 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
| JURIST >> LEGAL NEWS - WORLD LAW >> Discussion >> Milosevic Trial Discussion Archive |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Thursday October 23, 2003 at 3:28 am
Dan B,One small detail, you said that "the witness agreed that Milosevic begged, emphasis on begged and not controlled, Simovic to fly over Vukovar, which highly damaged the prosecutors argument of command responsibility."
President Milosevic asked Simovic to ask his superiors at the JNA to fly over Vukovar, not even Simovic could authorize such an action by the air force. Milosevic had to ask Simovic to ask the JNA mainstaff.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 3:44 am
ANTE MARKOVIC is at the Hague NOW!
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 7:53 am
The old warrant story . . .ha, hah, ha!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-lLa - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 8:27 am
"ANTE MARKOVIC is at the Hague NOW!"
Judging by the beginning of milosevic's cross examination, it looks like Mr Nice is in for another lousy weekend. LOL
The Slovenians won't want to anger the Albanians from Kosovo, considering all the dirt the latter have on the Slovenians and their support for the KLA irridentists, one of the key factors in the breakup of YU. Wouldn't want the poor fellow to start singing like a canary, would we now?!
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 8:28 am
Previous post refers to Agim Ceku's release by Slovenian police.
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 8:36 am
He asked him, but the way he asked him was almost like a beginning. So it is even better if he had to beg than just ask.
Dan B
Canada - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 9:43 am
Dan B,I wasn't making the point about begging vs. asking, I believe that the word being used was entreating.
The point I was making was that Simovic had to ask somebody else. He even have didn't have the authority to send the air force. So Milosevic entreated Simovic and Simovic then entreaded the JNA.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 10:14 am
David what are you talking about, I am supposed to have shame because you think I should give more tax money to the defence of Milosevic or elite generals after the millions stole by his government?Consider to look in the mirror before you start criticising other ones. My advice would be the shame you should feel about your country role in Iraq along with Britiain and the US. That is shameful (in fact much much more shameful than indictment of few generals) but nobody in Serbia gives Australia lecture about it.
Let me remind you and others who are getting upset about indictments:
Most of these men started working for DOS in some way as soon as Milosevic was sent to Hague. They thought by being treachourous to Milosevic and changing to Djindjic they could 1. Avoid Hague. 2. Continue their happy lives either working for DOS or receiving pension / other benefits
I forget this is the time I supposed to feel sorry for the whores. The only thing Im sorry about is that they will not be tried in Serbian courts.
Arandjel P V
yug - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 11:29 am
Dan B,"If she is going to damage Simovic's account, then why would the prosecutor call Simovic." (Oct 21, 10:53 pm)
A similar thing happened before. Rade Markovic's testimony (in July 2002) contradicted the story about the alleged offical cover-up of crimes in Kosovo.
After Rade Markovic had testified, the prosecution was desperate, and so they called two witnesses who were lower in the hierarchy but closer to events on the ground. They wre supposed to discredit Rade Markovic, as May himself admitted.
Yet these witnesses supported Rade Markovic on the very point of contention.
Tough luck for Mr. Nice. He surely remembers the sore episode.
Matthias Gockel
Germany - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 2:06 pm
You make some very good points to David Arandjel but David has expressed his views very clearly about the Australian role in Iraq. The fact that Bush was heckled in parliament and the fact that many people came into the streets speaks volumes about where most Australians stand on the issue of Iraq. To me it is not as clear where Serbs stand on the issue of being masters in their own home. I know where my father stood in 1943 and it cost him his life.The impression I get from many Serbs who have fled or left the country since its demise is that they don’t give a piece a crap for Milosevic or the quislings who are in power now. It seems more important to Serbs that their sports teams were expelled from international competition than the daily shame of being “screwed” by the international Mafia.
Arandjel, the issue here is not, as you claim, that Milosevic stole and that the generals changed sides. For Christ sakes, Arandjel, where have you been living all your life that you did not notice that everyone stole from the state? That is one of the causes of its demise. I left the country in 1952 and on several trips back, and I am not a rocket scientist, I saw rampant graft and corruption. If you wanted anything done it was not done on the basis of what you know but whose ass you were kissing.
Arandjel you indicate that you should not “feel sorry for the whores” who changed sides and that you only feel sorry that they are not being tried in Belgrade. Before that can happen you need political leadership where traditional concerns matter but what matters more is that intelligent men and women unite against international blackmail, state terrorism, and false indictments. Once you recognize this you have a starting point rather than be blindly unaware that democracy for the few is not democracy at all.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 9:01 pm
Walter Trkla,
Touche! Precisely my point. As for Australia in Iraq, it's not a shame. It's a DISGRACE! As for the Australian government not assisting an Australian in Guantanamo, exactly the same principle applies... Yet another disgrace!
Arandjel
You said: "I forget this is the time I supposed to feel sorry for the whores. The only thing Im sorry about is that they will not be tried in Serbian courts."
Precisely my point! By all means try them in Serbian courts if you think they are guilty of something. Don't expect to just discard them and leave them to someone else's "justice", justice which is not what it purports to be. Apart from that, you personall seem to have decided they are guilty without any trial or process so they should just be cast adrift and allowed to die on the high seas. That's not the OLD Serb tradition that I've had the limited opportunity to see. Or maybe it is, nowadays?
Furthermore, soldiers and policemen are suppposed to serve the government who serves the people. They are not supposed to be political and resign with a change of government. You are never going to have decent soldiers or policemen if the people do not stand behind them when the going gets tough and an outsider threatens your country. That doesn't mean you can't try them yourself, but if you DO NOT try them yourself because you can't find the evidence and proof, don't bother sending them to someone else to do the dirty work. All you do is leave "justice" in someone else's hands and relinquish YOUR OWN RIGHT to justice.
Much like the Serbs seem to have de facto relinquished their right to Kosovo with their silence about what was going on there from WW2 up until Milosevic came to power. No point crying over spilt milk now, mate!
You let someone else manage your own affairs, you lose the right to decide for yourself!
And finally, you must have your head buried in your rear end if you cannot see that the Hague is not about Milosevic or the Serb leaders! It is about eliminating any opposition in Serbia to the NWO economic and political objectives in the Balkans. It is about cowering the Serb people with shame for the purported savagery and genocidal crimes they have allegedly committed. It is about making them compliant and implementing whatever objectives are assigned to them all in the cause of serving their NEW masters.
The guilt trip will be provided by the Hague verdicts, and Serbia will have to kiss a lot of arse to rehabilitate itself.
Note how even their DOS allies are being treated with contempt by the NWO and its minions such as Del Ponte, Holbrooke et al. No better than the SPS! It boils down to the fact you can lie down, smile and be a good whore for a buck or two or you can resist with the truth and get screwed with some self respect in tact because at least you've done your best to avoid having to lie down.
Milosevic, however much of a politician and crook he might or might not have been, has at least rekindled some of that OLD Serb tradition at the Hague! And that seems to be a lot more than I've seen elsewhere so far.
Although I must say the Bosniaks and Croats seem to be more aware of what is in their national interest when it comes to the Hague than the Serbs. Maybe there's a lesson there for you to learn?
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 9:39 pm
Arandjel
When "The Serbs" in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo are de facto found to have committed genocide and horrible atrocities by virtue of the fact that Milosevic and such a large number of the Serb senior military men, soldiers and politicians are found guilty, there is NO WAY Kosovo will be restored to Serbia and to the Serbs "genocidal maniacs"! That's a nice excuse for an Independent Kosovo. The rights of "The Serbs" in Croatia and Bosnia will be non existent as they will then be in a grossly inferior position because of their "genocidal" record. A record that will go down in human and world HISTORY! If that's not a good reason to spend some of your tax money, I don't know what is. Maybe you might consider a voluntary donation like me? After all, you're more of a Serb than me and people like me!
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 9:57 pm
Well said, David. Sadly, the Croats, the Albanians and the Moslems, though much weaker than the Serbs, managed to achieve far more from the Balkans wars of the 1990s.Unlike the Serbs, they seemed to know what they were after. The Serbs did not. On the one hand, they wanted to preserve Yugoslavia. On the other hand, they were prepared to let anyone leave the federation who wanted to leave.
On the one hand, they wanted all Serbs to live in one state. On the other hand, they made no attempt to incorporate the Serb-held areas of Croatia and Bosnia within the newly reconstituted Yugoslavia.
And what is Milosevic's defenseat the Hague? Well, that he didn't give any military support to the Bosnian Serbs or the Krajina Serbs-only humanitarian support. I don't know if that's true or not. It probably is. But then what was the point of creating Serb-autonmous areas that, in the end, there were no plans in place to fight for?
The truth is, neither Milosevic nor Serbs in general had any idea what their war objectives were. The Croats, the Moslems and the Albanians did. Much as today it is the Serbs who are the most abject of all the people in the Balkans in their abject groveling before the so-called international community, without less accomplishments than anyone else to show for it. The Belgrade puppet regime has no policy at all other than to repeat the mantra "We are not Milosevic." And then it's surprised that it's treated with contempt.
However, I remain a great admirer of Milosevic. The Hague tribunal is one of the greatest legal outrages of all time, far worse in many ways than Stalin's show trials of the 1930s. Milosevic's problem is Serbia's problem. He hesitated and doubted while others were ruthlessly pursuing their objectives.
Robert Hessen
Seattle
Washington - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 10:11 pm
Oh, and let me add my voice to the chorus: Where is Vera Martinovic? Important witnesses are testifying, and we're missing the Vera touch. Come back, Vera!
Robert Hessen
Seattle
Washington - Thursday October 23, 2003 at 11:40 pm
David,it makes no sense to suggest that "the Serbs in...Kosovo are found to have committed genocide...", - when even the ICTY Chief Prosecutor(s) did not think so!
There is no charge of 'genocide' - and no such "excuse for an independent Kosovo."
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Friday October 24, 2003 at 1:56 am
GodfredIt doesn't matter whether they did or didn't. The record will show and the popular opinion will be that they did (whether in Bosnia, Croatia Kosovo or wherever). That's enough reason to FORMALLY steal Kosovo (see Holbrook et al) and keep them grovellling elsewhere.
David
Oztralia - Friday October 24, 2003 at 6:58 am
My thoughts on Ante Markovic's appearance at the Hague yesterday...Ante Markovic, the former Prime Minister of the SFRY, testified at against Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague "Tribunal" on Thursday.
While he was being examined by Mr. Nice, Markovic was perfectly content to hurl lies and accusations at Slobodan Milosevic; while making himself sound like the most courageous man who ever lived. He told a story about how he refused to have bodyguards and only protected himself by sleeping with a pistol under his pillow.
But when cross-examination started the tables were quickly turned on Markovic. President Milosevic had the transcripts from the August 21, 1991 SFRY presidency session, and in those transcripts it was shown that it was Markovic who exercised control of the JNA.
The transcript showed Markovic himself talking about how * he * sent JNA into Slovenia to take back the border posts that had been taken over by the Slovenian T.O. The transcript also showed Slobodan Milosevic and the Slovene President Milan Kucan taking about how Prime Minister Markovic had engaged the JNA in Slovenia.
It was clear from the transcripts that it was Markovic who was issuing orders to the JNA, and it is precisely Markovic who was in charge when the Yugoslav Federation began to collapse and the events took place in Dubrovnik and Vukovar.
Markovic couldn't even last 5 minutes under cross-examination before he was begging "judge" May for protection. He said "I'm not the one on trial here, I'm the witness!" and "The accused is trying to turn the indictment against him into an indictment against me, and I ask you to protect me." Mr. Markovic's courage quickly evaporated and he came off looking like a little girl hiding behind mommy's skirts.
Markovic was instantly on the defensive - he was trying to say that he didn't have any power that he was impotent that the JNA wasn't under his command. So here we have the federal prime minister, the president of the Federal Executive Council of Yugoslavia saying that he didn't have any control over the Yugoslav People's Army that it was really the president of one of the republics who controlled the army through some friendship that he had with the Federal Defense Minister.
Markovic was quickly exposed as a liar. He testified about a meeting that he had with Slobodan Milosevic in December of 1991, but what he didn't know was that President Milosevic had acquired his daily agenda book that was kept by his cabinet. This agenda book had all of Markovic's meetings listed in it, who he spoke with on the phone, who he had lunch with, etc...
The agenda book proved that the meeting that he had testified about never happened - he was making it up. Even though Markovic was clearly caught in a lie, he tried to say that it was some sort of a secret meeting - that he as the Federal Prime Minister sneaked away from his cabinet and met with the President of Serbia without telling anybody.
His daily agenda also proves that he was not as unimportant as he professed to be. He frequently met with high level officials both from inside and outside of Yugoslavia.
Ante Markovic could dish it out, but he couldn't take it. Actually - he couldn't even dish it out very well. He accused Slobodan Milosevic of being a dictator. He said that Milosevic had complete and total control over everything. After he made his speech "judge" May asked Markovic to give a specific example that demonstrated that Milosevic had this sort of control. Markovic couldn't think of even one example, so Mr. Nice arranged it so that they could come back to the question after Markovic had a chance to think for a while.
Mr. Nice did in deed ask the question again, and even after a 20 minute recess had taken place and there was lots of time to think about it, Markovic still couldn't think of even one example he could use to prove his baseless charge that Milosevic was a dictator. That fool couldn't even think of a good lie.
Mr. Markovic will be back to finish his cross-examination at a later date at which time Slobo can humiliate him some more.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday October 24, 2003 at 7:43 am
If by any reason Kosovo & Metohia are stolen from Serbia , Serbs as a Nation desapper with it , their cradle will be erased from their legacy , it will be up to the last son of a Serb mother to do the supreme sacrifice to get it back. It is about time to stop playing law abiding and begin thinking on the inevitable. this is not a reality show this is the pride of a nation in jeopardy
M P
Rep de Panama - Friday October 24, 2003 at 7:49 am
A couple of years ago BBC TV News in the UK broadcast an item about Croatia’s President Tudjman.The BBC said that Tudjman secretly recorded all his private conversations with local and world leaders, including those he had with the US Ambassador to Croatia, Galbraith, and with Albright and Holbooke.
After his death the tapes (and there were thousands of them) were removed by the Croatian government.
Apart from this single news item I have never again heard mention of the Tudjman tapes.
One would think that these tapes might be useful to President Milosevic.
During a “Trial” dominated by hearsay, gossip and idle speculation, these tapes would be a real eye-opener.
Michael Thomas
London
UK - Friday October 24, 2003 at 9:55 am
Andy:From your description of Markovic, specifically:
"Mr. Markovic's courage quickly evaporated and he came off looking like a little girl hiding behind mommy's skirts.
... He sounds like a real big girl's blouse. ;-)
I see your Pal's Pals in Palestine, who are not really Pals but Israelis, have just declared they are to build 300 more "settlement" units on occupied territory.
A O quoted that same Pal of yours from his website "bio": "How did the people who stopped Hitler become Hitler?". Obviously meant to be ironic. Pity there isn't a similar unironic quote there: "How did the Israelis ("my" people), whose forbears the NAZIs tried to exterminate, become those NAZis?". But, I forget, discussion of Israeli-Pal issues are largely absent from EC prior to Jenin I, when the "bio" was written.
Class exercise: Which country has the 4th largest military in the World?
"Trial"'s adjourned today? I tried logging on Domovina for the first time in a while. What gives? Hasn't Milosevic had enough rest already? ;-)
Dennis Revell
EmU - Friday October 24, 2003 at 12:03 pm
Dennis,The "trial" only sits 3 days a week now, Tuesday-Thursday and so that is why you didn't see it on Domovina.net.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday October 24, 2003 at 1:20 pm
Dennis - please leave the issue alone. It's been beaten black and blue. And stop throwing around terms like "Nazis" and "genocide" - against Israelis, Arabs, or anyone else. You cannot conceive what that was like, and no one since has come close. Besides, these were the same slanderous epithets thrown on the Serbs in 1990s, along with a slew of others like "rape camps," "death camps," and the infamous "ethnic cleansing."
P M
USA - Friday October 24, 2003 at 3:59 pm
Here's a nice item from AFP. Apparently those elaborate witness protection measures-image distortion, voice distortion, no name on the record, testimony given in secret session-that have made the Milosevic trial a mockery of justice, are unavailable when it comes to prosecuting members of the KLA.
Agence France Presse
October 23, 2003 Thursday
Witnesses intimidated in Kosovo war crimes probes: UN
PRISTINA, Serbia-Montenegro, Oct 23
Chief UN war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte said Thursday witnesses were being intimidated in Kosovo, frustrating attemps to bring ethnic Albanian suspects to justice.
Del Ponte said the main obstacle she faced was gaining access to witnesses and their unwillingness to appear before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).
"Our witnesses receive serious threats so we must fully protect (them) and that is the most important problem," Del Ponte told reporters during a brief visit to the UN-run province of Serbia.
Del Ponte said the ICTY had been investigating three cases against former members of the now-disbanded Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) that fought a separatist war against Belgrade security forces in 1998-99.
Former guerrilla commander Fatmir Limaj was arrested in March along with two other former KLA members for allegedly killing and torturing inmates at the rebels' Lapusnik prison camp during the conflict.
Limaj has been indicted already but Del Ponte said she had not brought official charges against the other two suspects because investigations were ongoing.
"I have no indictment with me," Del Ponte said after meeting the top UN official in Kosovo, Harri Holkeri, and the head of the NATO-led peacekeepers, Holger Kammerhoff.
The prosecutor also complained about a lack of access to documents and archives in Serbia.
"We are expecting documentation from the military archives in Belgrade," she said.
Kosovo has been under UN and NATO control since the end of the war.
Robert Hessen
Seattle
Washington - Friday October 24, 2003 at 4:22 pm
‘Blair’s spin is the porn of politics’So claimed John Major Britain’s previous Prime Minister on the same day del Ponte pretended she was attempting to expedite the arrest of the KLA terror leaders by visiting Pristina:
The Hague Tribunal’s Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte is in Pristina for talks with top-ranking representatives of the UN mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) as well as representatives of the multinational peacekeeping force (KFOR).
The chief prosecutor of the UN war crimes tribunal will push for collecting of evidence on war crimes committed by former members of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA)
Don’t be fooled: this is not a genuine attempt - four and a half years after Milosevic’s indictment - to indict the leaders of the KLA for the atrocities committed under their command. It is a PR stunt worthy of Blair’s ‘pornographic’ spin machine implemented by Alistair Campbell: a one-time contributor to the now defunct pornographic magazine ‘Forum’.
Successive Nato proconsuls in Kosovo have ordered Interpol to release both Thaci (ordered by Steiner) and Ceku (ordered by Holkeri) arrested on international warrants. Thanks to Nato’s protection these guys are fireproof. As David of Oztralia puts it: Nato is never going to allow them to ‘sing like canaries’. And what a pity: what an interesting libretto we should all hear!
So this ICTY farce continues.
We know of the KLA’s war crimes - some 3,000 murdered civilians of which 1,300 are still missing, a quarter of a million DPP’s … We know who are the leaders of the KLA. We have all witnessed their boasts of a policy of murder to terrorise the Kosovo population: their policy to exploit by exaggeration, with the aid of a conniving Nato, the Serbian security forces’ response to this terror: portraying these legitimate counter terror operations as evidence of “ethnic cleansing”. Even though these counter terror actions were no more atrocious than those of the Anglo/US coalition in Afghanistan and Iraq or the Israelis in Palestine. And this imaginary “ethnic cleansing” has been propagandised to the world by hack journalists who now ignore the real ethnic cleansing of Kosovo by Nato’s allies: the KLA.
Is the loss of her fat salary the reason Chief Prosecutor del Ponte did not indict these KLA criminals many years ago? Does she not believe that The Hague court should examine these crimes committed under their command? For what reason does Partial del Ponte, alleged purveyor of justice, selectively ignore the pillars of justice? There was no evidence to indict Milosevic at the time of the indictment because the inidctment was made during the Nato bombardment when it was impossible for evidence to be reliably collected. So this partial treatment of KLA leaders this failure to indict them in spite of the massive evidence of murders alone, including that of del Ponte’s own protected witness K6, screams INJUSTICE.
This del Ponte Pristina visit was just another act - or smokescreen if you prefer - presented during the world’s longest running show trial. A show that Nato wishes to shut down in so far as its allies in the “criminal enterprise” in Kosovo are involved.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday October 24, 2003 at 6:49 pm
Thousands of Serbian policemen rallied Friday in downtown Belgrade to protest a decision by a U.N. tribunal to charge their commander with war crimes.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Friday October 24, 2003 at 7:56 pm
"The law is clear", they have been indicted and they have to be arrested and transferred to The Hague,"they can't be tried locally" . Is this judicial "diktat" an example of what expects whoever defies the "Nuevos Conquistadores"? will any normal citizen from any sovereign country accept this insult? , if local authorities "drop their pants" they are nothing but traitors and the worst disgrace that a nation can suffer. If there is any pride left in Serbia they better start thinking something to get rid of this Quisling government and his supporters
M P
Rep de Panama , on our centenary , Salud¡¡¡ - Friday October 24, 2003 at 9:10 pm
Serbia can hold in absentia open trials , and present the evidence against people like Thaci and Ceku. There is no excuse for Carla Del Ponte not to indict the KLA crimminals ,just because the witnesses are afraid. This type of excuse will only give more latitude to crimminals. I bet that in Serbia are a lot of witnesses who are not afraid to testify against people like Ceku. They should start public trials in Serbia , and you will se how fast Carla will move. Now about the judges; The game is Jamaica against England and Korea
Vasile Ianos
NJ - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 6:53 am
While accepting Peter Taylor's point that mrs. Carla del Ponte's recent visit to Pristina was but a PR stunt on behalf of her NATO and UN employers, I note that the Chief Prosecutor alledgedly "voiced hope" that one of the investigations launched by the Tribunal into crimes committed in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999 is scheduled for completion by the end of 2003 - and that she will then file indictments.Hence mrs. del Ponte obviously believes that ICTY should examine the crimes committed under the KLA leaders command; the need for evidence clearly explains why the Chief Prosecutor did not indict them years ago.
It is true of course that there was no evidence at the time of the indictment of mr. Milosevic and others - as it was impossible to collect this during the NATO air war; but look - and behold that then there also was no Carla del Ponte around!
Have some faith, Peter Taylor!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 7:43 am
Have some faith, Peter Taylor! If I am not mistaken then mrs. del Ponte promised not so long ago that sufficient evidence would be forthcoming by this October to back up the charge against mr. Milosevic for 'genocide' in Bosnia?That appears not to have happened yet; but since mrs. del Ponte seems to have found the time to investigate KLA crimes committed in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999, and even to travel to the scene of these crimes meeting KLA's accomplices and patrons, I trust that it will happen no later than Thursday next week!
Or not at all! If the Chief Prosecutor realizes that her case against mr. Milosevic is hopelessly lost, then it will make sense for mrs. del Ponte to do whatever she is capable of doing to keep her fat salary by bringing Hashim Thaqi and his henchmen to trial.
Not even a Carla del Ponte could lose the case against the KLA gang!
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 7:51 am
So, apparently the trial and the trials by the Nato cohort at the ICTY has not demonstrated enough the real nature of all this international justice?
A question of faith, justice, logic, hope never mind reason! The ICTY will go together with the greatest injustices of history along side the Nazi courts, the Moscow trials, the McCarthy Hearings, the Spanish Inquisition, the Witchcraft of New England, damned them all, damn bourgeois justice!
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 12:49 pm
GodfredI am not alone in my opinion: read for example Edward S Herman’s thoughts at URL: http://www.swans.com/library/art7/herman01.html
The ICTY is not an independent court: as required by a true court of justice. The presiding judge in the Milosevic trial is a New Labour associate of Blair, one of the principal architects of the attack on Serbia. Del Ponte keeps her fat salary just as long as she obeys her master’s voice. As far as Kosovo is concerned it seems the incumbent proconsul relays her instructions. This has been amply demonstrated by the circumstances of the release of Thaci and Ceku who were arrested by Interpol according to international warrants.
Madam del Ponte has made many promises of indictments for KLA crimes over the years starting in 1999 but none have ever materialised.
The original declared approach to indictments of the ICTY was ‘to create a pyramid to the top, focusing on lower-level war criminals first in order to build the chain of evidence to the top’: the so-called ‘bottom up’ approach. Arbour overturned this principle in Kosovo starting with Milosevic and thus without the evidence: introducing the so-called ‘top down’ approach. Under del Ponte neither approach appears to apply to war crimes other than to those allegedly committed by the Serbs.
Consider that in Slovenia under Kucan, Croatia under Tudjman, Bosnia under Izetbegovic and Kosovo under Thaci and associates Serbs have been murdered by the thousands and expelled by the tens of thousands in wars initiated by these leaders: yet not one of these leaders has been indicted by del Ponte: her approach has been neither ‘bottom up’ nor ‘top down’ for Kucan, Tudjman, Izetbegovic or Thaci.
Do you not detect Godfred just a teeny weeny bit of bias here? ‘Right up to the top’ was Partial del Ponte’s claim’: but apparently only for Serbs.
For the war crimes committed on the minorities and loyal Kosovars in Kosovo so far she has indicted only a Junior KLA commander and two of his thugs to appear before a Hague court.
The KLA operated with Nato support during the bombardment and now operates under Nato supervision since the occupation. Blair may be “batty” as PM suspects but he is not that batty. The top of the pyramid as far as many war crimes go in Kosovo leads to the Right Honourable Anthony Blair and chums. So whether you prefer ‘top down’ or ‘bottom up’ with del Ponte and the KLA I regret to disappoint you: it ain’t gonna happen.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 1:09 pm
GC
McCarthy Hearings? Have you read Ann Coulter's latest book? Tailgunner Joe was a great American. His Hearings can in no way be compared to the ICYU. I guess you just slipped up this time.
J, P
USA,Wis - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 4:45 pm
Malaise
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 4:47 pm
The anti-war rally at the Washington Monument was to be followed by a march to the White House and Justice Department. Speakers include former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and Martin Luther King III.
cough, cough
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Saturday October 25, 2003 at 9:51 pm
I read an interesting article of Trebinje.com where a lawyer from Milwaukee, Nikola Kostic states that poor defense by Milosevic will send many Serbs to jail. He states that in June of this year President Bush issued an order that fourteen American lawyer must not defend Serbs at the Hague Tribunal. Kostic and Brasic (from New York) were forced by American government to end their defense of former president of the Serb republic Mr. Krajisnik.The reason for this action by the American government was to quickly judge the Serbs as the guilty party and in the process place Serbia under direct American political control.
Kostic first defended Dusan Tadic in 1995. He has also defended Dokmanovic, Todorovic, Plavsic and Krajisnik. Kostic was asked the reasons why Bush has issued the directive to forbid American lawyers to defend Serbs at the Tribunal.
Kostic states that he received a letter from the State Department in June and under the auspices of economic sanctions against Serbia lawyers defending Serbs had to receive special permission from the State Department to defend Serbs and work in The Hague. The permit was taken from them since Milosevic and Karadjic as well as his last client Krajisnik were placed on the list of dangerous individuals and as a result his permit to work in The Hague was lifted since I was defending those accused of war crimes.
Kostic was asked “you were on your way to the Hague to defend Krajisnik but the State Department did not allow you to go,. How did this take place? Brasic and I received plane tickets from the Tribunal to go to The Hague but on the day of our departure we received a letter from The Hague canceling the tickets with the following explanation that the State department on the intervention of President Bush has blocked our participation.
Bush had ordered that during the war with Iraq, Americans would be denied the right to work for foreigner particularly Iraqis and Serbs who are on the terrorist list as the most dangerous nationals to America. I questioned Judge Meron who is an American, how was he able to work for the tribunal and 13 of Kostic’s friends were not allowed the same right? Meron asked Colin Powel for an explanation and he responded that if we wanted to continue to work for the Serbs we would need a special permit. We applied and received the permit.
Kostic was asked why he and his friend did not continue with the defense of Krajisnik? He states that his hourly stipend was cut to 60 dollars per hour. Hague stated since Krajisnik has assets worth 1.5 million he should pay for his own defense. We know that Krajisnik does not have that kind of money since Muslims have taken over his apartment in Sarajevo he does not get any rent. We did not leave Krajisnik because of money but because there is a campaign by the Tribunal and USA against us who defend Serbs.
What was this campaign all about? The Tribunal knows that they do not have any evidence against Krajisnik. He was a diplomat of the governing body of Republika Serpska and did not issue any orders of consequence. As a result charges against him were broadened with some 30, 000 witnesses. We narrowed it to 50 witnesses to which May, Kwon and Robinson agreed but the Tribunal did not. Since we were familiar with Anglo-Saxon and Bosnian Jurisprudence the court decided to hold the trial judge Ori from Holland under the rules of European Jurisprudence.
What does this mean for the Accused? This means that evidence from all other cases is accepted without the right of testimony and as a result the case against Krajisnik is speeded up and he has no right to call witnesses in his defense on issues already dealt with in other cases.
Why is the Tribunal important for Krajisnik? It is important under the rules of European Jurisprudence because what is decided in his case will determine Karadjic’s and Mladic’s fate.
CIA has asked you many times about Radovan karadjic and Mladic and do you know where they are? He lives in Bosnia and USA and Europe is no longer interested in finding them. First USA and NATO are now our allies and they want to keep the Bosnian Serbs on side since they are capable of getting them into another Balkan War. The Tribunal is out of money and their barking is political indication that they are still active, nothing else.
You have met Milosevic. What are his chances to against the indictment? Milosevic is in very poor health and he will die in his cell. He has made a grave mistake defending himself since the task is immense. He gets lost in his defense and is not able to follow all the evidence presented against him. He will be found guilty if he lives through the process and in the end all the evidence used in his trial will be used against other Serbs and they will be sentenced on the same evidence without the ability to call witnesses.
You have been in the Hague for eight years , what is your view of the Tribunal re: The Serbs, Croats and Muslims? When Goldstone was in charge the court ran strictly by the rules but when Arbour and Del Ponte came it became a tool of American political agenda. The process must be speeded up and Serbian people must be declared guilty of Genocide and only if necessary Croats, Albanians and Muslims must be brought to trial. This is necessary to justify placing Serbia under direct control of USA and EU since Serbia is the main factor in the stability of the Balkans. Since Serbs and Croats do not want to live with the Muslims and Albanians both must be held on a short leash to prevent another war in the area. Once they proclaim us as guilty of Genocide they will than place a yoke around our necks to pay war damages which will enslave Serbia into the next century.
What are the reasons for Clinton’s visit to Srebrenica and Kosovo? Main reason is to placate the Arab world. The Muslim lobby led by Holbrook, Albright and Wesley Clarke was created to establish close ties with the Arab world while at the same time this lobby is anti Serb. This lobby receives funding from the Arabs via Cypress. Clarke by all definitions of war criminals should be charged for his indiscriminate killing of Serbian civilians and the use of prohibited weapons (but even war criminals can run for president in America My comment. This Lobby is at work to get Clarke and Hillary Clinton on the Democratic ticket against Bush.
To spare you further translation, Kostic suggests that Serbs like Tapuskovic and himself are being eliminated from the Hague because they were to effective. He states that the CIA has a dossier on him and he is constantly shadowed.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Sunday October 26, 2003 at 11:53 am
Democracy and Freedom:
U.S. Ban on U.S. Lawyers Derails Case
By KATARINA KRATOVAC The Associated Press June 19, 2003
THE HAGUE, Netherlands - A U.S. government ban on American lawyers defending war crimes suspects derailed a second case at the Yugoslav tribunal Thursday.
John Ackerman and David Cunningham said in court they could no longer represent Radoslav Brdjanin without fear of U.S. prosecution. The judge said he had no alternative but to adjourn the trial.
The ban, part of a U.S. executive order to cut off support to about 200 people and organizations from the former Yugoslavia blacklisted by the U.S. government, was made public in a document released by the court on Wednesday.
It outlaws providing goods, services and funds to those people, including legal representation, U.S. Treasury Officials said. But lawyers can apply separately for permission to represent Balkan war crimes suspects, they said. Brdjanin, who has pleaded innocent to 12 counts of war crimes, said in court he would "be devastated" if his American lawyers were not allowed to continue. "It would be disastrous for me," he said.
Presiding judge Carmel Agius said the inclusion of lawyers in the ban was probably a "misinterpretation" by the U.S. Treasury Department. Tribunal spokesman Jim Landale said the court was in contact with the U.S. government and hoped "a solution will be worked out shortly." About 20 American lawyers are defending suspects at the U.N. tribunal, established in 1993 by the U.N. Security Council to prosecute individuals responsible for war crimes during the Balkan wars of the 1990s. Many of the people listed are indicted war crimes suspects and some are already on trial at the U.N. court, including former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.
In a document made public Wednesday, three American lawyers requested an immediate suspension of the case against Bosnian Croat Gen. Tihomir Blaskic, saying the Treasury Department had told them they could be prosecuted for representing him.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Sunday October 26, 2003 at 7:59 pm
The US bans any legal representation for the accused at the Hague. Sounds great... You're guilty before the court decides so, and whatsmore, we're not going to allow US lawyers to represent you before the law. Sounds like Guantanamo to anyone? Maybe they can extend that to those who are accused before the US courts by getting rid of public defenders in general!To sum it up, the Government says that US lawyers cannot work AGAINST the interests of the US and its objectives.
And of course, the objective of the US govt is... Justice! :-) :-)
"Hang them first and DON'T ask any questions later"! Welcome to the neo-Wild, Wild West!
David
Oztralia