 MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE |
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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.
Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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- discussion archive
- Monday October 27, 2003 at 12:36 am
I was just organizing my files. No posts from Vera for ages. The length of the forum effectively made it impossible for her to access it. For awhile the topic was so ... convoluted. Is she still reading this forum? Watching the trial? I appreciate reading everybody's observations. We need them. If only this got one tenth the coverage that OJ Simpson got ... So I do hope Vera Martinovic will decide to rejoin us here and give her point of view.
Nikole J
Canada - Monday October 27, 2003 at 8:24 am
‘Madeleine’s War’This morning BBC Radio Five Live broadcast an interview with Madeleine Albright who was plugging her book of memoirs titled: ‘Madam Secretary’.
I prepared a text message question for Madam Albright but was unable to deliver it because the host, Julian Worricker, failed to announce the text Phone Number during the programme that lasted from 11.15 to 12.00 am GMT.
Maybe someone can relay the question for me:
DOES MADAM ALBRIGHT REGRET AIDING KLA ISLAMIC TERROR WHICH HAS SINCE MURDERED THOUSANDS AND ETHNICALLY CLEANSED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS FROM KOSOVO
I realise that this request is a waste of time because her subsequent answers to other contributors revealed that she has no regrets. Still I would like to hear her direct response to such a question.
During the programme she boasted of her intervention in Kosovo a number of times. She brought up the expression ‘Madeleine’s War’ which she understood was initially intended to be a pejorative expression but now she claims “I am very proud of it”
Responding to a Kosovar’s glowing tribute to her for standing up to the “Genocide” she remarked without qualification that problems still existed: as if the Serbs were still to blame for the mess and terror that still now exist in Kosovo.
Rubin is another of Blair’s dreadful chums and fellow war criminals who frequently appear on BBC programmes. Last week he appeared on the radio programme ‘Any Questions’. This perpetual campaign of calumny against the Serbs aided and abetted by the BBC is nauseating but sadly effective.
The so-called ‘balanced’ BBC does not give equal time to the Serb side of the Kosovo problem. Consequently the vast majority of British people do not know of the tragedy that has befallen Kosovo. Blair’s BBC along with the ICTY trial of Milosevic run by his New Labour associate, Judge Richard May, intends that their ignorance continues.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday October 27, 2003 at 10:28 am
Disproportionate Force“Little wonder, then, that Stars and Stripes, the American military’s own newspaper, reported this month that one third of the soldiers in Iraq suffered from low morale. And is it any wonder, that being the case, that US forces in Iraq are shooting down the innocent, kicking and brutalizing prisoners, trashing homes and - eyewitness testimony is coming from hundreds of Iraqis - stealing money from houses they are raiding?”
Are the trial judges taking note of this conduct of Anglo/US forces during counter terror operations in Iraq in so far as the charges of disproportionate force against Serbian security forces are concerned: And is the high command only responsible when these actions are carries out by Serbian security forces?
If so perhaps Judge May can explain these new principles of jurisprudence?
At least Milosevic had a genuine and authentic reason for his forces operations in Kosovo: to defend Serbia from an al-Qaeda backed terror campaign. The declared reasons for Blair and Bush’s invasion and occupation of Iraq - as opposed to the probable real reason: oil - not only have been changed but also are, in every case, of doubtful legality.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Monday October 27, 2003 at 3:35 pm
Tribunal appoints legal counsel for Milosevic | 18:54 | FoNetTHE HAGUE -- Monday - The trial chamber of the Hague Tribunal has appointed Belgrade lawyer Branko Rakic as legal counsel to Slobodan Milosevic, the tribunal announced today.
“Rakic is a legal expert with whom the defendant can communicate in order to prepare his defence and it is necessary that he met the criteria envisaged by the court rules,” said Judge Richard May handing down the decision.
Rakic, as Milosevic’s counsel, will be allowed privileged contacts with Milosevic without surveillance and access to evidential material.
Radic was present in the court’s gallery last week during the testimony of the last prime minister of the former Yugoslavia, Ante Markovic.
Robert Hessen
Seattle
Washington - Monday October 27, 2003 at 4:34 pm
REMARKABLE, from an Editorial of THE W.POST:"However, a Serbian war crimes trial would serve no purpose "if the process would become corrupt or be dropped altogether."
Considering the long-term impact of this issue "is important, and not only in order to ensure that some form of justice is done. A thorough understanding of the past, and of the atrocities committed - BY ALL, - will also help prevent these still-fragile [Balkan] political entities from going to war with one another again."
Serjoe B
Italy - Monday October 27, 2003 at 5:35 pm
Branko Rakic may have been appointed Mr. Milosevic counsel giving a great victory to the prosecutor but has Mr. Milosevic accepted it? Last I heard and amici curiae Kay (NATO) warned the chamber (pot) against such a move, Mr. Milosevic was in no mood to do such a thing and he will simply stop collaborating with the court as well with the court appointed counsel. This is simple intolerable since the rules allow for self defence and the Judges have up held this right despite the protestations of Mr. Nice (NATO)
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday October 27, 2003 at 5:45 pm
Does anyone have the video-audio (archive) link to today's hearing where judge May named Branko Rakic Mr. Milosevices consel?
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday October 27, 2003 at 5:54 pm
"Pay attention, these gentlemen (Yanks) do to you with the chequebook what the Nazi used to do with the pistol"
Fritz Lang
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Monday October 27, 2003 at 6:16 pm
The doors are getting bigger and bigger and the hinges smaller and smaller . They are so predictable and so obvious that they have forgotten how to put together things so they can look believable , poor ICTY all that money spent just to cover guilt and arrogance , and worst of all law "professionals" that have to live with the shame of doing the opposite to the oath they took . It is simply pathetic.
M P
Rep de Panama, after 100 y . free at last - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 3:53 am
B92 seems to be the ONLY source regarding appointment of counsel for Milosevic. At the beginning of todays' hearing Milosevic did not raise this issue so maybe B92 has it wrong again?
David
Oztralia - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 4:26 am
For those who want to know the REAL Bosnia story in the 1990s, take a look at Izetbegovic's "Islamic Declaration" and "Islam Between East and West".Then go and have a look at Milosevic's speech at Gazimestan (you know the one which the Other Side at the Hague quoted an extract from) but make sure you read the entire speech!
Compare the two and then decide who was who and who was for what!
All you RATBAG journalists and media hacks and whores can hide in shame for twisting REALITY to the extent you have done. Or is it that you cannot hear or read for yourselves and only spill out swill your masters order you to spill? You're a disgrace to the human race. Pure effluent. Grow a conscience you a**holes! Stop spreading crap, lies and disinformation, start reporting the TRUTH for a change.
I defy you to prove Nebojsa Malic is a liar:
http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m102303.html
911 in the US seems like small time compared to the 911s that have been foisted on Serbia. And by the same "shahaad" crowd at that! Get a clue, Mr and Mrs America!
David
Oztralia - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 5:25 am
And while you're at it, think about this report in the Southeast Europe Times: "Madeline Rice from the UN office in Sarajevo revealed that around 90% of the children appearing in the American porn industry come from the Balkans".Must be under the "free trade and democracy" banner the humanitarians imported into the Balkans over the last decade. Maybe we should hear a little more about that too. Or is that supposed to be under the "cone of silence" too?
Get Smart, folks.
David
Oztralia - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 6:35 am
There is still hope for countries who aim for a non dependence to the subjugating NWO powers , luckily for the world there has emerged a new world figure to listen to , Mr. Luiz Ignacio Da Silva "Lula" and the South American giant Brasil , here is the opportunity to build an alliance for the 21st. century and be free at last .
M P
Rep de Panama - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 7:33 am
I guess these guys must be Milosevic supporters too!
http://www.cato.org/dailys/03-07-02.html
- Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 12:01 pm
Who did ever suggest, that "it's better to convict one villain than none at all"?Where and when did any "proponent" of the "trial" against Milosevic take such a position?
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D RE N M A R K - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 1:36 pm
KLA murdered Kosovo AlbaniansUnited Nations police have arrested five Kosovo Albanians suspected of committing war crimes during the province's 1998-99 war, a UN official said Tuesday.
"Five Kosovo Albanian men have been arrested under warrants relating to war crimes," UN police spokesman Dimitri Priakhin told AFP.
Local media said the five, who were arrested in southern Kosovo on Monday, were suspected of kidnapping, serious bodily harm and the murder of four fellow Albanians in early 1999.
The five are believed to have been with the ethnic Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army, a rebel group that fought a separatist war against Yugoslavia.
A fairer description of the KLA might be:
A terrorist group backed by al-Qaeda including Mujahedin and supported by Nato that abducted, tortured and murdered anyone who got in its way: especially loyal Albanians?
According to one time Albanian ‘Prime Minster’ of Kosovo, Bujar Bukoshi, more than a thousand ethnic Albanians have been murdered by the KLA. And how many more? Yet the KLA leaders have never been invited to The Hague to explain these accusations nor will they ever be. Even these small fry will be fried in Kosovo out of sight of the Great Show Trial which, apart from a few token gestures, is reserved for Serbs: to show they alone are responsible for Nato’s crimes.
Now here’s a thought: Perhaps the Serbs, at least the regular forces as distinct from paramilitary forces, are not responsible for any of the murders in Kosovo: except those killed in legitimate counter terror operations. We know that the Nato war criminals killed between 500 and 1,000 Albanians with their bombs in Kosovo alone: especially with their favoured and illegitimate cluster-bombs. Bukoshi claims that more than a thousand ethnic Albanians were victims of the KLA especially victims of its Mujahedin fighters. We know that some 2,000 of Kosovo’s minority populations were murdered: presumably not by the Serbs who were the majority of these victims.
Indeed these facts are supported by the ICTY indictment: according to which Milosevic’s forces are held responsible for some 350 ‘murders’ only including Racak which was a legitimate battle. So why does the court ignore the some 3,500 murders which are clearly the responsibility of the KLA, its Nato allies and perhaps Serbian paramilitaries which were not the responsibility of the Serbian Government. Even that craven nincompoop Cook admits that his unholy alliance was responsible for more killing.
The original rules of procedure of the court as expounded by Jurist Goldstone -‘to build up to the top of the pyramid’ - were abandoned by Expedient Arbour in order to pin the blame for Nato’s illegal Serbia assault on Milosevic: thus he was indicted without any evidence.
No wonder Blair’s heart keeps racing as he contemplates the Hell Hole he has created, as principal architect, in Kosovo: not only must he now realise he is a prime candidate for the ICC over his illegal attack upon Iraq but this ICTY can only ignore his position at the top of the Kosovo “pyramid” - just above the KLA commanders - by condemning itself to eternal damnation.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 1:37 pm
HTML Correction
Hopefully - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 1:51 pm
GodfredRead the penultimate paragraph
From a URL published anonymously above.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 2:33 pm
Today at the Hague Tribunal:http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg102803.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 2:44 pm
David,B-92 reported that story on Monday and they said:
Tribunal appoints legal counsel for Milosevic | 18:54 | FoNet
THE HAGUE -- Monday - The trial chamber of the Hague Tribunal has appointed Belgrade lawyer Branko Rakic as legal counsel to Slobodan Milosevic, the tribunal announced today.
“Rakic is a legal expert with whom the defendant can communicate in order to prepare his defence and it is necessary that he met the criteria envisaged by the court rules,” said Judge Richard May handing down the decision.
Rakic, as Milosevic’s counsel, will be allowed privileged contacts with Milosevic without surveillance and access to evidential material.
Radic was present in the court’s gallery last week during the testimony of the last prime minister of the former Yugoslavia, Ante Markovic.
///END B92 - FoNet Report///
There was no hearing on Monday, so how on Earth could they have Mr. May have said anything, what's more I have never heard Richard May use the word "defendant" he always calls Milosevic "the accused."
There was no mention of this at all today, and if the story was true then undoubtedly somebody would have said something.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 2:52 pm
There is, however, a Branko Rakic who has been close to President Milosevic. Maybe he has been given the same status as Mr. Tomanovic and Mr. Ojdjanovic.
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Tuesday October 28, 2003 at 3:30 pm
Peter Taylor writes: "No wonder Blair’s heart keeps racing as he contemplates the Hell Hole he has created, as principal architect, in Kosovo: not only must he now realise he is a prime candidate for the ICC over his illegal attack upon Iraq but this ICTY can only ignore his position at the top of the Kosovo “pyramid” - just above the KLA commanders - by condemning itself to eternal damnation. "
And one might also throw in Cook and Robertson et all who so eagerly supported the press conferences by the "Kosovo Government in Exile"!
Does anyone still entertain any illusions that the KLA leaders will be brought to justice by the criminal ICTY proceedings? Why that could open up a whole can of slime! Imagine the British and US governments being found guilty of supporting drug runners and islamic fundamentalists in their corporate takeover of smaller countries. Imagine NATO acting as their air force! Imagine the people of the US and Europe discovering they have been duped and that what has REALLY been done in their names and in the name of humanitarianism, justice and democracy was a sham!
Look no further than what is going on in Kosovo today. Look no further than what is going on in Bosnia today. Look no further than what is going on in Iraq today. Look no further than what is going on in Afghanistan today. Look no further than what is going on in the iCTY today.
And look no further than what is going on in other parts of the world and what is going to go on in Iran and the rest of the Middle East tomorrow.
David
Oztralia - Wednesday October 29, 2003 at 2:22 pm
Today at The Hague:http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg102903.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Wednesday October 29, 2003 at 7:35 pm
Witness B1780: ....“the Serbs” were cutting Muslim heads off and kicking them about the room, they were cutting off hands, they were carrying out mass-executions of 7 men at a time, they would use knives to cut the skin between people’s fingers and then lick the blood off of their knives with their tongues...
Sounds a bit like "the blood sucking Jews" of the 1930s and 1940s, eh? Maybe the Serbs are so primitive they hadn't heard of AIDS and things?
Who said Goebbels was dead? It's one thing for the media to play up the crap to make money or to execute their masters' bidding but it's another thing when the Prosecution indulges in providing "evidence" such as the above garbage. Good on you Tapuskovic for the points you made and which show what this ICTY farce is all about.
Mr May didn't even blink! Even he must have been stunned and embarrassed by what was being presented as "evidence".
As for the young girl, what a waste of the court's time that was! She couldn't even identify Milosevic, let alone the gunman.
And as for B1448, cross examination was restricted to the finding of the arms shipment papers allegedly from Belgrade. Does anyone know what May's rationale was for the restriction? Was there something to hide about this witness and his circumstances except for the fact that he allegedly found papers which did not exist when he found them?
Sad as all the above nonsense is, you just can't help but laugh at the sheer stupidity and incompetence of the prosecution and the so called "judges" who allow such garbage to enter the court.
I note how Mr Nice passes on the more "dramatic" bull**** witnesses to juniors so he doesn't get associated with their garbage. That's about the only smart thing he's done in this farce they call a "trial"!
Mr May, could you please order that the prosecution stop introducing such crap and save the Chamber's valuable time, not to mention mine!? Or maybe you might limit the prosecution's examinations to FACTS rather than wild uninvestigated fiction and blatant propaganda stories. Thereby you will automatically limit Milosevic's cross examination without resorting to "judicial decrees" and perversion of the judicial process.
David
Oztralia - Wednesday October 29, 2003 at 8:41 pm
The best part was when Tapuskovic blasted the prosecution for not having verified the facts alleged in the mosaic of colorful squares called the witness , judge May (NATO) had to acknowledge the point.
Pathetic bunch.
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday October 29, 2003 at 8:47 pm
Meanwhile back at the ranch . . .
Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La - Wednesday October 29, 2003 at 11:07 pm
Gogol: Shauna the African American woman captured in Iraq in the first days of the war had two broken ankles from battle wounds gets 30 percent disability pension while Jessica the Caucasian pin-up girl whose wounds were not as severe and who was lionized in heroic proportions (by the way all lies) gets 80 percent disability. When will the African American community wake up? They are asleep like the people of Serbia.
Walter Trkla
Kamloops BC
Canada - Thursday October 30, 2003 at 2:26 am
Walter
As Mr Kwon might put it: 30 percent is better than NO percent!
Or ANY trial is better than no trial.
Or ANY evidence is better than NO evidence.
It's a clear case of BLACK and WHITE! Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 30, 2003 at 10:49 am
Does anyone still entertain any illusions that the KLA leaders will be brought to justice by the ICTY?I do! As I believe that there are no hearings in the socalled 'trial! against mr. Milosevic tomorrow, I guess that today was the last chance for the Chief Prosecutor to bring forward any decisive evidence promised to emerge by this month of October?
Hence it may now be time for her to live up to her fat salary by bringing Hashim Thaqi and his henchmen from the KLA to trial.
I do maintain that not even a Carla del Ponte could lose the case against this gang!
Ref. postings of October 25, 2003 and earlier.
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K - Thursday October 30, 2003 at 3:14 pm
Today in The Hague:http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg103003.htm
Today in Belgrade:
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/workers.htm
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Thursday October 30, 2003 at 6:00 pm
Andy Wilcoxson writes:
Mr. May the so-called “judge” told President Milosevic, “You will ask the questions that we order you to ask or else you won’t be able to ask any questions at all.”
Nice summary Andy, not just of the day's proceedings but of the proceedings in general. Stalin and Hitler couldn't have done better themselves!
Godfred,
Before Thaqi et al get to the Hague, they'll join Izetbegovic and Tudjman for a "brief" stint in "Nirvana". His reward will be that he gets to play with the 7 virgins too. That will make a change from the whores he's been playing with down here!
They're not going to let the likes of him, a small time fish, blow the whole thing to pieces. Imagine the fallout.
They got rid of Kennedy for a lot less!
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 30, 2003 at 6:52 pm
For Godfred...
http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m-col.html
I'd say it's a fair thing to say that the "West" (read US government et al) are now hostages to the Albanian mafia. Why it would be like the Thaci Papers as opposed to the Valachi Papers if the Thaci vulture decides to "sing like a canary" at the Hague!
David
Oztralia - Thursday October 30, 2003 at 7:51 pm
Carla , what's next? , believe me I have been trying to find answers , reasons , evidence , logic to your statements , deadlines , arrogant "superiority" , insulting peoples inteligence with phony arguments and sadly I have nobody to blame but myself for wasting my time with somebody that,s gotten less dignity than a pubic hair . Time for me to go fishing . Hasta la vista amigos I am going to celebrate our centenary , and no way Carla is going to spoil it .
M P
Rep de Panama - Friday October 31, 2003 at 1:17 am
For a month I have not been participating here, either because the page was too long for me to access with the low-speed connection, or because our TV B92 stopped transmitting the proceedings, or else I was extremely busy with my work (or any combination of the above). Now the broadcasts have been resumed and I found a lull in my schedule, so I’ll try to go back to a couple of recent witnesses.But, before that, let me just say that I couldn’t agree more with Christopher Black when he states that this is not a trial and ICTY is not a court and it should be abolished. The question is - how? I’m not a learned jurist, able to initiate legal action before the International Court of Justice on the matter of legality of ICTY. I leave that to those qualified and organized to do so. This legal abomination should be challenged by legal profession and their failure to act shows how low they have bowed to politics and money. All I can do is keep pointing out why ICTY is not a proper court and why it should be abolished, so that more people could understand that. And this can be achieved only by analysing what’s going on there. We must ‘discuss the details of the daily farce as it unfolds’ - it shows the type of witnesses that ICTY produces, the utter lawlessness of its procedure, and most of all - the absurdity of its pretentious indictments and the lack of any solid case against Milosevic. And although ICTY will be closed on completion of its political task, it’s useful to link that political task to each and every one of the “tribunal’s” actions and utterances. That will probably not prevent the political games that are played, but at least these games will come out in the open a little bit more.
A batch of recent witnesses had been dubbed as important. I would rather call them “important”. Milan Milanovic was presented by IWPR’s Emir Suljagic as the ‘former Croatian Serb official’ who proved that Milosevic ‘controlled both the Croatian Serb military and the Yugoslav National Army, JNA’. Judith Armatta of CIJ hails Milanovic as ‘an insider witness’ whose ‘testimony raises the Accused from the supporting player to director’ in the Serb-controlled area of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem (SBWS). Milanovic proved nothing of the above.
One of the crucial “proofs” of the control of Milosevic over the goings on in the area was the presence of Radovan Stojicic, nicknamed Badza. One would expect that Milanovic, claiming to be a friend of Badza, would finally explain who the man was and who had sent him. This is what came as a testimony on the issue by this witness.
He said that ‘the Territorial Defence (TO) of SBWS was put into a somewhat more equitable position when Radovan Stojicic Badza arrived.’ He provided minutes of the meetings of the Government of SAO (Serbian Autonomous Region) mentioning Badza in November 1991 as a Commander of the TO, but being replaced by Zivko Trajkovic in February 1992. To a direct question by Ms Uertz-Retzlaff from the Prosecution: ‘You have described Radovan Stojicic’s arrival in the region in your statement, and you have also described him as being the commander of the TO in the region. My question is: Did he come as a volunteer to the region or was he there as an official from Serbia?’ To which Milanovic answered: ‘I think that he did not come as a volunteer.’ Prosecutor insisted: ‘Why do you think that? What are your observations to that effect?’ Milanovic answer was: ‘He never said that he had come as a volunteer, and on the ground, our understanding was that he had been sent there by the official authorities of the Republic of Serbia.’ Prosecutor tried to strengthen that by adding: ‘You described how he arrived with personnel from the MUP Serbia (Ministry of Defence) and also with MUP Serbia equipment. Did he continue to receive equipment from Serbia?’ Milanovic said: ‘Partially, yes.’ The Prosecutor pressed on: ‘Did he continue to receive his salary from MUP Serbia? Do you know that?’ Milanovic said: ‘As far as I know, yes.’ Prosecutor asked later on: ‘Do you know whether Mr Stojicic reported back to Belgrade; and if so, to whom?’ The witness answered: ‘I think that he sent reports to Belgrade, but I don’t know who to.’ A bit later on, the Prosecutor asked: ‘Was Radovan Stojicic close to Mr Milosevic?’ Milanovic answered: ‘Well, according to my information, he was.’ The Prosecutor insisted: ‘Did he communicate - did Stojicic communicate directly with Milosevic?’ Milanovic provided the following answer: ‘As far as I know, after 1992, yes. As far as 1991 and 1992, I cannot say that.’ And that was all ever provided on Badza.
One can conclude the following from the above: the testimony is based entirely on ‘I think’, ‘he never said’ but ‘our understanding was’, ‘I think, but I don’t know’ and ‘I cannot say that’. Hard and precise evidence, no doubt. Also, it is probable that Badza had continued to receive his salary, but so did all other volunteers; that some equipment from Serbia arrived, it was the common knowledge. The ‘personnel from MUP Serbia’ he arrived with - that was a handful of volunteers, again a common knowledge. And he did communicate with Milosevic, but only after being replaced by Trajkovic at the position of the local TO commander after few short months (after he had returned to MUP Serbia, he became Assistant Minister of the Interior Affairs, so it was normal that he should sometimes communicate with the President). All the rest boils to nothing. So, this is the kind of evidence that ICTY provides (and coming from an “important” witness, no less).
As for the control of Milosevic over the Serb forces in SBWS and the JNA, here’s the “evidence” provided.
Goran Hadzic, the President of SAO, was ‘very close to Mr Milosevic, according to what Hadzic himself said’ and he had consultations and meeting with Milosevic, again ‘according to what Hadzic himself said’ (remember that the later witness of the Prosecution, Ms Dobrila Gajic-Glisic, stated exactly the opposite, namely that Milosevic did not even know who that guy Hadzic was). Which was the proof offered by this witness of how Hadzic could get such a high position? He simply said: ‘Well, in my very own opinion, because of his links with Belgrade.’ Again, solid-gold evidence, full of irrefutable details: his very own opinion.
Likewise, when asked about the close connections of Milosevic with the officials of the southern part of Krajina, namely Babic and Martic, the witness said that these connections ‘were generally known through the media’! Who needs a witness when there’s the general knowledge from the media.
When it comes to the role of JNA, Madam Prosecutor directed and combined her questions thus as to make unclear whether they apply to the period of 1990-92 or later. That is important, because in the first period there was still the former Yugoslavia and the JNA on the whole of its territory. So, when the Prosecutor asks about the Novi Sad Corps, the JNA and the TO units from Serbia participating in the military activities within the region, and the witness confirms all that, you have to bear in mind that this applies to the former period, when it was perfectly normal and constitutional (the JNA military areas did not coincide with the republic borders; Novi Sad Military Area included Vukovar as well). The Prosecutor maliciously coupled such questions and answers with the previous questions concerning the payments that the SAO officers continued to receive even when JNA had transformed itself into VJ, i.e. after Croatia became independent and SAO had became UNPA Zone - a perfectly legal and open practice, having in mind they used to be JNA employees.
Another trick of the Prosecution was to refer to the previously given written statement (tendered without the examination-in-chief) and then to ask a question which only hints and alleges that some wrongdoings on the part of Serbia or JNA were done. Such was the case with the issue of the unit called the Scorpions: judging by the unclear question this must have been some special unit from Serbia who fought first in Krajina, then in Bosnia and finally in Kosovo. But in his cross-examination Milosevic established that this unit were local guys from Krajina, engaged by the witness himself as the paid security for their oil pipeline, who later on went even to Kosovo, only to be involved in some crimes there, for which they are currently standing trial (VJ prosecuted them immediately after Kosovo events, as testified by general Vasiljevic, another witness for the Prosecution). So, here’s the useful purpose of this newly established practice of statements without direct examination: to muddle the issues and to compel Milosevic to spend more time clearing the mess.
This witness provided fresh new evidence, never heard before: all the people in charge of the Krajina military were former JNA officers. Wonder of wonders. Should they have engaged ice-cream sellers instead? Did Slovenian TO engage village teachers? Was not Izetbegovic’s Army led by ex-JNA generals? Ditto for Tudjman’s military (and Tudjman himself was a former JNA officer). Agim Ceku was one, too.
To a direct question from Milosevic of whether the General Staff of the JNA commanded any operations in the territory of the Republika Srpska Krajina (after the Serbian Army of Krajina was formed in 1994), the witness (an Assistant Defence Minister) answered: ‘I have no such information.’
The only piece of evidence that sounded serious was a statement that ‘a special unit from the MUP of Serbia’ consisting of no less than 100 men came over. But, when Milosevic cross-examined about it, the witness had to confirm this unit consisted entirely of the policemen fired from the Croatian police (because they were the Serbs), who were all born and lived in Croatia. And when Milosevic asked about the claim they belonged to the MUP of Serbia, the witness had to admit he assumed (or rather invented) that, on the basis of the uncertain knowledge that some of these policemen are today employed in the MUP of Serbia!
The Prosecutor ominously presented couple of invoices regarding the companies from Krajina and issued by the banks from Serbia, in hope this would prove the sinister connection. But the witness himself destroyed this by further explaining that with the beginning of the hostilities, Croatia had abolished the system of payment transactions, so all the companies from Krajina simply had to open their bank accounts in Serbia, and some of them also provided funding for a training camp, for example, before the proper Krajina bodies had been established and taxes collected for the budget. That’s why Nice kept interrupting his later witness Ms Gajic-Glisic all the time, preventing her from elaborating her answers. Well, his aide Ms Uertz-Retzlaff was less cunning.
Ms Prosecutor also tried to maliciously present in her question that, after the Vance-Owen plan had been adopted, JNA left behind some vehicles and Krajina authorities painted them over. Again, the witness explained too much, saying that under the plan TO had been disbanded and its permitted weapons were painted over in blue to fit into 2 police brigades. Again, a blank for the Prosecution.
[to be continued]
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Friday October 31, 2003 at 1:21 am
[continuation]By that time, the Prosecutor was plainly desperate, so she started to openly lead the witness with her questions, for example when she asked who commanded 5 TO brigades that had continued to exist even after the Vance-Owen plan. The witness had the presence of mind to ask her about the time-frame she refers to, so she had to say it was the time while SAO still existed; as for later, the witness explained that after the Croats had violated the ceasefire, the TO which was in plainclothes only then took over their artillery from the double-key system and then the Krajina Army was established. So, the TO did not exist under the Plan, as was suggested.
And again when Madam Prosecutor was desperately leading with her questions, Milosevic had to intervene twice, warning her that she cannot ask whether the local Colonel ‘coordinated his actions with someone in Serbia’ when there were no operations in the region at that time at all, so she had to rephrase the question. She also was not supposed to say in her question that the Krajina officials wrote a letter to Serbian and not to federal authorities regarding money matters, when the letter in question was plainly addressed to the National Bank of Yugoslavia, and only after that to the Governments of the Republics. But, by then it became clear the Prosecution has nothing. The poor woman even asked whether it’s true that the witness had ‘direct access to the Chief of Staff of VJ, General Zivota Panic’, but the witness simply said they had met at a party, exchanged telephones and ‘occasionally we would talk to each other’.
When she asked the question about some funds that were intercepted inside the territory of Krajina and ‘did Mr Milosevic get involved in this?’, Milanovic explained briefly how this internal squabble happened and added at the and: ‘Mr Milosevic had no part in this at all.’
How desperate the Prosecutor was when she invited the witness to recognise few intercepted telephone conversations, and after Milosevic protested, claiming that Milanovic had only met these people once or twice, the witness actually admitted that he never met Mladic ‘but he has a specific voice recognisable through the media’ and as regards Karadzic, ‘I met him only once, in 1991, but I recognize that voice from the media’. Nevertheless, the witness was allowed to “identify” the voices even of these two! The concept of a witness is strangely twisted and extended at ICTY. Actually, the CD with these intercepts had been simply tendered into evidence without being listened to in the courtroom (presumably, it had been played to the witness beforehand and he signed the declaration that he had identified the voices); and Milosevic said he never even received this CD in advance, as he should have; the same goes for some video footage. The concept of presenting evidence is strangely distorted at ICTY.
When asked about the Ovcara case, the witness said he can speak of it ‘only on the basis of rumours’ and that he knew nothing about it at the time. When cross-examining, Milosevic reminded him that he stated he had been the sole source of local info for Badza when he came and for those months he was there; the witness confirmed. Milosevic asked whether it was therefore clear that Badza knew nothing about Ovcara himself; the witness confirmed. Talking about skilful cross-examination! Another interesting piece of info: Mrs Albright herself came to talk with the witness and prompted the UN to investigate and find the site (pretty much as she was personally involved in the Srebrenica case).
The witness only met Milosevic a couple of times, as a part of large delegations from the Krajina. Different political matters had been discussed and some suggestions were made by Serbian side, but to a direct question of whether Krajina acted against these suggestions or followed them, the witness answered: ‘Well, it depends.’ So much about directing events by Milosevic. Afterwards, both sides tried to coordinate the signing of the Erdut Agreement and the Dayton Accords and Milanovic acted against the explicit wish of Milosevic’s aides and signed Erdut Agreement before they fully coordinated everything; but when the two men met later on, Milosevic conceded that Milanovic did well by signing, after all. Again, so much about Milosevic the Director of everything. (BTW, in cross-examination Milosevic quoted from the Erdut Agreement, pointing out that some major stipulations hasn’t been complied with from the Croatian side.)
The career of Milanovic ended in 1996 by his resignation; as he explained it, he challenged his colleagues to replace him, they had no guts to do so and instead they claimed they had a green light from Milosevic, so Milanovic and the other two resigned. Obviously, Milosevic’s name was used to justify all kinds of internecine fights, just like it’s been used by ICTY to justify and explain practically every move on every battlefield in all these civil wars.
Milanovic acquitted himself quite well, considering. He didn’t openly lie, he corrected almost every ludicrous exaggeration deriving from questions, all he did was pretending to testify for the Prosecution, by throwing them generally known “revelations” and a couple of his personal opinions and assumptions. Hope this will buy him a ticket out of the indictment zone.
Milosevic put to the witness that he had been forced to testify on account of being threatened to be indicted himself. The IWPR hack Suljagic dismissed such a notion by explaining that it’s highly improbable, because Milanovic was not important in the Krajina hierarchy. But, he was the Assistant Minister of Transport first and then Acting Minister of Defence since December 1991. Not important in the hierarchy?!
Otherwise, this witness served Milosevic well in confirming the political and social situation as well as military build-up and subsequent fights and after-war events in Croatia before, during and immediately after SAO, and then Republika Srpska Krajina had been formed. There was even an interesting little eye-witness story from this witness about a German TV crew (ZDF), that filmed one of the first grenade attacks from the Croatian side against the village of the witness, but on air it all came out just the opposite: as if the Serbs had attacked the Croats. May jumped up, trying to prevent Milosevic from driving this point home, yelling ‘we waste time’ and ‘you don’t need to repeat that all the time’. May, the great defender of time (and of the unbiased, fair media).
Through this witness there was a mountain of documents tendered into evidence, few of which Milosevic quoted and established that they are related to events in no way illegal, contentious nor interesting for the Prosecution’s case, for that matter. They were only submitted to make the paper pile higher and the case more muddled.
Again May intervened later on, to prevent Milosevic to use in his question the expression ‘civil war’ when describing the war that broke out within Croatia; May said it would be ‘a matter for the Trial Chamber’ to decide what type of war that was; Milosevic argued there was no outside aggression and that ‘these are historical facts. You can decide whatever you will.’ And then Judge May expressed clearly the real purpose of this “trial” by saying: ‘No, it’s not a historical fact. It’s the type of war it was. It’s a matter of interpretation and may even be a matter of law, which we’ll have to decide.’ Could it be more obvious, now that ICTY has manifested its disregard for the rule of evidence, proper and fair procedure and even the mere logic of the case, its true mission to be in establishing/interpreting/rewriting history?
Vera Martinovic
Belgrade
Yugoslavia - Friday October 31, 2003 at 4:08 am
Eat that, Chris Black.;-)
( ... er, and me, and er, everyone else here ... )
"All I can do is keep pointing out why ICTY is not a proper court and why it should be abolished, so that more people could understand that. And this can be achieved only by analysing what’s going on there. We must ‘discuss the details of the daily farce as it unfolds’ - it shows the type of witnesses that ICTY produces, the utter lawlessness of its procedure, and most of all - the absurdity of its pretentious indictments and the lack of any solid case against Milosevic. And although ICTY will be closed on completion of its political task, it’s useful to link that political task to each and every one of the “tribunal’s” actions and utterances."
Now, that's what I call logic.
Of course, my mind must just be too finely tuned to have spotted it at the time. (ack: philosophers Vroomfondel and Majikthise, HHGTTG).
;-)
I vote anyone wanting to send money to help Milosevic sends it to whoever Vera stipulates.
I vote that whoever's looking after Milosevic's interests (obviously not EC) hires Vera as chief legal counsel. Don't give a rag if she's not legally qualified. She walks all over most of that profession.
I vote I can post what the hell I want here, and if the Moderators decide it's off point then it will be their decision to remove material or not, rather than sanctimonious complaints about it from other posters wasting even more space. Here's a funny off-point article: "Don't dick with the CIA"
Great stuff as usual Vera. Get yourself a web-site, and stick it all up there. Then when you can't post here, someone here with your E-Mail can alert us to new additions - and even re-post them here. Boom, boom!
MP:Hearty congratulations on the centenary of your country. I sincerely hope, for a change, that the US can manage to keep its dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of your country's affairs for at least most of the time before the bi-centenary comes due.
Dennis Revell
EmU (Not Darn Under) - Friday October 31, 2003 at 5:05 am
Dennis .- Many thanks in the name of our little nation "Bridge of the world and heart of the Universe"
M P
Rep de Panama , SALUD¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ - Friday October 31, 2003 at 8:17 am
GodfredDid you know of this report that one of your ambassadors was abducted by the new variant KLA and had to be rescued near the Kosovo border by an international police and army operation last month?
Note that Blair’s mob - Nato and its hack press corps - is still covering up for the crimes of its KLA allies:
"We were in a situation when the international community insisted on police action and it happened. I asked the representatives of international community not to publish the case in media, because it would present a great shame for us, Albanians," Ahmeti said.
Blair came to power with the slogan: “Education, education, education” but all we get from him and his Nato chums is deceit, deceit, deceit and cluster-bombs, cluster-bombs, cluster-bombs.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday October 31, 2003 at 9:36 am
“The Untouchables” by Nebojsa MalicThere is no point in arguing that the ICTY is "biased." It is an illegal, illegitimate, arbitrary and tyrannical pseudo-institution, not a court at all.
But while such a monstrosity besieges Serbia by demands to trash its judiciary - admittedly, DOS has done it already for its own purposes - and deliver more sacrifices at the altar of Imperial Justice, it treats the KLA to the ultimate "Get out of jail free" pass, with UNMIK's help.
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday October 31, 2003 at 9:41 am
"The Untouchables" by Nebojsa Malic
Peter Taylor
Herts/UK - Friday October 31, 2003 at 9:42 am
Dennis,I 2nd your call to post what the hell you want here and let the moderator decide, and speaking of logic, isn’t it funny (peculiar) how the so-often off-topic self-appointed moderators and gendarmes never seem to think that their posts use up any space, or prevent such-and-such bud of theirs from posting, etc etc? It’s only the posts of people they don’t like which, by some New Jurist Math, are preventing someone else from visiting. Instead of fraudulently staking off the board for themselves as their clubby group-think tank, maybe they should just book a net conference, or a meeting room at the Y.
And while we’re “voting,” I “vote” that the next time JP Pompous or his friend Boston Beluga treat us to their pontifications on the Middle East, that they do so in flawless Arabic (and here’s hoping JP’s Arabic is better than his English). Since JP seems to think mastery of Serbo-Croatian should be a sine qua non of knowledgeable participation in debate on SM and the trial (though it doesn’t apply to his darling dirigible, who hires translators…), I think it’s only fair that the next time he and Lardo tell the Palestinians to f-off “back to Jordan” and die and take Ramsey with them, they should be using the “Jordanians’” mother tongue, if only as a courtesy, not to mention for logical consistency.
Yup, I’m for that - let’s make mastery of semitic languages a prerequisite for “endless sidebar rants” on the Middle East, though of course it’s not a prerequisite for Israeli citizenship. Jared already met the only prerequisite for that by just being born, albeit more than 10.000 miles from Israel.
Well Jared, that’s quite a pal you’ve pressed into service to help you with your Clark- and Arab-bashing here. Defending the maligned “Tailgunner Joe,” and the judicial and constitutional integrity of his committee hearings, and bringing in no less a big gun to make the point than…Ann Coulter!! Can’t take him anywhere, can ya?
P WP
(go back to Jordan, you terrorist rabble, cuz we\'re talkin\' about The Trial here!)
Bas Canada - Friday October 31, 2003 at 12:18 pm
David,I thought that quote from Mr. May summed things up quite nicely myself.
“You will ask the questions that we order you to ask or else you won’t be able to ask any questions at all.”
- "Judge" Richard May, 30 October 2003What is the topic question for this forum again? Ah yes, "Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?" that is the question, and from Mr. May's quote the answer seems quite obvious.
----------------------------
Vera,
It is nice to see you back here again. Your analysis is very much appreciated.
What exactly is B-92 TV doing anyway? Are they broadcasting the trial live again, or are they still only airing prerecorded excerpts? And what reasons (if any) have they given for interruting the broadcasts?
Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States - Friday October 31, 2003 at 7:30 pm
I would like to take this opportunity to thank to Jurist for maintaining this discussion for so long. Regardless of the some problems related to the length of the page, this is the only site that I know of that people can discuss this issue. So Jurist thank you.
Dakic Ana
Serbia - Friday October 31, 2003 at 8:06 pm
Joining the above vote of thanks to JURIST, it is reported that:On 20 October 2003 people gathered in front of the State Television (RTS) building in Belgrade at a "public press conference" jointly called by SLOBODA and SPS as a way of communicating to the people facts and messages that regime-controlled media in Serbia avoid to publish.
The meeting was addressed by Dr Zarko Obradovic, vice-president of SPS, Dejan Stjepanovic and Snezana Paunovic, students, Uros Suvakovic, editor-in-chief of the SPS theoretical journal SMISAO and Vladimir Krsljanin, foreign relations assistant to President Milosevic:
The Hague Tribunal is a political court trying the Serbian people, Serbian state and Serbian history on account of their struggle for freedom and equality, and against aggression and enslavement. The Hague Tribunal arranges for the killing of the Serbian patriotism and the killing of President Slobodan Milosevic as a witness to the truth and the leader of the struggle against tyranny and for the removal of the imposed guilt from the Serbian state, Serbian people, Serbian history, Serbian Orthodox Church, Serbian Academy of Sciences, Serbian military and police, Serbian youth and Serbian future.
The Hague Tribunal and its Belgrade branch with the name of DOS are committing a national, political and media crime. Much like those who had ordered the bombing, they also rely on terrorists, criminals, vassals and traitors. Doing the same job, they also lie in the same way. Yesterday they broke up and abolished Yugoslavia, today they are abolishing Serbian Kosovo & Metohija and Republika Srpska, and tomorrow they would do the same to Serbia itself and the Serbian people.
Their terror must end!
The political situation within the country and the position of the Government and the Assembly is an answer of the citizens to their false democracy and their attitude towards The Hague Tribunal. Bearing their own names proudly live in Europe the Germans, the French, the English, the Hungarians, the Bulgarians. Likewise, and with even greater pride, the Serbs shall live as well!
The struggle and the victory of Dimitrov exactly 70 years ago had mobilized people to resist the most terrible tyranny of fascism. The struggle and the victory of Milosevic today will be the victory of us all who are determined not to let such a tyranny recur, the victory against new colonialism and militarism of the "New World Order".
But the machinery of the Tribunal has endangered the life of President Milosevic. Therefore:
1. We demand that President Milosevic is released forthwith, in order to preserve his life and his right to uphold the truth about the Serbian people.
2. We demand that the persecution of the family of President Milosevic ends forthwith, as well as his complete isolation from his family, collaborators, physicians, foreign friends and journalists, and the fabrication of invented accusations against him and against all the champions of freedom and justice.
3. We demand that all decisions which endanger the life of President Milosevic and his human and constitutional rights are reversed, including the latest one requesting a man with a seriously undermined health to prepare his exposition, hundreds of witnesses and thousands of documents in only six weeks. For something that took the Tribunal ten years, hundreds of officials and hundreds of millions of dollars to do, President Milosevic should be allotted at least two years.
4. We demand that those who endanger his life and his rights are put on trial, as well as those who had sent him to The Hague gaol, and those who had lied unsuccessfully at The Hague by testifying under the orders of the enemies of the Serbian people. The Hague Tribunal paves the way for tyranny similar to the one of sixty years ago. The whole progressive world supports us in the struggle against that global crime.
5. We demand that the State serves its people and stands up for Slobodan Milosevic, for our honour and the truth about Serbia.
6. We demand that all honourable men, political parties, social organizations and national institutions achieve what we are manifesting here - unity in the struggle for freedom.
7. We demand that Radio-Television of Serbia broadcasts live the battle at The Hague, and all the media open up for the truth and the voice of the people, thus helping directly the restoration of freedom and democracy in Serbia. If we fail in that - we are no longer a nation, we lose our national and moral identity before the world and future generations.
SLOBODA/FREEDOM ASSOCIATION and SOCIALIST PARTY OF SERBIA
and AROUND 1000 CITIZENS GATHERED IN FRONT OF THE RTS BUILDING IN BELGRADE, SERBIA
ON 20 OCTOBER, 2003.
(relayed as edited by)
Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K