi Fax or Fux or whatever, says that Israel is one of the most multicultural places in the world. Why it has Jews from OVER 75 countries living there as residents, and even an odd Arab or two. Sounds like multi-ethnicity and multiculturalism run rampant!

  That's about the same as the Serbs in Kosovo... a Serb or two. No doubt, down the track when Holbrook's support for an independent Kosovo escalates, we will hear about how Slobo is responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo too. Is there anything this guy is NOT responsible for apart from the sun rising and setting?
  
  David
  Oztralia

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 7:21 am
  Dear David in Oz

  , you said it mate. He really did become the NWO's all-purpose punching bag from early on.

  And one of the best illustrations of that is the way NWO shills, from Tim Judah to any number of U.S. commentators, would call him the evil architect of a "greater Serbia" - because Yugo wasn't supposed to lift a finger to try and stop the newly dusted off Ustashas and Handjars from implementing their "final solution" to the "Serb problem," you see - and then turn around and blame him for the genocidal rout of the Serbs in the Croatian and Bosnian Krajina, because he didn't "stand by them."

  So they had him coming and going. Never mind that the two condemnations launched by the same crowd of hacks were mutually contradictory and therefore totally cynical. When the Power gives you a blank cheque to scapegoat, that's how it works.

  Amitiés,
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 7:26 am
  YES¡ , EL NIÑO
  
  M P
  Rep of Panama

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 8:22 am
  "Where dull-witted clansmen of our tribe were praying aloud, their faces turned to the wall, their bodies swaying to and fro. A pathetic sight of men with a past but without a present"

  "Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000 years of suffering and deserve all that will come to us"

  "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together THAN THE CREATION OF A JEWISH STATE."

  "If I were to be president, sometimes I would have to say to the Israeli people things they would not like to hear" [That's OK, Albert, they'd have just imported some swaying to-and-fro fundamentalist from NY to blow your (not inconsiderable) brains out]

  All that said Einstein did say things in the early days supportive of Zionism - but that's because they lied to him through their teeth as they did to everyone else - a fine tradition upheld with Wagnerian determination to this day by the folks at EC. Wasn't it Ben Gurion, whoever, who first said: "Talk peace, and create the facts on the ground"? - which pretty much sums up the Israeli attitude ever since. (Unless EC have come up with some stunningly revealing proof that Ben Gurion or some other Zionist hot-shot never said it, and it was all part of the World Islamic plot).

  Einstein also allegedly once said that it would be hard to teach in a co-ed college since guys were only looking on girls and not listening to the teacher. He was objected to and told that they would be listening to HIM very attentively, forgetting about any girls. But such guys won't be worth teaching, - replied the great man. ;-)

  And of course, most famously of all:

  dS² = GijdXidXj (Pythagoras, he say ... )

  Gaza goes to Iraq. Q: What's the difference between these FASCIST US jackboots in Iraq, and the FASCIST IDF jackboots in Palestine? A: The latter don't usually bother giving a "reason": "We knew that this quiet little corner that has maintained itself for fifty years with friendly relationships between people would vanish instantly when a fence grabbed four thousand square metres from our Palestinian neighbours."

  That's OK, PW P, anyone's free to correct me, in fact it's appreciated, though in this case it was unnecessary. My reference to the no longer covert Zionist's excuses was merely to the fact that he had made them, not necessarily an indication that I accepted them.

  Yea. David, pity the dingo didn't get your PM's mom's baby.

  Ivko: So, a roman holiday in Germany implies lots of reading? ( ;-) ? )
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 9:40 am
  "How did the people who stopped Hitler become Hitler?"
  
  A O
  Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 10:41 am
  "The 'N. Y. Times' is the best"
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-Unis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 2:08 pm
  Dave Kersting<

  Feel better now? Other than the one sentence personnel bashing you gave me, the rest of your bloated post was nothing but random words.

  You were off point, so I'll say it again- THIS BOARD HAS BEEN HIJACKED

  Who's watching the 'trial' or the 'videos'? Who are the latest witnesses, how is Milosevic's crossexam going?

  I hate to say it, but the whole board is off focus, nothing but fringe crap, day after day.
  
  J, P
  USA,Wis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 2:22 pm
  No, you pompous coot, I was on point, but just let me make it a tad clearer to you (and I'm not Dave Kersting, which is why the quote was italicized, O Learned One):

  I can't help but remark that you never call your darling dirigible from MA, USA to task for being "off topic" when he launches into his endless marathon discourses about the Middle East and Islam and how everybody who disagrees with him is an anti-semite. And of course we're all just supposed to read in rapt edification as you tell the Palestinians to "go back to Jordan" and various other elegantly wrought and oh so very "on-topic" formulations which just go right to the heart of The Trial, don't they? IOW, you and Fatso and Andy want to stay on topic, except when you don't, which is most of the time, which makes you a hypocrite. OK?
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 3:17 pm
  P WP

  Well that clears it up. Next question is why do you even read Dave Kersting, and why post it here. I reread it, and like what's being posted lately, it makes no sense.

  Have you ever watched the tribunal videos? How is it going, do you speak Serbian, can you read Serbian, any specific comment on the TRIAL ?

  This pompous OLD coot is trying to keep informed. I log on every day hoping Vera, Nori or a few precious others comment ON THE TRIAL .
  
  J, P
  USA,Wis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 4:08 pm
  well, here's hoping they can find the space left over after your (and your sleazy friend's) racist, zionist, off-topic bilge.
  
  P WP
  Bas Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 4:48 pm
  I have been watching the trial even during the times as you say the board has been highjacked. I can say that even after the apprearance of many other witnesses Milosevic still had the upper hand. The only witness that did some damage to his defense was Milan Milanovic.
  
  Dan B
  Canada

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 7:55 pm
  Of course in no way do I condone the use of derogatory descriptions referencing physical characteristics of posters here; but ... darling dirigible ... is a hoot.

  Of course, I have sneaking admiration for it purely for its alliterative quality. ;-)

  ( ... still laughing ... , you're a bad girl, P WP)
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-malheureusement-Unis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 8:15 pm
  ( ... positioning yourself in line for a good spanking ... oops! sorry, wrong window ... ... )
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-malheureusement-Unis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 8:27 pm
  Yes, I would agree. Milanovic's testimony was a bit damaging, but some of the important points were based on conjecture, like "I never heard that Badza was a volunteer" vs. the stronger "I heard/knew that Badza was sent by the state security of Serbia" kind of thing.
  
  P M
  USA

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 9:00 pm
  

  "Absent new and compelling evidence, there are no plans to reopen the case,"

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Shangri-La

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 9:03 pm
  J, P

  You almost made me swear again.

  Instead, I will try to be sweet.

  First: there is no trial if we speak of Milosevic's being in that most of the shameful prisons. Milosevic was taken there illigally which you negate by calling it "a trial" so ligalising the lowist hypocrisy not only of one century but of many. Writing it in capital letters and in bold speaks loads of YOU.

  Second: isn't it clear to you that those who took Milosevic there want us exactly the same thing you would like us to do: follow the trial and think whether Milosevic is having a fair trial and if he is guilty of "genocide". And you ask us to do something wich you obvisly do not do otherwise you would know the name of the man who destroyed the case of those hyenas who call themselves (besides some idiots around the world) prosecutors.

  Third: what has speaking Serbian got to do with anything we are at this forum for? Again, you are putting something to others while you are doing exactly the same thing: you are trying to hijack this forum on behalfe of Serbs. Which makes me think of your intentions here, because, if they were honest you would know that DER PROZES has the least to the with Serbs. They should shut up ashamed they let Milosevic being kidnapped. MILOSEVIC IS THE PROBLEM OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.
  
  ivko rig
  Cuba

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 9:13 pm
  
  A Tale of Two Cities

  Well not quite: more a tales of two towns. Also Dickens’s hero, Charles Darnay who links the two cities, is not quite mirrored in the personage who links the two towns.

  The towns are Londonderry in Britain’s province of Northern Ireland and Racak in Serbia’s province of Kosovo. The personage in question is General Jackson Britain’s current Chief of the General Staff.

  We are all well aware that after Racak General Jackson led the Nato occupation of Kosovo and that these forces stood by while the KLA terrorist forces, dishonouring their obligations under UN Resolution 1244, failed to disarm and attacked Kosovo’s undefended minority populations. This resulted in the ongoing abduction and murder of some two thousand of the minority populations: some 1,300 of which are still missing. Kosovar leaders claim that the KLA also murdered more than one thousand ‘loyal’ Kosovars. Consequently some quarter of a million people were driven from their centuries old homes and the remainder live in ghettoes from which they fear, on pain of murder, to stray. So much so that some would sooner starve to death.

  What prompted this tale is General Jackson’s appearance five days ago before Lord Saville’s inquiry into ‘Bloody Sunday’: a massacre in January 1972 which took place in Londonderry where British troops opened fire on a civil rights march resulting in 28 casualties, 14 of whom died. This is the second such inquiry into this event 31 years ago because Lord Widgery’s original inquiry was deemed to have been a whitewash. General Jackson was then adjutant of the 1st Battalion of the Parachute Regiment involved in the shootings.

  General Jackson had at a previous hearing denied having written a list of those shot in which it was claimed that they carried pistols, rifles and nail bombs: evidence which would exonerate his troops for their actions. No evidence has ever been produced to confirm these accusations that the victims were armed and British troops were not attacked with any such weapons. At this recent hearing General Jackson was asked in view of his earlier denial to account for the fact that such a list in his hand writing had been handed in to the inquiry.

  A comparison of the two towns: The Nationalists - mainly Catholics - in Northern Ireland, a majority population in at least two of the six counties, and the Nationalist - mainly Muslims - in Kosovo were protesting discrimination by the mainly Protestant and Orthodox rulers. In Londonderry unarmed civilians were marching in a peaceful demonstration mainly protesting the fact that as Catholics they were denied the vote. Racak was a KLA stronghold from which most of the population, who had the vote but refused to use it, had wisely fled the fighting.

  A few days before ‘Bloody Sunday’ members of the Parachute Regiment were blown up by a bomb in a pub local to Londonderry. A few days before the ‘Racak massacre’ three policemen were killed, one seriously injured and a number of Kosovar civilians injured in ambushes near Racak.

  In Londonderry unarmed civilians were gunned down while marching in a peaceful demonstration. In Racak a battle ensured between Serbian security forces and resisting KLA terrorists who were well armed and ‘dug in’.

  In Londonderry do we have an illegitimate motive for this attack on unarmed civilians: revenge? In Racak do we have a legitimate motive for the attack on armed terrorists: an operation to destroy a terrorist stronghold?

  Do we not have many examples of both extremes by the coalition forces in Iraq?

  Justice is based on truth and impartiality.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 10:04 pm
  Peter:

  The inescapable logic then being that it's been let go far too late in the day for the re-estlishment of Comintern and the Warsaw Pact, for those chaps to come in, as part of a great humanitarian intervention, including bombing for humanity, if necessary, and dismember and fragment the "United" Kingdom of "Great" Britain and Northern Ireland into largely economically unsustainable puppets of RayGun's "evil" empire, and send Bliar and all previous "U"K Govt. leaders to the Hague for complicity in this cover up.

  Hey, I'll go for that if it prevents Bliar and cabal from committing further war-crimes and acts of treason.

  Why the hell didn't those Irish Repubs. get in touch with Rudderless Feign at the appropriate time. Darn it.

  Concerned "United"-unfortuneately-Kingdom citizen.
  
  Dennis Revell
  Etats-malheureusement-Unis

• Sunday October 19, 2003 at 10:24 pm
  ( ... Rudderlesski Feignski is perhaps wot I meant ... )
  
  Denniski Revellski
  Etatski-malheureusementski-Uniski