MILOSEVIC TRIAL DISCUSSION ARCHIVE

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
————————————————————————————
NOTICE: Comments posted to this discussion board are solely the responsibility of individual posters, and not of JURIST, its owner, operators, host or staff. JURIST reserves the right to block or remove posts that are in violation of law or that advocate illegal acts, that are obscene, disruptive, defamatory, threatening, harassing or abusive, that are in breach of intellectual property rights, rights of publicity or rights of privacy, that are advertisements or solicitations, or that are not related to the topic being discussed.
————————————————————————————

• discussion archive

• Monday September 16, 2002 at 12:50 am
  RE: Bob Dole in Kosovo - the pre-Viagra phase.

  The scope of the Albanian lobby's influence on U.S. politicians remained largely unreported throughout the Kosovo upheaval. For instance, Michael Ignatieff's mentioning of Albanian cabbies and restaurateurs buttonholing Holbrooke in New York to berate him for talking to Milosevic may have added human interest to his report in The New Yorker (December 1998 - I believe), but there was more to the interaction between the Albanian Diaspora and U.S. politicians than met his eye.

  The powerful Albanian criminal organizations in Western Europe and the U.S., so familiar to the FBI, have not only been providing the primary cash supply for the KLA via Albania proper, but were also instrumental in influencing U.S. politicians by means of campaign contributions through the Albanian lobby. The role of the latter in the U.S. is well known to those blessed with inquisitive minds, as is the influence of individual congressmen, who on the eve of the Kosovo showdown invested their authority in this conflict, stirring up unrest and imposing demands on the position of national minorities beyond the standards of international law.

  Among the beneficiaries were such big guns as Bob Dole, who refused to meet with the representatives of the Serbian minority while touring Kosovo in the early ‘90s, Tom Lantos, a vocal critic of Yugoslavia (and a leading "Holocaust" authority), and Joseph Dioguardi, an American of Albanian descent and a U.S. representative for the idea of a Great Albania.

  Strategically criticizing communist countries on human rights issues, Dioguardi attacked Yugoslavia for the first time in June 1986. His proposal to bring a resolution condemning Yugoslavia for violation of human rights of Albanians was then rejected by Congress. A year later, though, when he had won 55 congressmen over to his idea, Dioguardi succeeded in passing a condemnation of Yugoslavia. A similar move was then executed by two senators, Bob Dole and Paul Simon.

  In order to get official support from Albania for these proposals the American-Albanian League of Citizens for the Protection of Human Rights was formed, with Joe Dioguardi as its first president. Backed by a generous $1.2 million contribution by the Albanian lobby, Dioguardi succeeded in the late ‘80s pushing through a vote for a panel discussion in Congress on human rights of Albanians in the Balkans, and first of all in Yugoslavia. This heralded the start of an internationalization of the Albanian problem in Kosovo, and the creation of a new round of American pressure on the Yugoslav leadership. The local conflict thus turned global. The rest is, as we know, history.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Monday September 16, 2002 at 2:24 am
  If the proceedings can be "regarded as null and void" after fraud has been proven (according to Bin Cheng), how do you "prove" the fraud. The short answer is: by watching the trial (which I have no time to do, so I stick to this discussion). But even if you have time to watch the trial, what is the neat quasi-mathematical proof that fraud exists?

  Remember, proof is a different from evidence. Evidence is the means to establish a proof, proof is the result of the evidence. On the other hand, proof is something less than a verdict.

  I think the proof would go like this. I am not absolutely certain that Rade Markovic was called as a prosecution witness the second time. Suppose he was. So why was he called as a witness a second time? Could it be that his testimony was so "relevant" that it had to be heard twice? But why twice? Wasn't it enough to hear it once? Well, we know what the problem was with the first time. There were some points that jeopardized the usefulness of the testimony for the prosecution. These were the points that the judge ruled "irrelevant", but in retrospect, even the judge seems to admit that they were highly relevant. So he ruled falsely. This ruling confirms that he deems "irrelevant" anything that doesn't substantiate the prosecution's case. We have seen this policy from the beginning. Yet, irrelevant means something that can neither prove nor disprove a question. Judge May thinks that it is enough that a part of the testimony doesn't prove the prosecution's case for him to rule it "irrelevant", even if that part would disprove the prosecution's case, and thus be relevant.

  And how do we know this is fraud? Because the judges and the prosecution accept the fact that what Markovic said was true. If they didn't, they would have to punish him for false testimony.

  And the point of Rade Markovic's testimony was that the testimony was manipulated. This means subornation of perjury. Why nothing happens? Why doesn't the Dutch police storm the ICTY building? Could it be that the Dutch police, or government in general, has a conflict of interests here? This is the clearest indication that the prosecution's policy is severely biased. Well, we knew that but here is the proof. When the NIOD report on Srebrenica came out, Wim Kok's government resigned as a token of collective guilt. Now we hear that the NIOD report didn't go deep enough into the Dutch guilt question, so a parliamentary inquiry is held. That is good. That will save Mrs Del Ponte a whole lot of work, and the Dutch a few convictions. Remember that the guilt of the Dutch in the alleged massacre was much more direct than Milosevic's. Milosevic allegedly only knew, and that is now supposedly enough to convict him. Why doesn't Del Ponte do something? Isn't there enough evidence against the Dutch? The government resigned because of it. But no. It doesn't matter what you do, it matters if you are a Serb or not.

  These two points, Markovic's testimony and the NIOD report, constitute in my mind the proof that the tribunal deals with fraud. It goes beyond mere evidence. It is now established in the actions of the prosecution and the judges as well as the Dutch government. This means that the proceedings are (not "must be" or "can be" but "are) regarded as null and void. Of course, it would be nice if there were a judicial ruling somewhere, no matter where, to the same effect, but from the Dutch courts or the European Court of Human Rights such a ruling is unlikely to emanate.

  What is wrong with the world? Don't the lawyers feel ashamed any more that the connexion between them and justice is non-existent? They emphatically do not. Do the lawyers defend justice, for instance, of if not that, at least the goals of the UN Charter? Oh no. That is medieval thinking. No, one of the main tasks of international lawyers is "defending our proper idiom". In other words, when the problems get too real, you had better do that mumbo jumbo. Even if Kofi Annan isn't a lawyer, he has learned the lesson well. He actually said (in response to Bush's recent speech at the UN) that there a mechanisms (in the UN) for resolving differences. Well, that is good, because it has at least as many mechanisms for creating them, and ICTY is one of them.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday September 16, 2002 at 3:47 am
  Mr T left off the translation of the latter article where it should have gone on: "Judge Richarg May emphasized yesterday that the Milosevic trial is conducted before a professional court and the articles in the press have no influence on that". What do you make of it? Is the amicus curiae in question not professional, so the amici curiae shouldn't be heard? But that is like saying that whatever Mr Milosevic says has no influence on what this professional court does.

  I think Gil-White's article is superb. Too much of the prosecution's argument relies, to the extent it is "relevant" at all, on the benefit of hindsight. You have to bear in mind that all these people acted in an environment of uncertainty. If you deny that you jump to the conclusion that they was some conspiracy. There are some psychological laws that people observe no matter what.

  I wouldn't be too pessimistic about Milosevic's individual criminal responsibility. It is enough that the Yugoslav establishment (which some read: Milosevic) punished the perpetrators. The prosecution has to show that the perpetrators of given atrocities were not punished, in which case it has to be shown that the perpetrators were known and not punished. In Art. 7(3) we have the magic word "or": "...prevent such acts or to punish the perpetrators thereof". So, strictly speaking, the accused might have neglected to take the necessary precautions to prevent "such acts" as long as he punished the perpetrators afterwards! This is one of those loopeholes that Statute gives to the defendant, and you have to use them.

  So now we are discussing which witness was important and which not, we are just discussing which witness was relevant and which not. If Judge May had done his job, he should have ruled the bulk of the witnesses "irrelevant", which he will do when we get to the defense witness, rest assured. So to decipher May's policy, not only everything that supports the prosecution's case but also everything that doesn't undermine it is "relevant". And abracadabra, it doesn't matter what the few really "relevant" witnesses (also called misleadingly "star witnesses") say, because the everything is already "diseased throughout".
  
  J N
  Finland

• Monday September 16, 2002 at 10:10 am
  Jari: "Mr T left off the translation of the latter article where it should have gone on: "Judge Richarg May emphasized yesterday that the Milosevic trial is conducted before a professional court and the articles in the press have no influence on that". What do you make of it?"

  Jonathan Randal, for one, will like the idea. May's statement is thus tantamount to withdrawing the subpoena. Others, like Gutman and Amanpour, may rejoice as well down the road.

  How the May/Del Ponte cartel will call "journalists" as prosecution witnesses next time around with a straight face is a mystery to me.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Monday September 16, 2002 at 11:28 am
  It is possible that this address is being blocked.

  http://news.serbianunity.net/forums/read.php?
  f=3&i=27739&t=27739&Forum_Session=
  f5d5b711b6ee44af58dc672449475908
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Monday September 16, 2002 at 12:02 pm
  

  WASHINGTON -- Monday -- Following the UN General Assembly, Yugoslav Foreign Minister arrived in Washington to discuss US and Yugoslav relations. The House of representatives and the Senate have drafted a law suspending aid approved to Serbia amounting to 115 million US dollars in the new fiscal year. It is also withdrawing its backing for Yugoslavia to join the IMF, World Bank and other international financial institutions. Svilanovic will try to prevent the passage of this law in talks with US administration and Congress representatives. The main condition for normalisation between the two countries is for the Belgrade authorities to establish immediate and full cooperation with the Hague Tribunal. Svilanovic has already discussed the issue of Belgrade's cooperation with The Hague with the US ambassador for war crimes Richard Prosper in New York. Prior to his talks in Washington, Svilanovic said that relations between Belgrade and The Hague "are an extremely important and challenging topic" and something that the new Serbian authorities immediately "addressed after the toppling of the Milosevic regime". "Some of the indictees had been transferred to the Hague, and we also adopted the new law on cooperation with the Tribunal." Said Svilanovic. "Much has been done, concerning the suspects, evidence, access to the archives, witnesses." "However, what is still a main obstacle between Yugoslavia and the US are the other war crime suspects accused of atrocities in Srebrenica and Vukovar. We are limited with what we can do with these suspects", said Svilanovic.

  Link

  That is directly related to prosecutor Mr. Nice (NATO) warning to the Troiska Trial.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 2:47 am
  Milosevic was not enough. Serb television is running an ad asking that the Serbs turn over all “war criminals.” Reminding them of the $5 million reward.

  Now the U.S. Senate and House are showing the Serbs that there will be nothing they can do to obtain any funding from the U.S. or the IMF. They must turn over all of the “war criminals.” After that....what?

  It would be nice if we had a law that all the members of the Senate and House had to list all monies received from foreign governments.

  There is no doubt that the Albanian lobby is persuading the Senate and House that Serbs should receive nothing.

  Betrayal never wins. At least loyalty is admired. Nothing has changed with Milosevic in the Kangaroo Court.

  By the way, it was interesting to me to note that Lantos, a representative from California, was calling for the bombing of Iraq in the Gulf War, and is one of the first calling for the bombing again, and was one of the most vocal in calling for the bombing of the Serbs.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 2:52 am
  I thought Kostunica had just come back from his American tour and said that everything was swell. Why this sudden change? Why now?

  First, there is a discipline called Law and Economics, which says that the law functions according to economic laws. But you don't even need Law and Economics to see the point. It is easy to see that it makes sense to save 115 million dollars if you can, especially when you have taken it on yourself to finance the ICTY. And the Americans need the money now on the eve of the invasion of Iraq. It is just a pity that so many of the friends of Americans feel betrayed, but I guess we have got used to it.

  How about a legal analysis? Is what the US is doing blackmail? Not really. They don't threaten to do something bad if the Serbs don't do something the Americans want. First of all, the Americans do not want the Serb indictees. They just want to keep the money. Second, it is their money and you can't strictly speaking threaten anybody with something everybody wants. Maybe I am wrong. To me it seems just a breach of an agreement with poor excuse for an excuse! First, I believe that the Serbs cannot do anything more than they have done. There is a nice-sounding legal term for it too. The Americans could just as well be protecting Karadzic and Mladic. Second, if the Americans were that interested in cooperation with the tribunal, they would have handed Clinton and Albright to the tribunal. Of course, if you define the tribunal as the organ that exists to condemn the Serbs, then the Americans are quite right in withholding every possible cent from the Serbs. But in reality, the effect is just to reinforce the humiliation and the material damage done to Serbia during the bombing, lest the lesson be forgotten (whatever it was).

  Why now? I am not sure whether Yugoslavia has signed the bilateral immunity agreement that the US offered. If not, that would be a good reason to remind the Serbs who is who. The immunity agreement would have been invalid to begin with, but if the Serbs now sign it under duress, the agreement can be invalidated all over, which the Serbs won't do though, because the Americans would then withhold some more money.

  Could it be that the Serbs have a fixation with the Americans? Couldn't it be possible that the EU would be a more rewarding partner than the Americans? I think the EU membership would ultimately be a bigger deal for the Serbs than the American handouts that never materialize. Besides, if the Serbs sign the ICC immunity agreement (supposing that this is the reason for this conflict), the EU won't enter or continue the membership negotiations with the applicant countries. Sure, the Americans threaten to stop negotiations on Nato membership with those East European countries that refuse to sign the agreement, but Nato is on the way out anyway - that is my conviction.

  Since the Americans have proved to be this capricious, there would seem to be no reason not to resume the Legality of Use of Force proceedings at the International Court of Justice. You know, they have now been suspended because of "political reasons". I guess there now seem to be "political reasons" to resume the proceedings. The case against the US has been declared inadmissible, but the case against the other Nato countries that took part in the bombing campaign has not. That would provide some welcome variation in this litigious orgy. That would send a clear signal of how much Nato membership really counts.

  But you don't need that kind of circus tricks to make the Milosevic trial collapse. As I hope I have pointed out, the case against this trial is conclusive. Hence, the proceedings are regarded as null and void. It would be nice if someone would make a declaration to that effect, but since no-one does, I must make it myself. So, I thus declare the Milosevic trial null and void. On which authority do I do that? On the same authority that the ICTY continues the proceedings and the Americans demand cooperation with this organ: on the authority of simply having the nerve to do it. Besides, law is on my side. Maybe the Congress has arrived at this conclusion itself, so it wants to underline the fact that the organ was never about law or justice but about audacity. The effect of the declaration, on the other hand, is to make clear, that Milosevic is not only the moral winner of the trial but also the legal winner. (But of course, the Hell's Angels rule the world, and that is something we have to live with, so why not the ICTY?)

  No, you can't say no to the Americans. Maybe you can talk sense to the Dutch. They have a lot in common with the Serbs. But before going to the Dutch, let us ask ourselves why Srebrenica matters so much, even if everyone would miraculously agree that there were more Serb casualties than there Bosnian Muslim casualties? The reason is that Srebrenica was a UN-protected safe-haven. That brought the Muslims some rights. However, what is often forgotten is that it brought the Muslims some duties, including the duty not to use the safe havens as bases for launching attacks on the Serbs. Somehow the Muslims always forget this, even if it was admitted in the Krstic judgment. However, the Trial Chamber in the Kristic case was remarkably apathetic about this little detail, even if it would qualify as "perfidy" under the Geneva Conventions, which the ICTY protects according to the ICTY Statute. If those attacks were the reason the Serbs overpowered the city, the Serbs might appeal to self-defense. At any rate, the attacks give the Muslims no right to blame the Serbs and the Dutch! Isn't it quite a coincidence that the alleged 7,000-8,000 dead people in Srebrenica are Bosnian Muslim men and boys?

  But if you blame the Serbs, you can blame the Dutch too. Milosevic was not a "superior" in the alleged Srebrenica massacre in the sense of Art. 7(3) of the ICTY Statute, so if you want to make an exception for Milosevic, why not for the Dutch? If you want to argue by "aid and abet" in Art. 7(1) of the ICTY Statute, the Dutch have a lot more to answer for than Milosevic, whose only responsibility was to facilitate (!) the contacts between the international personnel and the Bosnian Serb leadership - and of course to sign the Dayton Agreement. But somehow it just doesn't make sense to indict the Dutch. They couldn't have aided or abetted any massacre committed by the Serbs, because they are not - you know - Serbs! And Milosevic is a Serb, so he must be guilty by association. Needless to say, this reasoning flies in the face of the UN Charter, but who cares?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 4:20 am
  Just a few lines, because I am in a shock. Well, you all probably know Milosevic favours Vojislav Seselj as the next president of Serbia, and the elections will be held on Sept. 29. From what I hear, Seselj gains big support in Serbia and could replace Kostunica and be elected. His website www.srs.org.yu is in Cyrilic, but still one can read e.g. the supporting letter from Yugo tennis star Jelena Dokic, where she writes „you, Mr. Seselj, are the last hope of Serbia.“ etc. And, Seselj was never ever before in any way connected - even by the West - with any war crime charges, I do not even think he ever held any position in government. Today I by chance read CNN teletext, and there it is: „U.N. prosecutors say they are investigating hardline Serbian right-winger Vojislav Seselj on suspicion of war crimes, as speculation mounts he is close to being indicted.“ Well, they must work fast, the elections are in less than two weeks away. Can you BELIEVE THIS??? This comedy is too much for me to comment on. Anyone else?
  
  Robert Hayer
  France

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 9:24 am
  In two weeks Serbia will be electing a new government. They can do this on their feet or on their knees. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to conclude that America wants them to vote on their knees. America wants Serbs to vote with their stomach rather then with their brain.

  Jari, you are right it is their money and they are using it as a carrot and a stick. One can be spanked much easier on ones knees than on ones feet. The IMF, loans, the World Bank loans and the reconstruction loans to fix what America has destroyed are nothing more than a threat for the Serbs to vote for the American choice PLEAS DON’T CALL THESE LOANS AID. It is just another form of servitude.

  The attack on Seselj is in line with the loans. Eliminate Seselj at all costs. Blackmail, threats and lies, we have seen this all before. American advisors are working on Labus’s and Djindjic’s campaigns. Need I say more?
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 10:20 am
  Mr Trkla

  " Need I say more? "

  Er yes! Your strangly quiet on Seselj's alledged past, have you swept it under the carpet or dismissed it as "lies" because he's a Serb?
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 10:58 am
  That was a cheap shot. And oh what relish! If you didn't get it: it is not a coincidence that the ICTY comes up with these "investigations" just when the opinion polls are turning in favour of Seselj and the presidential election is coming soon.

  On the other hand, the ICTY is j"strangely silent" on the Western leaders' past because they are - er - Western. Besides, the point is: why was Del Ponte "strangely silent" on Seselj? She seems to be admitting her past neglect in discharging her duties. Or was the news a surprise to her too?

  Robert, I think Seselj was in the Yugoslav/Serb government. Normally, you don't charge government members with war crimes at your pleasure, but it is done here because they are Serbs.

  And we could also make the point that everybody is strangely silent on the prosecution because it is - er - prosecution. There is no doubt that there the prosecution is criminal. The question is: which body does investigate the crimes committed by an international tribunal. Interpol?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 12:36 pm
  Well, at least corrupt law enforcement is one of the priorities of Interpol. See http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/GeneralAssembly/AGN68
  /Resolutions/AGN68RES4.asp . And we know from amicus curiae Wladimiroff that the ICTY is all about money!
  
  J N
  Finland

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 12:38 pm
  Look, everybody - forget about loans. Forget about aid. It's a fairy-tale, as we can all see. But if you put it as a question of honour, the whole world is on it's knees, both rich and poor countries. They are all playing a part in America's dirty games. They all silently allow the crimes to go on and on. They could have put a stop on the hell that was imposed on us and others. The fact that Germany is so 'boldly' against bombing Iraq, while at the same time they've supported the destruction of Yugoslavia shows to me that EU will do nothing to save us, in fact it was German interest to chop us into pieces as it was American. And don't tell me Serbs are better off being the only ones standing, wearing a target sign. Where is the brain in that? Djindjic is not a candidate, and Labus is not in his team. From what I've heard from people who know him, Labus is very good person. G17 is not conforting to the DS requests, for example for two years Djindjic is insisting to devalve dinar, yet Dinkic is resisting. I know this is a weak excuse, in my heart I feel the urge to slap America in the face by electing the one they like least. But that, again, could be only to their benefit, if we choose Seselj. They could easily arrange separation of Vojvodina and Kosovo, as we would be deemed 'bad guys' again, and Seselj is ideal to be pictured as next Sadam. Look at the post of Simon Joseph, for example. I bet he has no clue on Seselj's past whatsoever yet he's ready to assume that he's a monster, just because West pointed a finger. What would we do when EU and America recognize Vojvodina and Kosovo as independent states? Attack them with our military? We all know what would be the response from 'civilized' world. It's all divide and conquer principle.

  Yes, Djindjic and Co. are most likely selling us to the West. I didn't see the advertisement about 5 million reward, if it's true it's terrible. But what's the point of such advertisement, DOS is the one that has the means to arrest Mladic if he's in Serbia. I would think that it's a feint to discredit the claims of Albanian lobby US politicians that Serbs do not cooperate with Hague and should be punished. It's like "look, we're risking our popularity in the midst of elections by actively seeking of Serbs to embarass themselves for money" while at the same time knowing that nobody who knows where Mladic is won't be bought with that money.

  Look, I'm totally, completely disgusted with American politicians. All of them. The only way to save ourselves would be for us all to turn into drug-dealers, slave-traffickers and use the money to buy American politicians. I am not like them, I can't be bought for money. But I can't watch my people suffering either, knowing it is in vain. Show me a plan that will work instead. Remember the parallel that I drew between molested six years old child and Serbia? Forget about the conciense of the parents. It doesn't exist, you're all that's left of it, and you're effectively isolated from influencing the system. Both American political parties are the same crap, you get to choose between evil and evil. The only way for child to resist is to survive long enough to grow up. It can't obviously do that by intentionally provoking the anger of it's parents. But don't worry, it will never, ever forget. And when it grows big enough it might settle the scores.
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 12:59 pm
  

  President G. W. Bush recently quietly signed the continuation of the so called "Outer Wall" sanctions on Yugoslavia. These sanctions removal are essential for the economical survival of any nation in our present time and that Bush, whom has hardly said a word about Yugoslavia, would keep the sanctions in place tells you about who pulls the strings in Washington.

  Unity in facing the enemy is what is in great need in Serbia and Montenegro at the present moment. This is not the time for deep intellectual or ideological debates: it is the time for National Salvation, it is the time for allpatriots yes the word has a meaning, to rally and together take action to stop the nation from falling any further into the enemies hands.

  Aux armes citoyens. . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 1:04 pm
  Mr Nousiainen

  Er did you forget Seselj is a member of the so called "joint criminal enterprise" and mentioned in indictments against Milosevic for Bosnia & Herzegovina and Croatia, so why should anyone be surprised that he be under investigation?

  Mr Oparnica

  I have read much of the "alledged" involvement of Seselj in war crimes. Is he a monster? I dont know there's been no trial, no verdict...,but the allegations are there and as such worthy of investigation.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 1:18 pm
  Mr Charlemagne

  "Aux armes citoyens"

  Have the Serbs not tried this and failed, is there not another way like in Japan, post WW11?
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 1:26 pm
  Labus, a "very good person" is on record as having said, following Milosevic's kidnapping in June 2001 - "We DELIVERED. Now, where is the cash money?"
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 1:34 pm
  If Seselj's complicity in "war crimes" in Bosnia and Croatia has been so obvious, why was he not indicted right after the war - in 1995. That is 7 (SEVEN) ago. The same timing game tailored to the political designs in the Balkans is at work here, just as in case of the Milosevic indictment.

  Meanwhile, ex-KLA bandits are roaming, dealing, and wheeling free. Just when one thinks that the Hague circus can't get more disgusting than it already is - KABOOM!!
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 2:06 pm
  

  Athila the Hun should be investigated by Mr. Nice (NATO) and Carla del Ponte should investigate Ivan the Terrible, it is about time!

  The NATO folks aren't happy with Yugoslavia because despite the bombing and the trial NATO has not set foot in Yugoslavia, the "privatization" is going too slowly and the people, ah, the people are resisting and you don't have to be in the Balkans to experience this type of treatment: Argentina right now and more developing, and don't forget the Fertile Crescent!

  Japan? Do you really want to rise from the ashes? Better fight now, resist while you can! Remember the Imperialist Powers are Paper Tiggers!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 2:54 pm
  

  The plot thickens, click HERE
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 5:15 pm
  For Bogdan Oparnica, Bogdane, there are millions of such children in this World, who will never forget. This is an interesting and long term discussion. I`m very surprised how many interesting people spend their time reading and contributing here. There is hardly something what hasn`t been told. I`ve nothing to add, even I had been involved in studying causes of breakdown of Yugoslavia since 1994. It is surprising how many people we are, who can`t forget what the West caused in former Yugoslavia. Slobodan should be suited. He should be suited in Belgrade for gangsterisation of internal politics in FRY, for which is he coresponsible. International war crime court should suite others - Kinkel, Genscher, Solana, Albright, Clinton, Blair, Wesley Clark, Thaci and all the band. I can`t forget, I can`t forgive.
  
  Tom Zipfel
  Brno
  Czech Republic (temporarily Orlando, Florida, USA)

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 5:17 pm
  For Bogdan Oparnica, Bogdane, there are millions of such children in this World, who will never forget. This is an interesting and long term discussion. I`m very surprised how many interesting people spend their time reading and contributing here. There is hardly something what hasn`t been told. I`ve nothing to add, even I had been involved in studying causes of breakdown of Yugoslavia since 1994. It is surprising how many people we are, who can`t forget what the West caused in former Yugoslavia. Slobodan should be suited. He should be suited in Belgrade for gangsterisation of internal politics in FRY, for which is he coresponsible. International war crime court should suite others - Kinkel, Genscher, Solana, Albright, Clinton, Blair, Wesley Clark, Thaci and all the band. I can`t forget, I can`t forgive.
  
  Tom Zipfel
  Brno
  Czech Republic (temporarily Orlando, Florida, USA)

• Tuesday September 17, 2002 at 9:39 pm
  The defeat of Milosevic in the election cost the US 70m. and had the runoff vote been allowed he would still be president. Bogdan, you should be glad that you have a fine army that didn't fall into an Latin American junta that the US. expected. At least you still have a vote. Ask Hugo Chavais how close he came. The CIA is alive and well in your country as well. Regime change is only another term for control of the world. The world does not need any more US puppets.
  
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  BC Canada

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 1:53 am
  Simon just because my ethnicity is Serbian you seem to feel that I am “strangely quiet on Seselj's alleged past” and you ask if I have “swept it under the carpet or dismissed it as "lies" because he's a Serb”. Your innuendo is clear and it paints every Serb with the same brush, the old saying “birds of a feather flock together”.

  If you read my post it states that “The attack on Seselj is in line with the loans. Eliminate Seselj at all costs. Blackmail, threats and lies, we have seen this all before” I apologies if I was not clear. In no way does this state my support for Seselj as a person or politician. The point I am making deals with political blackmail clear and simple. The country is in an economic straitjacket which America, for the most part caused with the bombing and by its IMF and World Bank policies. America does not want to see Seselj elected so they have cancelled the IMF, and World Bank mortgages. They have stopped the mortgages that were to be used to pay for the repairing the damage caused by NATO. They are spending CIA money to finance Labus and Djindjic. They are orchestrating an international media campaign and preparing an indictment to have Seselj sent to The Hague. They are planting the seeds of fear and it is working. Simon, Is this coincidental that this should all take place at the time of the elections in Yugoslavia, particularly at the time when Seselj seems to be the popular choice.

  My view of Seselj has nothing to do with my ethnicity. I hate all nationalists and I think Seselj is a nationalist and on balance I would oppose any of his chauvinistic policies. I support his desire to break the yoke from around the neck of his people. I oppose international blackmail and brinkmanship. I have always supported the unity of the Southern Slavs and I will continue to champion reconciliation.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 2:57 am
  Bogdan mentions Germany going against the bombing of Iraq. For now they are, but I will bet that when the time comes for the bombing, Germany will be right in there approving every minute of it as all of the brave Europeans.All the pundits are in agreement on this. The Europeans have as much backbone as jellyfish.As long as there is not a draft in the United States, Iraq better get ready. As for the Albanian lobby. We all know that the smell of money is what moves our Senate and House to act. Not too long ago Congressman Tom Lantos of California and a New York Congressman attended an Albanian award ceremony and independence for Kosovo was the theme song.This is going to come up before Congress soon.

  We must placate the Muslims since siding with Israel and bombing Afghans, and now going after Hussein. A constant reminder is what we did for the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. This is also a reminder to the Albanians in Kosovo and the Muslims in Bosnia. The terrible tragedy of 9/11 had more victims then the 3,000 innocent men and women, the Serbs also have become the victims of that tragedy.

  I do think Jari has a point when he writes that maybe it is because we in the U.S. need more money for our wars. This way we can save a couple million.

  I have been in quite a few of the European countries, including Serbia, Montenegro and Greece. I can tell you that I was most pleased by my reception in Serbia, Montenegro and Greece. What lovable people I met in those three places. They were more gracious then the rest of the European countries. Every where you look you see great looking people. I did see what ten years of sanctions and wars had done. It was sad but the Yugoslavs are special people and they will find a way. My wish would be for all the ordinary people of the United States to go to Yugoslavia and see what the world has demonised.

  
  
  kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 3:03 am
  "Why now?" (meaning the blocking of US "aid"). Haven't we heard that before? Last time it was asked the question was put by Milosevic's attorneys when the Bosnia indictment came out. And I think that is the answer. The Bosnia indictment of Milosevic isn't going to stand as long as Karadzic and Mladic are free. If Seselj was mentioned in other Bosnia indictment, that would explain a whole lot too. There is no question that the Seselj trial would be such as much of a circus as this one, but put together, these two trials would make some sense.

  As I have said before, Bush's current policies would be pretty heavy-handed for any European ultra-right politician, and I am - er -surprised that Seselj is now painted as the bogeyman. I have also said that I support the American policy on Iraq but that a lot would depend on the Republicans' next move. This is the next move. More indictments. More money blocking. We can't blame the Democrats any more, because now "we" have a Republican administration. And as I have also said, everything has to be OK'd by Bush, so now we see how Bush's Balkans policy is taking shape.

  Are we quite powerless? The world may seem corrupt, but that can't mean that there are not at least some uncorrupt people. There would need some reassuring that they are not alone. Sorry for using the Reformation as an example, but the Reformation shows that a seemingly invincible corrupt structure can be brought down by a handful of zealous people.

  I think the key is the Dutch cooperation. I know that country very well, and I think this might work. Remember that the ICTY is under Dutch jurisdiction in its dealings. So if the trial is going the way it is, it is up to the Dutch police to storm the ICTY building. But why should they do that if they know the Dutch prosecutor is not going to prosecute anybody? And why should the Dutch prosecutor prosecute anybody, if the Ministry of Justice says it cannot be done? So the Ministry of Justice has to issue a circulaire first before the prosecutor can be certain that he or she won't make of fool of him/herself by letting the police storm the building.

  And now that the Dutch Ministry of Justice must be in the teeth of the American imperialistic yahoos already, it might be a good thing to contact the Ministry of Justice (if you are going to contact anybody). The homepage of the Ministry of Justice can be viewed in English at http://www.ministerievanjustitie.nl:8080/ . Contact information can be found at http://www.justitie.nl/contact/index.asp . Sorry, but you cannot contact Interpol directly, because you will probably only get a friendly letter back saying that Interpol only acts on request from the national police.

  I knew an American once, who lived in Holland. He saw on the Dutch TV a series on Martin Luther King, which he didn't like. So he wrote to the TV station to protest against the series and "believe it or not, they stopped the program (for a while)". Also remember that the tapes that contained secret KLA/NLA communications in Macedonia were leaked to none other than a Dutch radio station, and a Dutch official confirmed that they were authentic. Also remember that the Dutch are very particular about their international image, which is why Kok's government resigned over a report that the French said contained nothing new.

  So what would happen if the Dutch would react? Doesn't the UN staff enjoy immunity? The immunity can be revoked. Besides, the prosecutors we are after are - er - prosecutors, and even a suspicion of a crime is enough to disqualify them.

  The specific crime I have in mind is subornation of perjury, which must be criminalized in Dutch criminal law. And from there, we can construct a conspiracy between the judge and the prosecution. And once these have been established, we can proceed to the nullity of the proceedings (and the organ).

  If subornation of perjury is not enough, let us not forget about the torture allegations. The judge has the duty to look into the allegations. And since Interpol is so keen on combating corruption of law enforcement, the ammo will be there if requested. The corruption of law enforcement officers, which Interpol mentions, probably means primarily the Eastern European countries, not the "civilized countries", but remember that Markovic was allegedly tortured in Yugoslavia, so that would fit into Interpol's plans perfectly! But the request has to come from the national police, in this case, the Dutch.

  It is true that the Dutch haven't been too eager to act in the Milosevic case. Remember how the district court in The Hague threw Milosevic's plea for release as inadmissible, citing ECHR Naletilic case. Only, it doesn't work that way! You can't cite another court's preliminary ruling on inadmissibility to throw a case out! I think the ECHR realized this when Milosevic complained of the district court's decision to the ECHR. The ECHR said that Milosevic hadn't exhausted the national remedies, in other words, he hadn't taken the case to the Dutch appellate court. I don't know what happened then. This is a pretty old case, but it is possible that Milosevic got the message: he is a goner. But then again, the courts are controlled by the Ministry of Justice! Besides, if the proceedings are ultimately null and void, then the ICTY has no right to keep Milosevic in detention any more.

  This may seem pretty outlandish, but let me tell you: you don't have much choice. And if you want to act, do it as soon as possible, because you know how much time these things take.

  Meanwhile, we can score on Blair and others in Iraq. Remember that the war on Iraq is now under the ICC jurisdiction, so a lot of people will have a lot to answer for later.

  Besides, if Milosevic is responsible for the gangsterization of the Yugoslav internal politics, he shouldn't be in The Hague. But even then, his alleged co-responsibility is nothing compared to the role the US has played in the gangsterization of the Yugoslav internal politics. And lest we forget: do you think the UN and EU sanctions helped to clean the business scene in Yugoslavia or did they only make the corruption worse?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 7:00 am
  

  Jari what is your point?

  I have a little Latin here for you, you can linked to the Reformation perhaps:

  Qui bene bebit, dormit

  Qui dormit, non peccat

  Qui non peccat sanctus est

  Ergum, Qui bene bebit sanctus est!

  Now, bombing countries, wheter Yugoslavia or Iraq (II) is a criminal act, especially the way the "brave" Yanks like to do it!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 10:22 am
  Simon, of course you've read about Seselj somewhere, that's what I've ment when I said west has pointed a finger. How about instead of believing your newspapers or ICTY, come over here and talk to the people who actually were in the war? It could be worth an investigation what those volunteers did, if it was performed by neutral people. I hope you never get to be judged by such a court as ICTY, you would be surprised how easy it is to convince your surroundings that you're a maniacal murderer (it would help if you are a Serb by accident). Of course, you could count on a web-site of people who would believe you're innocent until prooven guilty.
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 11:02 am
  Mr Trkla

  "Your innuendo is clear and it paints every Serb with the same brush, the old saying “birds of a feather flock together”. " Please don't try to paint me as some anti-Serb bonehead

  It is alleged that Seselj or those he controlled committed war crimes in an attempt to create a "Greater Serbia" The timing of the investigation and manipulations of the NWO take second place to the actual allegations in my mind, is there substance to them or not, I know there's substance to your claims.

  "They are spending CIA money to finance Labus and Djindjic"

  And how do we know this, assumption, educated guess or cash trail?

  "Is this coincidental that this should all take place at the time of the elections in Yugoslavia, particularly at the time when Seselj seems to be the popular choice."

  So you would have the population of Serbia make an uninformed choice and vote for an alleged war criminal, would Serbs want a war criminal as President, what then for Serb pride? As for Seselj being the popular choice, I draw your attention to this recent article:

  Labus leads Kostunica in Presidential race | 12:23 | B92

  NOVI SAD -- Wednesday - According to a recent poll, independent candidate Miroljub Labus leads Democratic Party of Serbia candidate Vojislav Kostunica by 3 points in the Presidential elections.

  A survey carried out by a Novi Sad based firm gives Labus a majority of 27 percent with Kostunica 24. The poll sampled 1,740 residents throughout Serbia between 5th and 11th of September.

  However, Kostunica is the most trusted politician followed by extreme nationalist leader Vojislav Seslj, Labus third and with Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindic fourth.

  Asked who would make the most successful President, 40 percent said Kostunica with only 26 saying Labus.

  According to the Polls director Milka Puzigaca the surveyed show that if the parties entered the elections individually, Kostunica’s DSS would get 17 percent of the vote, Djindic’s Democratic Party (DS) 14 percent, Seslj’s Radical Party (SRS) 10 percent, and 7 percent to the Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS).

  If the ruling DOS (Democratic Opposition of Serbia) coalition were to contest the elections en bloc, it would get 27 percent; DSS 19 percent, and the SRS, third with 10 percent.

  "I have always supported the unity of the Southern Slavs and I will continue to champion reconciliation."

  Expand on this please

  Should we ignore or surpress certain allegations because we don't like the manner in which they were brought to our attention?

  You have made your case against the NWO and shown that Milosevic can not get a fair trial, your case is proved. Now for the sake balance how about the case against Seselj et al, is there one and if so why do many here avoid any meaningful debate that may put any Serbs in a bad light, is the aim of those here to solely cast Croatia,BiH,KLA,NATO,USA or NWO as the bad guys. The credibility of those who like the entire western media focus on only the wrong doings of the "otherside" is limited in my opinion.

  Its well known [here anyway] why Clinton, Blair et al should be charged with war crimes, its been debated here, its even taken as read that they are guilty, so who exactly are the guilty Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and Albanians and what exactly are they guilty of.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 11:04 am
  Gogol, of course bombing Yugoslavia was a criminal act. But let's save the world one case at a time, and this time, the case is the Milosevic trial. The prosecution/judge team are not only morons, but they have to be made accountable for being morons and screwups too. What I am doing is thinking of ways to make them accountable, and the way justice can happen IMHO only through the Dutch justice system. If that doesn't work, this is not going well.

  I am tired of people complaining that nothing can be done because the whole system is so rotten. The reason I cited the Reformation was to show that at that time the people felt the same, but when the system is so rotten as it is now and as it was then, it won't take many people to make it collapse. You could just as well use Galileo Galilei to make the same point. Or the liberation of the Balkans from the Turkish Yoke.

  In Iraq, the accountability can be extended to the Western politicians more directly, because many of them are under the ICC's jurisdiction (just let's see if the ICC works well only on paper). That way, it is possible to settle scores with them for Yugoslavia too - if only indirectly. In itself, Iraq II is a bit more complicated than the bombing of Yugoslavia, because the invasion could be construed as self-defense, whereas the Yugoslav bombing campaign could not.

  Finally, it is indeed strange that the Seselj "investigation" takes place just before the presidential election in Yugoslavia. I suggested that another reason for initiating the "investigation" now is that the Bosnia and Croatia phase of the trial is beginning and the prosecution has nothing, so it has to go through a couple of motions. Milosevic's responsibility presupposes the convictions of Karadzic and Mladic first, because they were supposedly his henchmen! You can't first convict Milosevic for something they did and then convict them based on the conviction of Milosevic.

  But one can't deny that the whole mess has an undeniable link to the presidential campaign. Stipe Mesic said that his testimony will have effects on the Serbian presidential campaign! Of course, I read it in B92 bulletins, and as Judge May said, the tribunal is not swayed by articles in the press. The tribunal is going to sentence Milosevic professionally, and a little unprofessionality from incompetent co-workers should not tarnish the tribunal's allegedly professional image.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 11:30 am
  More mixed messages from Washington: Bush sends a letter of thanks to Djindjic for the Serbs' contribution to the fight against terrorism. Could it be that the Bush administration has no clue with what to do with Serbia? Serbia is after all one of the remaining "rogues states" in the world. It doesn't add up. The Rogue States are terrorists according to the same viewpoint. http://www.b92.net/english/news/index.php?lang=english&version=standard&my_categories_class=%27News%27&nav_category=&nav_id=19331&order=priority&style=headlines .
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 11:35 am
  Mr Oparnica

  My readings on Seselj come from many source's, none of them the western media who, suprise suprise hardly ever mentioned him until recently. I agree an investigation by neutral people is the best way, but who's neutral the UN,ICC?

  As for you "Serbian Paranoia" because thats how I see it, fear not, I've never met a single soul who thinks that Serbs are somehow inherently evil, pre-disposed to mass murder or guilty of all the worlds crimes. You are like us in the UK, ordinary Europens who worry about our children, education, health and taxes, there are a few exceptions out there but they also think all Blacks are drug dealing rapists and when a women says no she means yes.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 11:43 am
  Mr Nousiainen

  Could it be that the US views Yugoslavia as "rouge" because of Kostunica but Serbia as friendly because of Djindjic?
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:01 pm
  If you have a point at all, you should say that Seselj as President would continue to keep Yugoslavia a rogue state, while Djindjic as President would make it a partner of the US. Bush doesn't say that: he speaks of the Serb people, and Seselj is a Serb too. One must not overestimate the refinement of the statements made by the Bush administration.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:02 pm
  Simon:

  "They are spending CIA money to finance Labus and Djindjic"

  And how do we know this, assumption, educated guess or cash trail?"

  The cash trail appears to be sufficient. Given the fact of Labus having been part of the Kostunica-Djindjic team back in the 2000 election, and having on record the massive, illegal and shameless financing of the anti-Milosevic coalition by the U.S., there are no reasont to doubt that Labus and Co. will accept more cash from helping hands.

  Key quotes (U.S. media, mind you):

  “We have read them the riot act.” Madeline Albright on her meeting with the Yugoslav opposition figures Berlin, December 17, 1999

  “The money from the West is going to most of the institutions that the government attacks for receiving it … sometimes in suitcases of cash carries across the border between Yugoslavia and Hungary or Serbia and Montenegro.” Steven Erlanger, New York Times on September 21, 2000

  “What happened and how it happened is our thing and should be left as our thing. Now is not the time to look into these matters.” Nebojsa Covic, DOS leader, October 2000

  “Otpor... flush with funds from Western aid groups and governments, WITHIN THREE DAYS of Mr. Milosevic’s July 27 announcement of the presidential election Otpor has six tons of printed campaign material ready “He’s finished.” Steven Erlanger, October 15, 2000, The New York Times.

  The Washington Post, the cornerstone of the Beltway political and media establishment, in its December 11, 2000 article entitled “U.S. Advice Guided Milosevic Opposition,” admitted that “The U.S. democracy-building effort in Serbia … in principle … was an overt operation, funded by congressional appropriations of around $10 million for fiscal 1999 and $31 million for 2000.”

  The article confirmed that the campaign slogans of the DOS during the election campaign were scripted by their Washington managers. The famous “Gotov je” (He’s finished) stickers that covered Serbia in the weeks before the election, were paid for by USAID and delivered by the Washington-based Ronco Consulting Corp. In the words of Stevanovic, a marketing expert of the Kostunica-Djindjic tandem, every word of the opposition's core political messages and sound bites used during their anti-Milosevic quest was discussed with American political public relations consultants, tested, rated, and approved. The DOS coalition aiming for the Yugoslav parliament and scores of local government seats took part in an extensive public relations coaching, paid for by Western funds, and aimed on conveying the anti-Milosevic agenda, reply to the inquiries of the Western press and refute the reasoning of the pro-Milosevic camp.

  The journalists pursuing the links between the U.S. financing and the opposition have been bluntly warned by Djindjic people not to contact those under the suspicion of having been traitors. Nebojsa Covic, a leading opposition figure was quoted by the Wall Street Journal as saying that “The recipe for such events has a price.” (Was Serbian Revolt People’s Alone? WSJ, October 23, 2000). Pressed by the price tag, he hinted that it was “enormous”, however, shied away from being more precise. His conclusive statement sums up the moral underpinning of the forces bankrolled by the U.S. in their successful quest of unseating a legitimate government: “What happened and how it happened is our thing and should be left as our thing. Now is not the time to look into these matters.”

  As far as the financial backing of the Yugoslav opposition, even before the Kosovo war, the U.S. was spending $10 million a year to back opposition parties, "independent" news media, and other institutions opposed to Milosevic. In the 2000 fiscal year, through September, Washington spent $25 million to support Serbian “democratization,” with an unknown amount of money spent covertly.

  Steven Erlanger of the New York Times, always a master of managing to present invaluable information within the framework of the customary anti-Milosevic comments noted that the “independent journalists and broadcasters here have been told by American aid officials “not to worry about how much they’re spending now,” with much more coming. Indeed, there has been very little effort to disguise the fact that Western money paid for much of the polling, advertising, printing and other costs of the opposition political campaign.

  That's the kind of background Labust is coming from. These people will sell their own mothers for a buck.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:04 pm
  Or actually, Bush doesn't speak of the Serbs but Serbia. Maybe you're right. But that goes to show what the rest of us are saying: the presidential elections are being manipulated from Washington.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:13 pm
  Simon: "I've never met a single soul who thinks that Serbs are somehow inherently evil, pre-disposed to mass murder or guilty of all the worlds crimes."

  "..because they [the Serbs] are evil people." Madeline Albright, TV interview, on record.

  "The Serbs are murderous assholes." Richard Holbrooke, on Ted Koppel's Nightline (ABC), on record.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:16 pm
  Jari: the definition of "rogue" [as in "rogue state"] is "someone who attacks others without provocation"

  Pause and reflect.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:20 pm
  Provocation? JWR: "This week, Hussein renewed his periodic promise to 'wipe out' Israel. Few here treat those threats as mere bluster."
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 12:50 pm
  Andre

  I have never met Albright nor Holbrooke and stand by my statement. You confuse politicians with real people. The more this "sudo-reality" is voiced the more likely it is that Serbs will feel that we real people think like this, which we do not.

  Heavens forbid, should we think that we are persicuted by the Serbs because they think our leaders are war criminals and they want to see them answer for their crimes in a court. Milosevic, Seselj et al are no more Serbia than Clinton and Blair are the US or UK.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 1:16 pm
  Jari: "Provocation? JWR: "This week, Hussein renewed his periodic promise to 'wipe out' Israel."

  If Israel feels threatened by Iraq, then let ISRAEL attack Iraq and see what happens.:) Iraq DID NOT threaten to attack the U.S. Period. Yet our imperial masters want a war, no matter what. In fact, mounting further conditions for the "unconditional" weapons inspection that will be hard if not impossible for the Iraqis to meet, the U.S. following the Rambouillet script: provoking Yugoslavia into rejection that could justify the bombing, already scheduled since October 1998.

  Rumsfeld yesterday changed the strategy of enforcing the "no fly" zones over Iraq, expanding the list of targets, to increase the "safety" of U.S. and British pilots.

  The idea that our planes go out and get shot at with impunity bothers me." - Rumsfeld

  All the previous parallels between Iraq and the Nazi Germany (we can't afford to sit idly, appease, while...", etc.) were in vain. A far more obvious parallel would be Germany's launching WWII while arguing that Poland posed a mortal threat to German interests.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 1:28 pm
  Simon: "I have never met Albright nor Holbrooke and stand by my statement. You confuse politicians with real people. The more this "sudo-reality" is voiced the more likely it is that Serbs will feel that we real people think like this, which we do not."

  I have never met them either. But I have been listening for years to the people who set and executed the shamless U.S. interventionist policies against Yugoslavia.

  What people think is of no concern to the above trend-setters. After all the rich proletarians in the U.S. can be manipulated into thinking whatever our imperial masters want - we have a well-greased PR mechanisms and unscrupulous media for that.

  Dissent among the "ordinary" people has been rather rare over the years of official Serb-bashing. The public by-and-large is more inclined to follow the convenient soundbites in their bovine placidity and intellectual laziness.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 1:30 pm
  “Lords of Creation” by Margaret Cook

  First things first: Never mind Seselj let’s deal with the prime mover.

  To be published in a few weeks time the book above examines the nature of some of the political beasts that rule us. According to Auslan Cramb, Scottish correspondent for the DT, Margaret Cook claims that some leaders are put in touch with very primitive instincts when they gain great power. “Once they step into it (power) they seem to develop a psychosis of power addiction.”. She hopes that society will eventually learn to choose better leaders. Some hopes given our ‘meeja’.

  Margaret Cook, a retired consultant haematologist, is the former wife of Robin Cook Blair’s Foreign Secretary during the Kosovo debacle. Not only is she a medical doctor but she also knows both Cook and Blair. In a former publication she described Robin Cook as “A heavy-drinking womaniser and questioned his political integrity by suggesting that he chose ambition before principles.” In “Lords of Creation”, Cramb informs us, she categorises Blair as a Sabre-rattler.

  I am pleased to have some of my claims confirmed by such an authoritative source. It has been my contention that the war on Serbia was Blair’s decision: Yeah or Nay: And he has often boasted of his leading role in this attack. Without the backing of the other Nato leaders Clinton was too weak, because of the impeachment, to endorse Albright’s ‘What is the point in having this great power if you never use it’. With the possible exception of Germany the European leaders would never have gone along with the illegal attack on Serbia without Blair’s Sabre-rattling. The massive lies he propagated then now demonstrate his dishonesty and thus lack of principle. If he had acted on principle and spoken out against it then there would have been no attack on Serbia.

  So what was Blair’s calculation? Speculation: Muslims have a relatively large constituency in Britain especially concentrated in certain regions where they may easily decide the outcome of elections: Serbs have no political power in Britain!

  Oil pipelines in the pipeline now that the west has Serbia firmly by the throat: Following the agreement to build an oil pipeline between Macedonia and Kosovo, fed by the Greek/Macedonia link, an agreement has been reached to build a pipeline for Caspian oil through Rumania, Serbia and Croatia. What price now on the much denied AMBO pipeline being the third runner in this race and if not do KLA/KPC/… terrorists have only themselves to blame?
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 1:47 pm
  Andre

  Mass demonstrations against the NATO bombing in the US and throughout the western world show there are many people who think for themselves, this was widely broadcast on the mass media, atleast here in the UK.

  Support for a POV that differs from your own does not nessesarily indicate "bovine placidity and intellectual laziness" but could point to support, that is thought out, and based on the personal benefits gained through your nations acheivement of its goals. Mankind has always treated morals as disposable.

  If the general populace were that placid and lazy, you and yours would have won your battle as "thinkers" a long time ago. As it happens it appears that those with your views/morals/politics may well be being out thought, scary!
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 2:05 pm
  

  Do peoples deserve the governments they actually get?

  Jari, I wish it was Gallileo's trial the ICTY was condcuting.

  The ICTY failed before it started, it failed during the trial and its final failure will set the stage for the ICC's desired failure.

  The ICTY has its budget cut . . .how interesting!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 2:06 pm
  Simon:

  “You can fool some of the people all the time, and those odds are good enough for me.” W.C. Fields

  I had my share of the 1999 rallies in Boston and Washington, with few "ordinary" people showing any interest in the affair at all. Some "ordinary" people shouted "f*** the Serbs" of called ME ignorant (as one who coud not fathom the wisdom of media networks' drumbeat "but Dan Rather TOLD us that Serbs are bad", etc.)

  Ignorance is where the real power is and that's exactly what our imperial masters are banking on.

  Peace.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 3:08 pm
  Mr Taylor

  "First things first: Never mind Seselj let’s deal with the prime mover." Why not explore the case of Seselj and Milosevics sudden change of heart. I'm intregued with Seselj and why Milosevic would want this man at the helm of Serbia given what his party thought of him in 93.

  http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/chronology/chron93.html

  "After the initiative of the Serbian Radical Party on passing a vote of non- confidence to the Republic Government, a statement of the Socialist Party of Serbia was distributed at the press conference that took place in Belgrade. Among other things the statement says that the Radical Party policy and behaviour of its leader Vojislav Seselj has been contrary to the SPS policy and interests of the Serbian people, that it reflects an extremely primitive chauvinism, hels bringing about isolation of Serbia from the world, stimulates warmongering atmosphere in Serbia, and that the society it strives is a insane combination of feudal autarchy and war communism. At the end of the statement it is said that "all political democratic forces and all honest people should join the fight against the evil personalized by Seselj ('a petty- politican from Sarajevo')"."

  Now I'd be worried if I were a Serb and this man were head of the Serbian state.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 4:12 pm
  

  Pavkovic runs in the elections and the ICTY investigates him too: HERE

  Is the ICTY part of the electoral authority like NATO is?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 4:39 pm
  Mr Charlemagne

  "Pavkovic runs in the elections and the ICTY investigates him too"

  This is old news, he has been under investigation since December 2001

  http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Bilteni/Engleski/b061201_e.html#N6

  ICTY BELGRADE OFFICE REPRESENTATIVE CONFIRMS PAVKOVIC UNDER INVESTIGATION BELGRADE, Dec. 5 (Beta) - A representative of The Hague-based International War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) office in Belgrade, Matias Helman, announced on Dec. 5, that an investigation was being conducted against Yugoslav Army Chief of Staff Gen. Nebojsa Pavkovic, but added that it did not mean that Pavkovic would be indicted.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 4:49 pm
  

  but added that it did not mean that Pavkovic would be indicted.

  How many categories of "investigations" do they have in order to run in the elections, is Seselj also "not meant to be indicted"?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) & (UNILATERAL)

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 5:06 pm
  Mr Charlemagne

  Chronologically your on dodgy groung, Pavkovic is or was under investigation THEN decided to run for president.

  This should please you though

  Hague to indict Kosovo Albanian this year | 21:11 | Beta

  PRISTINA -- Wednesday -Carla del Ponte said today that she expected the first indictment of a Kosovo Albanian to be issued by the end of this year.

  The Hague Tribunal prosecutor said that a number of Albanians were under investigation

  And this should bring a smile to your face

  Hague drops Bosnian Croat genocide charges against Milosevic | 21:12 | SRNA

  THE HAGUE -- Wednesday - The Hague Tribunal prosecution has been given until September 26 to file changes to the indictment of Slobodan Milosevic for crimes in Croatia and genocide in Bosnia.

  A Tribunal spokesman said today that the revised indictment would abandon the charge of genocide against Bosnian Croats.

  The changes are an attempt to bring the trial to an earlier conclusion.

  Don't you just love that last paragraph :)
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 5:25 pm
  Mr Charlemagne

  Also

  How many categories of "investigations" do they have in order to run in the elections, is Seselj also "not meant to be indicted"?

  No he's meant to be investigated, the resaults of the investigation can lead to an indictment or they can lead to no indictment, common practice in law. My problem is WHO's doing the investigation.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 5:37 pm
  

  Now the UNO Secretary has something to do with it:

  Moscow - Russian committee for protection of Slobodan Milosevic asked today UN General Secretary Kofi Annan to suspend the process against former Yugoslav president before the Hague Tribunal. A letter sent to UN General Secretary states it is ‘quite clear the first phase of the process against Milosevic ended with fiasco’, reports the information service of the committee, lead by sociologist Aleksandar Zinovyeff. The head prosecutor of the Hague Tribunal Carla Del Ponte could not produce either reliable testimonies or documents affirming accusations in regard with Kosovo events. The letter also says the ‘inevitable fiasco shall follow in case of the indictments regarding Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina’. The committee thinks process against Milosevic should for these reasons be halted, and Milosevic should be released.

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO & UNILATERALIST)

• Wednesday September 18, 2002 at 8:14 pm
  Mr Simon I apologize if you feel that I have painted you as an anti Serb bonehead. What did you expect me to think when you state that I dismissed Seselj and “swept him under the carpet” without comment “because he's a Serb”. I am not well informed on Mr. Seselj to comment. In order not to be called a bonehead, I avoid commenting on things on which I am not competent. What I like about him is that he is telling America and NATO to Kiss my _____. Would I vote for him if that is the only thing I like about him? No.

  First of all the "Greater Serbia" is a Media invention of the West and Croatia to demonize the Serbs. In fact it is Croatia that wanted hegemony over Bosnia. In 1978 a terrorist group from Australia attempted to destabilize Yugoslavia but they were killed by the same people that they supposedly came to liberate. In the 1970’s in my part of the world there were three Croat terrorist training camps in BC. Hijacking of planes and assassination of Yugoslav embassy people was common in the sixties. How we tend to forget. Please don’t tell me that Serbs wanted a Greater Serbia because that is absolutely false. The Yugoslav idea was born in Croatia in the nineteenth century but the Serbs paid in blood for its creation.

  Simon America since its creation has used its financial power to undermine other nations to go along with their needs. Remember the “Dollar Diplomacy” Policy in Central America. Remember the Cuban sugar stockpiling in order to depress the price of sugar in order to destabilize the Island economy. Oh yes they have aided Brazil, Chile, Mexico, Argentina, and on and on because it was in their interest to do so. I am not sure who said it, Roosevelt maybe, or Wilson “they are sons of a bitch but they are our sons of the bitch”. Need I say more?

  Common Simon, you ask me to provide you with a cash trail and you provide me with polling statistics. Give me a break! You write “According to the Polls director Milka Puzigaca” all indicators are against Seselj. You tend to neglect to tell me who is greasing Mika’s pockets. I have not seen one polling agency that is not in the pocket of a vested interest and I believe in Santa Claus.

  Mr. Simon Andre has answere the question of the money trail but in your tit for tat with Jari, Gogol Andre and Peter you tend to ignore his brilliant response. Why?

  Yes I have always supported the unity of the Southern Slavs because that is the way my adopted father brought me up. As a History Major at UBC I had brilliant professors, Dr. Conway an Englishman and Dr. Avakumovic, a Serb who taught me to judge people by their character and deeds rather than by their words. Look at the history of the Serbian people in the Balkans and you will see that more of them died so that Croatia can be free, so that democracy is protected than any other group excluding the Greeks. Read the lectures in a book format titled “The Serbs” by an Oxford professor (name is lost) and you may understand my point. Croats Muslims and Serbs once they get rid of the likes of Mesic, Isetbegovic and Seselj they will reconcile their differences.

  As to the Guilty Croats, Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Serbs, Simon, you only need to read the Archives, Andre’s especially, and you will know who should be indicted.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 2:59 am
  Gogol, I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you in favour of continuing the Milosevic trial if the US wants to end the trial in order to wriggle around the ICC?

  Andre, I think my view on Iraq is simply the more justifiable one. Check the JWR article for yourself at http://jewishworldreview.com/0902/halevi.html . It says among others: "Thousands of Israeli health-care workers have been vaccinated against a smallpox attack, a prelude to vaccinating the entire nation". Would all Israelis go through a smallpox vaccination just for the sake of propaganda? On the other hand, if there concern is real, it should be real for all of us, because with smallpox Hussein will not be able to wipe out just Israel but the whole mankind. The suggestion that about Israel attacking Iraq alone is the kind of nitpicking we have learnt to expect from Mr Bonehead. Of course Israel has the right to ask for any outside assistance.

  It would be nice if things were so black-and-white: the US all evil - and hence we must resist all its actions - and the rest of the world good. Don't get sucked up by the conspiracy theories. If you do the words of the former Israeli PM Eban about the Palestinians would describe us: "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." If you want to win, you mustn't refuse every offer because you think you can't trust those people.

  The trouble is that I have immense difficulty to make up my mind about Bush. Why does he thank Djindic for Serbia's fight against terrorism and yet prolong Serbia's rogue state status? Does he think no-one will notice? It can't be the way Mr Bonehead suggests. Kostunica had come back from the US, so if Bush doesn't write him a letter, does that mean Kostunica is the cause of the rogue state status? Neither can it be that Bush wants to differentiate between the Yugoslav federal government and the Serbian provincial government, because the federal government is also called "Serbia and Montenegro".

  I am not sure what Mr Bonehead is driving at with his anti-Seselj theories. He quotes former differences between the SPS and Seselj, but at the same time seems to suggest that the cooperation with Seselj brings to light some secret motives behind Milosevic's policy. I think we have gone through the motives behind the Seselj nomination. Milosevic has said that they have had differences but now Serbia's interests are at stake. If you don't like Seselj, that is a political choice. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about the choice the Serbs make, because it is their choice. Just holding radical views is not a crime, let alone a war crime.

  Does he just want to show that he can miraculously predict the prosecution's policy, without directly influencing it? Does he want to show us that there are people who think they can think for themselves and yet think exactly the same way as the prosecution? Boy, the prosecution and the like-minded people must be really desperate to target mentally lazy people like us. Does he want to show that the ordinary boneheads are not boneheads but that it is the Serbs and the pro-Serb people who are boneheads, because they think the ordinary boneheads hate the Serbs. I think we have enough first-hand testimonies confirming the anti-Serb sentiments, including Mr Bonehead, who is "strangely silent" about the blocking of 115-million-dollar "aid". He is also strangely silent on the wildly gyrating Serbian opinion polls, which have been shown to say what the outside benefactors want to hear. He is also strangely silent on the fact that an investigation of Seselj doesn't necessarily mean an indictment. But he is also strangely silent on the fact that making common knowledge of the investigation could have an effect on the presidential election. Are you a Muslim or some other ordinary European, or why can't you make sense?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 5:19 am
  And now for something really important:

  Click here: Logic defeats lies

  Source: http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~fjgil/Trucks.html
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 7:17 am
  ICTY's Matias Helman showed some uncanny foresight in December 2001, about 9 months ago, when he said that Pavkovic was under investigation but added that this didn't mean he would be indicted. Never truer words spoken. But we remember Pavkovic from another context, and that is the whole point why Pavkovic investigation should be addressed at all. Here you have some hint what are the grounds why the prosecution indicts some people and doesn't indict others. And as to Mr Bonehead's question who should investigate Seselj and others, let me remind you that it is ICTY that does the investigation. It is pitiful for you to turn philosophical when everybody knows that ICTY conducts the investigation. The question on everybody's mind is: why now, and if you, Mr Bonehead, are any closer to the answer than the rest of us, you surely aren't very open about it. Let me remind you that Seselj had offered to go The Hague to meet the tribunal but he was refused a visa!

  If Gil-White's magnificent article shows anything then at least the fact that there are some other mentally lazy people out there. And you can be mentally lazy to accept his theory, because it basically refutes the whole Kosovo indictment on page 1! All the other stories are for those who have an exceptional ability to retain a lot of loose facts that don't form a coherent picture. Let that be your consolation.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 9:19 am
  Simon, tell me please more about my paranoia, I would like to be cured. When I was in Stockholm recently I've met some engineers from Turkey. We were having fun during my stay there, and they were interested to come and see Yugoslavia. However, they asked me is it safe, will they be killed because they are Turks? I thought they were kidding, no, they were deadly serious. The Turks may be more honest and less-mannered then English, but I think the prejudices are the same. English IFOR commander I've talked to in Bosnia has explained to me how before comming to Bosnia he was informed that Serbs live half-naked in the trees, with knives in their teeth. Everyone I've met in Sweden and Finland was claiming it doesn't matter to them where I am from, yet, nobody ever asked me how it was for us in the past 13 years, nobody ever expressed any interest in hearing about or comming to my country (I am talking about ordinary people, not academics). They for sure think of Yugoslavia as a sinkhole, so although they might not be racists, they would believe any evil is possible here, therefore would believe any accusation from the West is just. Not that I blame them, the only people allowed to get out of Yugoslavia were the refugees, preferrably Muslim and Croat (Serbs were denied visas). That was neccessary to keep the wall of silence, to keep the other side from being heard. We were even denied participation in world sports activities. You're rejecting the fact that we've been demonized, when from each foreignor that comes here I hear the same comment that they have never expected the Serbs to be so nice, that they've been fed with lies.

  You call me paranoic, yet your biggest interest currently lies with investigating Seselj, that's your priority in justice. You've witnessed here on this site the amount of misery and injustice we Serbs have suffered. You've taken our land. You've killed thousands of our civilians. You've banished over a million of Serbs from their homes. You've ruined our economy. You've polluted our environment. When you've lost a Milosevic in power as an excuse, you've made us turn over our citizens to your corrupt court. You've promised a fair trial for those. You feel witness lying in court is good enough justice for Serbs. You promised protection for Kosovo Serbs. You let them at mercy of KLA. You claim the biggest problem on Kosovo is that the Serbs are not willing to cooperate, to let Albanians in North Mitrovica, Serb last shelter on Kosovo.

  Yet you claim you love us. You offer us a hand, here let me help you up. Then you say no,no, first get on your knees I wanna see you respect me. Here, let me kick you. What was that you said, "ouch, what was that for?". So you're resisting, huh? You don't see the wisdom in me, you don't trust me? You dare rather to trust in yourself after all I have accused you of?!

  So, it satisfies your concience that there were mass demonstrations against the bombing. That's for you proof enough what common people think and that Serb are paranoid. Let me remind you of gay parades, they are massive enough in UK, should I think that all common people in UK are gays?

  I am not afraid of your people but of your politicians. But only if people of UK would know the truth I could sleep easily. Politicians depend on popularity.
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 9:51 am
  A matching item from Jared on the freezer truck hoax:

  http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/freezer1.htm
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 10:05 am
  War is a disease caused by political action. It is not an immunization against evil. What century are we in anyways? America should be the moral force in the world, but they refuse to take the moral high ground. After World War One they isolated themselves in Fortress America and abrogated their responsibility to shape a better world. Today they are the main horse of the Apocalypse “ardent for some desperate glory”.

  War, for American presidents, is a way of creating a legacy and turning the decline in popularity and a downturn in the economy in their favor. Bush’s planned invasion of Iraq is that simple. West’s policy against Iraq since Britain took it from the Ottoman Empire has been abysmal. The Empire mentality continues with Bush as the new Emperor. He wants it all in the Middle East, oil and the money, and if it takes a war to do it, his legacy as a great president is assured at least for a short time until the Americans realize “Dulce et decorum est” is a big lie.

  Where does Blair fit in all of this? The Blair and Bush dance before their honeymoon, the war against Iraq, reminds me of the Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier dance with Hitler to the music of Appeasement. One beats the drum while the other one sings in the background. They don’t want to do anything without each other. Iraq is no Germany of 1938 and Saddam is no Hitler but the dance duo would have us believe that Saddam is a clone of Hitler. After New York even the chickens in America will believe if Colonel Saunders tells them that he wants to invade Iraq to protect them. You only need to listen to Rumsfeld on PBS when he actually said that Saddam is more of a threat to the world and America than USSR was during the period of Mutually Assured Destruction. JIM LEHRER continued to cluck. To be fair go to the interview at http://www.pbs.org/newshour/ .
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 11:05 am
  Why this sudden renewed interest in our lowly discussion from Mr Bonehead? He sure seemed to take it personally when I said that the judge/prosecution team are morons. The same happened with the suggestion that the Dutch judicial system should look into the judge/prosecution team's activities.

  Maybe they don't have the Dutch system in their pocket. That should encourage us to try to make any contact with the Dutch establishment. The Dutch Minister of Justice is Mr Benk Korthals. I am sure you can find the address.

  If Mr Bonehead is really as moronic as he seems, that is a sure sign that he is one of the team. He certainly knows the details of the indictment circus better than any of us. He is a pro.

  His postings about Seselj some time ago were not a lucky guess. He says it shouldn't have been a surprise to us that Seselj is now under investigation. However, Mr Bonehead is the only one who is not surprised.

  But of course, he is not a real person and I have never met him. It doesn't matter if this unreal person says that he has never met anyone with anti-Serb hatred. Who could "Simon Joseph" meet? It is a pseudonym. So he can say whatever he likes, and he does. It is hard to believe that someone is really that stupid.

  Let's suppose he is from the Office of the Prosecutor. We have to suppose this because we are mentally lazy and we can't entertain more possibilities than one. It is a sign of their desperation that he said earlier that the prosecution had managed to show nothing. That would explain why they should now harass us. On the other hand, if his assurances of the lack of anti-Serb bias is any indication, that shows that he doesn't believe in what his anti-Serb work, but he is doing it anyway, because they are all professionals.

  By the way "Bonehead" is not meant as a sign of disrespect. It shows at least that you are not a jellyfish or any other lower life form ("low" is not meant to suggest that these life forms are somehow inherently evil, for instance, I have never met anyone who would think jellyfish are particularly prone to murder.)

  So if you have any questions to the Prosecutor, I think you can ask Mr Bonehead. Me first: Is it true that the prosecution team are really such morons, or is it just the image they have to maintain as public figures?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 12:48 pm
  Just for the record. Notice the long pause between this and the former message by comparing the times at which they were posted. Quite a difference compared to the hectic discussion yesterday.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 3:07 pm
  

  Jari says:

  Gogol, I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you in favour of continuing the Milosevic trial if the US wants to end the trial in order to wriggle around the ICC?

  I think and I repeat the ITCY is utterly illegal, set up by the big powers to exculpate themselves for their crime and to use it , like the Inquisition was once used against the Dutch and Germans, to submit a people and break their resistence.

  The ICC is the oposite, it was created by a large concensus, bringing the protection of the Law to the weak, to the exposed to abuse and in its shape and form it is a threat to big powers hegemony and whimsical policies in their pursuing of the exploitating of our planet and its resources, human and material resources.

  In this context and considering the ICTY was a rather corrupt expression of President Carter policy, foreign policy based on "human rights", policy the Republicans in America have always rejected (Nixon would have obliterated Belgrade and certainly Baghdad), the only use the present administration can make of the ICTY is to set the stage for the failure of the ICC.

  I am surprised the Bush boys have not starved the ICTY already, they have imposed a strict budget as explained by Mr. Wladimiroff (NATO) complains and when months ago Richard Propsper (NATO) toured Europe saying the ICTY should finish its bussines sooner than later, the Bush boys had to accept the fact the idea was not popular in the rest of NATO land: "you had convinced us about the virtues of a show trial, and show trial we shall"

  Mr. Milosevic case should had been dismissed 10 dayss after the start, when it was clear the prosecutor, the clown and comedian, had nothing to show but hearsay: but aha, there is a curtain in these guignol's theater which is never raised and yet the press speaks of the educational weight of a show trial.

  It is like the Russian proverb: "We shall see, said the blind man"
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) & (UNILATERALIST)

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 3:29 pm
  Bogdan

  Thank you for you informed and passionate post

  I think you have made many assumptions about me.

  For the record I don't support NATO's involvement in the Balkans and I don't support the ICTY. What I do support is the investigation of all allegations of war crimes even when it does not sit comfortably with my own view point or politics. Having met many Serbs, I lived in west London and there was a Serbian cultural centre near by, I've found them, well just like any other UK ethnic group, ordinary hard working and fun to be with.

  Yes your right Serbs have suffered and so have all other ethnic groups in the Balkans as a result of Nato and the UK governments interference, I'm angered, ashamed and embarrassed by this, what can I say?

  I still say that those people that I have met do not express the view you hold of the Average Brit and of that shown to you by, what we here in the UK would call a "chinless wonder", the Ifor Comdr.. Your absolutely right that in the western media Serbs were and to a degree are still demonised but hand on heart here, my personal experience is that your not viewed as evil, barbaric or racist murderers by Joe public here, Albanians however are viewed as undesirables,pimps and drug dealers. If you think that just because people don't enquire of you "how it was for us in the past 13 years" shows they don't care, I think you would be wrong, most Europeans know what it was like to live through a war, W.W.II is recent history, relayed to us by grand parents, through the class room and on TV weekly if not daily, I for one don't need to ask what it was like for you, I know it was hell.

  Back in 92 I had a young 17 yr. old Bosnian Serb, Dusan(sp?) working for me, he was here illegally and lived with his older sister. His application to stay in the UK was turned down, rather than return he took his life, his sister told me why after the funeral, so yes I know some of the suffering of the Serbs and more particularly his family.I was told of events that I believed were crimes against humanity ,since then more crimes have been committed by ALL sides, Nato then compounded this by committing their own war crimes in the name of humanitarianism (BHAH!) So yes I want all these allegations looked at, KLA,Serb,Croat,Bosniak and NATO. I absolutely will not accept any bulls**t that belittles any allegation because some one sees their cause as somehow more politically correct. justice for all I say.

  "Politicians depend on popularity"

  Not here in the UK, I'm sure Mr Taylor will have something to say on this but at the last General election, Blairs party gained around 35% of the vote, but the voter turn out was way below 70%.( % from memory) but none the less the Blairites are hardly a "popular" party in the real sense of the word.

  I've not been able to give this response the time it deserves, short of time at the moment but I did not want to be accused of not responding at all.

  Respect!
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Thursday September 19, 2002 at 3:33 pm
  Mr Trkla, Walter if I may?

  I've no bone's to pick with your first two paragraphs,the pre 60s stuff is new to me and I thank you for that

  "Common Simon, you ask me to provide you with a cash trail and you provide me with polling statistics. Give me a break! You write “According to the Polls director Milka Puzigaca” all indicators are against Seselj. You tend to neglect to tell me who is greasing Mika’s pockets. I have not seen one polling agency that is not in the pocket of a vested interest and I believe in Santa Claus."

  Ok it was unfair of me to ask for a cash trail and I'll agree that given the US financing of the last poll its highly likely they are doing the same now. If you dispute the findings of Milka Puzigaca maybe you'll let us know why instead of attacking me for not including Milka's financial CV.And your source for " particularly at the time when Seselj seems to be the popular choice." is what?

  "Mr. Simon Andre has answere the question of the money trail but in your tit for tat with Jari, Gogol Andre and Peter you tend to ignore his brilliant response. Why?"

  Because it was just that"brilliant". I read it, sat back and thought "he's right they did it then and in all probability they are doing it now" It was a silly question on my part, sorry. I never thought to post a "pat on the back" for Andre maybe because I was feeling ever so slightly silly for having asked for the obvious. "Croats Muslims and Serbs once they get rid of the likes of Mesic, Isetbegovic and Seselj they will reconcile their differences."

  I whole heatedly agree, but under one state, I don't know, maybe this is too much to ask? "As to the Guilty Croats, Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Serbs, Simon, you only need to read the Archives, Andre’s especially, and you will know who should be indicted."

  So you agree entirely with Andre? Mr Nousianen

  "Bonehead"? ah well if it make you feel superior, do you want a nick-name too? :) "Why this sudden renewed interest in our lowly discussion from Mr Bonehead? He sure seemed to take it personally when I said that the judge/prosecution team are morons." I did? when was this? My only dispute with the moron term would be its not preceded by bloody!

  "His postings about Seselj some time ago were not a lucky guess. He says it shouldn't have been a surprise to us that Seselj is now under investigation. However, Mr Bonehead is the only one who is not surprised." You not read the Miloseevic indictment then? He not mentioned as a member of the so called "joint criminal enterprise" does not the ICTY purport to investigate criminals? Mr Nousianen, your a true oracle, a giant of a man with an intellect to match, I'm truly impressed you've sussed me, I'm Carla DeLponte and I'm here because my case is failing, my creds as low as whale sh-t and I thought if I won you and your pals over I could save the day.:)

  I'm sorry I don't wholly agree with your views and I'm upset that your upset enough, you feel the need to make stuff up about me.

  I'm hurt, deeply, but I'll get over it maybe over the next weeks and months I'll regain some of the respect I held for you:)
  
  Simon [aka Bonehead] Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 12:40 am
  Jari & Carla (a/k/a Simon - you're SO busted!!):

  Even if you perhaps did not intend to do so, nonetheless thank you so much for cheering me up at the end of a hard day. Your exchange cracked me up in a very good way, not common at such bloody serious forums. Laughter has a therapeutic value - maybe we should do it more often.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 12:44 am
  What's all this bold stuff? Chalk up one more mystery. Good night all.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 12:50 am
  Before I forget:

  Gogol, excellent post. The proverb is not Russian though, but Hungarian. The original goes as "Majd meglatjuk, ahogy a vak is mondta". It has no matching equivalent in Russian to the best of my knowledge.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 3:31 am
  Let's see, Mr B.

  I can't find Pavkovic mentioned in any of the Milosevic indictments, yet he was under investigation in December 1992. On the other hand, the "joint criminal enterprise" that was mentioned included "Slobodan MILOSEVIC, Radovan KARADZIC, Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC, General Ratko MLADIC, Borisav JOVIC, Branko KOSTIC, Veljko KADIJEVIC, Blagoje ADZIC, Milan MARTIC, Jovica STANISIC, Franko SIMATOVIC, also known as 'Frenki,' Radovan STOJICIC, also known as 'Badza,' Vojislav SESELJ, Zeljko RAZNATOVIC, also known as 'Arkan,' and other known and unknown participants."

  How can you single out Seselj from this list of "known and unknown participants" so confidently and just at the right moment? Why now? Maybe Seselj wasn't under investigation earlier, because it was rumoured he would testify against Milosevic? But how could Mr B make the connection so readily? His rhetorical question: "Does not the ICTY purport to investigate criminals?" (and the deliberately bad English which he uses in the sentence) only shows that he knows he is really "SO busted".

  On the other hand, Pavkovic was under investigation, even if he was not mentioned in any of the indictments, because his services were needed to gather evidence. That is why the investigation didn't mean "that Pavkovic would be indicted". (Matias Helman didn't even say "necessarily indicted" according to Beta. Mr B sure knows his stuff.)

  Notice how conciliatory Mr B has suddenly become. A couple of days ago he wrote:

  "Support for a POV that differs from your own does not nessesarily indicate 'bovine placidity and intellectual laziness' but could point to support, that is thought out, and based on the personal benefits gained through your nations acheivement of its goals. Mankind has always treated morals as disposable. If the general populace were that placid and lazy, you and yours would have won your battle as 'thinkers' a long time ago. As it happens it appears that those with your views/morals/politics may well be being out thought, scary!"

  On the other hand, now he even agrees the judge/prosecution team are "bloody morons". Is that now the well thought-out position? Maybe he was really trying to "win me and my pals over," because that could have saved his day.

  He again fails to make sense when he says: "Maybe over the next weeks and months I'll regain some of the respect I held for you."

  What respect? Isn't it obvious that he was "deeply hurt" already, maybe at my suggestion that the prosecution team are morons - maybe not. Sure, his words were a response to Andre's ("The public by-and-large is more inclined to follow the convenient soundbites in their bovine placidity and intellectual laziness"), but that should not be a reason to take it as personally as he obviously did.

  And Mr B, don't think you can make me feel as if I owed you anything for your "respect". That is only one of your cheap shots that are so familiar with.

  Also notice his studied sarcasm. He says: "And this should bring a smile to your face" when he breaks the news that Hague drops Bosnian Croat genocide charges against Milosevic.

  Have you practised that sentence before the mirror, Mr B?

  He also says: "Don't you just love that last paragraph" when he refers to the explanation that the changes are an attempt to bring the trial to an earlier conclusion. Why the sarcasm if he really agreed with us that the prosecution are bloody morons?

  Mr B, I didn't say you were Carla, did I? It is interesting you should bring that up. If I had meant Carla, I would have said "Mrs Bonehead", wouldn't I? Or maybe you chose to become "Mr" Bonehead, instead, so you could think you could outsmart us. Maybe you really wanted to feel superior, which is now what you are now accusing me of. Besides, I thought I said it quite clearly that "Bonehead" was not meant as a sign of disrespect. I think you are blowing this out of all proportions. Or did you really think I had the obligation to call you "Simon Joseph", who is kind enough to tell us that he lives in "Amman Valley"? Besides, aren't you still "strangely silent" about the things I pointed out?

  But back to business. If the Americans want to end the Milosevic trial, I am not sure what makes you say no. Of course there are strings attached, but if there weren't, you should get really suspicious. And now that chronology seems to matter so much, let me ask you when Bush prolonged the rogue state status. Wasn't it in May? A lot has happened since then, among others the support for the invasion of Iraq is eroding. The situation lives the whole time and you have to live with it. Bush sent his letter to Djindjic this week to express his gratitude for the Serbs' role in the fight against terrorism. So these two documents are clearly contradictory with each other, but there might also be a general trend. The reason the rogue state theme was suddenly revived is because the Congress thought they would withhold some more money. But what the Congress does is not what Bush does. And the Congress has learned to take its marching orders from the ICTY, which might be why it now marches to a different tune than Bush. Notice how our representative of the international community, Mr B, tried to bring Bush's letter into line with the Congressional policy. I don't believe that. There must be a reason why Bush took the risk of contradicting himself.

  I am not elated by the Iraqi campaign but I can see the point. In fact, it would be inappropriate for me as a non-American to express any emotional support, but that doesn't mean I can't support it. So I would say: "Bush, you are on the right track but do something about the ICTY quick!"
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 4:10 am
  Read this article by Srdja Trifkovic. It goes into some of the legal points we have discussed on this forum but fleshes them out a bit more. http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/
  Trifkovic/NewsST032000.htm . I am glad Mr B decided to be on our side, because that the right choice.

  Let me correct myself. I should have said in the previous posting that Pavkovic was under investigation in December 2001 not 1992. And mind you, I wouldn't have known that if it weren't for Mr B. No-one would.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 4:22 am
  Before you start idealizing the Russians (or belittling them, depending on the viewpoint), don't forget that they can bargain too: "Russia has asked the United States for economic guarantees worth tens of billions of dollars, plus help getting into the World Trade Organisation (WTO), in return for its support in the campaign against Iraq."

  This phenomenon is called Planet Earth. It is a bargain.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 10:13 am
  Question:

  How can a "joint criminal enterprise" include "other known and UNKNOWN participants"?

  I mean if they are unknown to start with, how does one know that they part of the said "criminal enterprise"? But then again, the Prosecution's psychic powers may be limited.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 10:41 am
  Very well put, Andre. There is something really fishy going on here, to start with Mr B. He enters this discussion with the pseudonym "Simon Joseph" and raises the issue whether Milosevic's proposed nomination of Seselj as a presidential candidate might have any impact on Milosevic's case. This week we hear that Seselj is under investigation. In comes "Simon Joseph" again and instantly denies that this investigation has anything to do with the presidential campaign. Does seem a bit self-contradictory, doesn't it? No, he says, it was all in the cards. When the Bosnia indictment came out about a year ago, it should have been clear to everybody that in about a year Seselj would be under investigation. And the timetable of the investigation was predestined. It couldn't have been put off by a couple of weeks until the presidential election was over. And then comes Mesic with his big mouth and says his testimony will have an effect on the election. And still Mr B denies everything.

  Why would he deny the obvious, unless he had something to hide? Why would he have something to hide, if he didn't feel guilty? Why would he feel guilty, when nobody has accused him of anything (until now)? If he blurts out his guilt like this, he should be under investigation himself. Maybe it's Freudian: an irresistable urge to be caught. Then it doesn't matter if he is one of the prosecution morons or some other morons. At least he is some big shot. Can't you here the "don't-you-know-who-I-am" tone in his voice? And yet he doesn't answer his question.

  Well, you couldn't have predicted the Seselj investigation. Take the known and unknown participants. Take Pavkovic who was not mentioned in an indictment at all (unless it was under the "known and unknown category"), yet was under investigation. Judging by Mr B's conduct, he had a hand in the developments. I don't know what is his problem. He wants diverging viewpoints on this forum but doesn't contribute anything beyond the cryptic. Maybe he wants to believe that some freethinker would arrive at the same conclusions as the prosecution. He just throws us ideas and tests their plausibility. But why would he do that until he is from prosecution or close to it?

  Calling his colleagues "bloody morons" doesn't show anything. I could call all the participants on this forum morons. After all, they are my "pals". I'm a moron, but I would be "deeply hurt" if someone I don't like called me a moron. Sure, Mr B went a bit too far with his criticism of Del Ponte, but I think at this stage that is the least of his worries.

  It is at least nice to here that he has such a lot of compassion to the Serbs. It doesn't seem to bother him that they are starving. Can't be helped. Let's save them by indicting Seselj. After all, we are trying to save the Serbs. But the dumb Serbs don't get it. They think the tribunal is picking on them. The story about the suicide was tragic. It reminds me of Mr Nice's crocodile tears at the end of the trial when he told about the Bosnian rape victims.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 10:57 am
  By the way, even if we can agree that the prosecution are bloody morons, we are not in agreement whether the failure of the case is their fault or not. I insist that they failed, because they had nothing to start with. In that case, they shouldn't have started the case or should have started in a much lesser scale. But there seem to be those that believe that a good lawyer can do miracles with little or nothing. These are those who have the need to hide their own crimes by accusing the Serbs, and when the plan fails they take it out on the prosecution, which to me seems to be even below baseness.

  And now the prosecution is trying to hide its tracks by embarking on this investigation orgy against the Serbs! This is not going to end well.
  
  J N
  Finland

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 11:11 am
  Simon, you don't have to thank me for my participation on this forum. There is some inner need in me to write here, something that keeps me obsessed to the point where I neglect my other duties which may cost me my highly-paid work. I am one of the rare people in Serbia that can boast of having a good job and aside of other things good internet connection and ability to travel abroad. I've always considered it my duty wherever I am to perform the role of an ambassador for my country, I think that in theese bad times each Serb in the world must try to perform this role. Our strength is not in our military, economic power or powerfull allies. Our stength is truth, truth about what happened, who we were, who we are. Those who are our true enemies know that very well, and they want to take away that weapon, to disarm us, to substitute it with a cynical distorsions that will leave even those trully neutral with feeling of 'inevitable', 'mad', 'tragedy for all', 'war is hell' picture, in which none and everybody is to blame, and NATO put a merciful stop to it by stopping the strongest side. WRONG PERCEPTION! The wars on Balkans ARE NOT a tragedy for all, they were NOT inevitable, there was nothing MAD about those who made them. Stop leading us to the wrong conclusion that if sufferring of Croats=suffering of Muslims=suffering of Serbs, then we should be happy with a conclusion that goals of Croats=goals of Muslims=goals of Serbs and guilt of Croats=guilt of Muslims=guilt of Serbs. Croats have wanted their own state, conveniently enlarged by Tito, they wanted Serbs out of it. They've sold their soul to the devil (NATO) to do it, as they've sold their soul to Hitler in WW2. All of the subsequent suffering of Croats and Serbs in Croatia was caused by the course they've taken and solely is to be blamed on Tudjman and his followers. I see absolutely nothing wrong that the Serbs in Krajina have stood up against being forced to live in a Nazi creation of Croatia, very similar in it's ideology to the one they've suffered from in WW2. For the whole duration of war Serbs in Croatia were only defending the parts where they were majority, their ancestral lands, they didn't come out of Serbia and invade Croatia as it was presented by your media. At the beginning they didn't even want the separation from newly-created state of Croatia, they wanted authonomy, they wanted their rights protected as the constitution of the new Croatian state has declared them minority, and they were being fired from jobs because they were Serbs, so they loose their means of life support and have to leave to Serbia. They didn't just jump into a nationalist frenzy out of hatred that they felt towards Croats, they were made by Croat authorities to feel unwelcome at their own land. When the war broke out, they fought valiantly and bravely against more numerous enemy, they've managed to keep their positions and managed to keep status Quo and long lasting cease fire, with UN shield between the sides. THEN NATO CAME AND BOMBED SERBS IN THE NAME OF PEACE, MADE THEM LEAVE THEIR HOMES, MADE ETHNICAL CLEANSING OF CROATIA FINALLY BE EXECUTED BY CROATS IN IT'S TOTALLITY THUS FINISHING THE WORK HITLER STARTED AND CROATS HAVE BEEN DREAMING ABOUT!!! All of you who talk about reconcilliation, oh how naive you are. Croats, even now when they've got all they wanted out of this war, still find reasons to keep hating us and feeling they want to hurt us more. Each day during the bombing of Serbia by NATO, on Croatian news, at the end of the broadcast they would wish "A clear sky and a nice weather in neighbouring Serbia". The recent interview of Croatian sea turism workers showed that 100% of interviewed people told they would rather have their capacities empty and not earn a cent during the season than have Serb tourists back. It is not said in vain that the money drills where drill cannot, but sometimes even that fails. If you look at the area of business, the goods exchange between Croatia and Serbia now that the trade links have been re-established has a proportion 1:4. So, Serbs buy 4 times more Croatian products than Croats buy Serbian. Most of the Serb products bought by Croats are the ones they don't have their own substitute for. If you want to talk about reconciliation, go ahead, but you're wasting your time on the wrong side. We never wanted Yugoslavia to break apart in the first place. But if you mean that we should forgive without even being asked by Croats to forgive, like we did after WW2, and even that we should ask them forgiveness, that we should cover ourselves with ashes and blame it all on our leaders forget it, it's not gonna happen. If this court was ment to make us guilty of wanting Greater Serbia it miserably failed. There is nothing wrong in punishing the war crimes, but why do you inflate the numbers? Why are you so selective, why you are again acting impartiality, but in fact pressing only Serbs to deliver war criminals? (here by 'you' I mean West in general not you as a person)

  Simon, don't worry, I don't have bad assumptions about you. The fact that you are participating here is alone worth admiration. You have your views and you're not afraid to show them even if they will be exposed to very tough critics. It is very good for the purpose of discussion to assume a standpoint different than of majority in order to see what will survive criticizm, and what will fail, so you have a better grasp on truth. It doesn't neccessarily mean you don't agree with the everything said so far.
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 12:14 pm
  Andre

  Yes my brevity was intended, how could I take Jari's accusations seriously. In my very fist post here I stated what I thought of the ICTY and Milosevics alleged guilt at this phoney court, I also so said that any variance from the agreed view here would release the hyenas, Jari stepped into that role with relish :) I happen to agree with many of his views and those of most others here, but I do have an agenda and that is justice for all, regardless.

  I have been lurking around various Balkan and ICTY related newsgroups and discussion boards for about 1yr now, I've learned a lot, confirmed some of my beliefs and changed others, this is my first active role in any debate, to me the whole subject is addictive though I do find some theories difficult to comprehend (should have stayed in school past 16 :( ).

  Now, Seselj and my current fixation with him(there will be others). Allegations have recently resurfaced and the ICTY has announced they are investigating him, most here, rightly point out that there is a political motive behind the timing, but there it ends, no-one has to my mind asked is there any grounds to the claims and if so what are they, why?

  Seselj came to my attention more or less from day 1, mainly in connection to his call for a greater Serbia and his links to paramilitary groups, so when he pops up as a presidential candidate with Milosevics support I think "?" This man is (how would you put it Jari?) a defacto co-defendant of Milosevic and one of the few senior, pre 2000 Yu politicians to publicly claim Milosevic is guilty of war crimes and that he would go to the Hague and tell them(source is lost)he also claimed the plans for the Bosnian war were made in Belgrade

  These are some of the allegations levelled at Seselj:

  Seselj, as leader of these Serbian paramilitary formations, reportedly took part in ethnic cleansing, mass tortures, and killings carried out in 34 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Seselj's paramilitary units reportedly took part in mass killings in Bratunac, Brcko, Prijedor, Visegrad, Zvornik, and Bijeljina. Seselj's followers also ran Sonja detention camp in Vogosca.

  Since 1995 the Serbian State Security Service has been conducting a campaign against the criminals who used to work for it, but are now only unpleasant witnesses to crimes. The body of "White Eagle" Miodrag Djordjic-Johnny from Kragujevac, who in 1996 informed foreign media about the role of Radmilo Bogdanovic and SDB in supplying paramilitary formations, was pulled out of the Morava River in September 1996. He drowned after someone shot him with a 9 mm gun in the head while he was fishing. In late October 1996 Dragoslav Bokan, a leader of the "White Eagle," was arrested in connection with a robbery which took place four years previously.

  http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/white_eagles.htm

  We all want a President for Serbia who will stand up to Nato/US but is Seselj Presidential or criminal and if the later, what then for Serbia should he gain office?

  Walter

  "Please don’t tell me that Serbs wanted a Greater Serbia because that is absolutely false."

  This does not tally with some of my readings, don't get me wrong here, I don't advocate that this wish for a "Greater Serbian" state is wrong, provided its with consent not war, why not.But (here's that man again) Seselj included it in his manifesto of 91 and again I think of 96. In 91 prior to the "Greater Serbia" manifesto he gained 96.277 votes in the Presidential poll, this raised to 1.125140 / 1.730581 / 1.222381 / 1.378097 during the various polls of 97. I hazard a guess that there were some Serbs, many refugees from Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo maybe that did wish for a Greater Serbia and voted accordingly. Given their treatment in other area's of Yu who can blame them?

  As a foot note, Seselj never published any method other than a democratic one to achieve this aim.

  Mr Nousianen

  The Amman Valley is a rather beautiful area of South Wales, named after its market town Ammanford (Rhydamman), I know I'm real my names on the cheque book that I pay all the damn bills with. Now you can try and wind me up with you childish jibes but I'm made of stronger stuff so please yourself. Your an intelligent man, I can see that, I'm only a motor mechanic and one time employer, self taught no college or Uni. but I have views and I should be free to air them without the fear of ridicule from those who should know better, its not that I take it personally, I'm disappointed knowing the usual level of debate here. Of course if your an intellectual elitist and consider I bring the level of debate down to a level beneath you, kindly ignore me.

  Now, nuff said?
  
  Simon [aka Bonehead] Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 2:34 pm
  Bogdan

  Thanks for your kind words, its nice to see you not using Jari's crystal ball and tea-leaf reading with regard to my reasons for being here.

  Correct me if I wrong but I get the feeling you think reconcilliation is not going to happen in the Balkans, how then do you see the future?

  I started off with great faith in the ICTY but this evaporated when after what seem like a 15 min investigation they dismissed allegations against NATO, where do you now see justice comming from, home courts?( Serb, Bosnian, UK etc) There's certainly no noise comming from Kostunica's Yu version of the South African truth and reconcilliation commision, whats the news with that, closed down already?

  Just stepping back a day or so and your comments re tourism to Serbia, thinking back the only Yu destinations I ever saw advertised in UK (pre war) was the Croatian coast, Split etc. I was looking for info on likely places to stay a while back, but there's little on the net.

  I have never travelled, my wife has, but I have a major phobia about flying and break out in a sweat if I even think about it, silly eh? But my wife and I are planning a 3mth "Grand European" driving tour in 2004, Belgrade and Split are on the list. Ever been to Wales? I met a Montenegrin last year who thought it some what like home but not as green.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 2:42 pm
  Simon

  Do you know anything about Krajina, and Bosnia? Have you heard for the "State of Sloveinas Croats and Serbs" formed October 31 1918, If so please explain? Do you know how Croatian border has been made, who made it and when? Do you know the borders and history of Serbian land and people? What did you mean when you speak about "Grater Serbia"?
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 5:01 pm
  Pero

  If your looking for a history lecture your asking the wrong man, I know what in terms of your (assuming your of Balkan heritage) knowledge is very little about Bosnia,where Croats and Muslims fought Serbs, then everyone fought Muslims. Krajina where Serbs were either ordered to leave by their own or cleansed by Croats. The Kingdom of Serbs (1918-1929)an allied concoction, Tito and his boarder manipulations of 54(?), So if you don't mind I'll pass on that particular mine field

  When I say "Greater Serbia" I mean a state that includes all the neighbouring lands of other states where Serbs were the majority. As Seselj's party put it in 91:

  http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9803&L=twatch-l&P=R39183
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 5:12 pm
  

  Simon Joseph, don't miss this oportunity to take the History lesson, it is more relevant than you think; see once upon a time in the seventh century . . .well, I will let the natives tell it.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) (UNILATERALIST)

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 5:35 pm
  Gogol

  I'm happy to read and learn, what I'm not about to do is trip myself up with what even I think is my limited knowledge of Balkan history. I have read so much about the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans, who the Albanians were or were not related to and who converted who to what, why the Croats see the orthodox as heratics and why the orthadox see the catholics and muslims as traitors to the true faith. I have had major problems seeing the wood for the tree's as every faction has what to me appears credible source's for their claims. I concluded, some months back that they all must have at least some Slav blood in their vains.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 7:26 pm
  Simon: "Croats see the orthodox as heratics"

  Actually no. The Orthodox see Roman Catholics as heretics, which is true. Croats can't have an upper hand there, theologically speaking, so they resorted to some kind of cultural superiority complex, and regard the Serbs as savages. Why? Desperate inadequacy and identity loss. The Croats always hated to be Slavs, imagining that they are Germas of sorts, and projected that self-hatred onto the Serbs. But that's a long story.

  Peace all.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 7:26 pm
  More re Krajina

  Seen this recent article, smells like panic in the ranks:

  Washington Times: Hold the Hague accountable

  http://213.191.154.38/default.aspx?c=306&lang=eng
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 7:40 pm
  Andre

  "Question:

  How can a "joint criminal enterprise" include "other known and UNKNOWN participants"?"

  Yep your right either they knew the whole story or they didn't, if they didn't what are the doing in court, making it up as they go? "I mean if they are unknown to start with, how does one know that they part of the said "criminal enterprise"? But then again, the Prosecution's psychic powers may be limited." Ah psychic powers, just like those displayed by Jari ;-)

  Sorry cheap shot, I'm only human.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 7:57 pm
  Andre

  Yep I see your point, Orthodoxy was there first, but (trying not to sound too argumentative)

  From WordNet

  heretic

  n 1: a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church [syn: {misbeliever}, {religious outcast}]

  2: a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion)

  Respect Bro!
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 9:14 pm
  

  Religion was the pretext, the really diferences were and are economical.

  Foreign powers used religion as the tool to intervene, gain influence.

  The base of any society is the economy, the religion, culture, customs but not the language are part of the super-structure.

  Language is independent and operates on its own . . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn, USA (NATO) (GLOBAL)

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 9:17 pm
  Simon. Truth & reconcilliation comissions in Serbia would be capitulation to NATO. Milosevic is working hard to prove he was right. Kosovo was lost under his watch and to let it go without a fight would be a crime. Finland lost Karjala to the USSR, and to this day they resent it. Slobo has a chance to at least let the world know that the might of the US. split his homeland, not any fault of the Serbs.
  
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  BC Canada

• Friday September 20, 2002 at 11:38 pm
  (Free Serbia) Carla went to visit Milo.She was concerned about his health,and wished him a speedy recovery.I tought they were not on friendlly terms.
  
  Vasile Ianos
  NJ

• Saturday September 21, 2002 at 7:59 am
  Pertti

  Milosevic is ONLY doing a good job in the eyes of those who have the time to follow the trial via the court feed on the Net, have you seen the mass media coverage?

  There is a need, in my mind, for a for a public Balkan forum where the truth is told independant of US/Nato influence, where the "truth" tellers are not employed by NATO/ICTY. Such a forum would be a thorn in NATO's side. Winnie Mandella's crimes came to light via the SATRC why not NATO's by way of the BTRC?

  Big lies are built upon small lies and silence, take away the silence and the whole lot will come tumbling down.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Saturday September 21, 2002 at 11:01 am
  Simon says that he does not know the history of the Balkans since he left school at 16. I think that is BS. Several posts back I intended to ask him to lay his cards on the table but Jari beat me to it. I think Simon is Name Withheld reincarnated. Yes Simon you are right, Seselj is an enigma who was arrested by Milosevich five times. This alone according to your assessment of Seselj should exonerate Milosevic.

  Simon you are fishing and I am biting so later in this post I will attempt to give you a short history of the Serbs, even though, I know that you probably know it better than I.

  Simon your comment about Dusa is touching. It reminds me of people who say that they have a black friend and as a result they are not racists. Furthermore, that comment is an innuendo saying that the Serb Diaspora is full of guilt ridden Serbs that are suicidal because in the past they have committed atrocities that they can’t forget. Is this a hint that Milosevic, the Serb will commit suicide because the Slavs have a Dark Side to their psyche?

  Simon I still stand by my post that the Serbs did not covet a grater Serbia; they just wanted what was theirs. If you examine land registry of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire you will see that the Serbs owned 80% of B and H in fee simple. If you also examine population statistics just prior to WWI you will see that out of the population of 1,900,000 people in B and H 1,820,000 were Serbs and Croats. When Seselj calls for a Greater Serbia, you Simon, go back to painting all the Serbs with the same brush, back we go to “birds of a feather flock together”. Even though, I don’t believe that in a polyglot state like B and H it is possible for Serbs or any other group in B and H to have self determination why is the West promoting self determination for everyone except the Serbs?

  Simon you complain about Jari calling you a “bonehead” but it seems to me this is just what you want him to do. You sign your post Simon [aka Bonehead] Joseph. This reminds me of a schoolyard bully saying “I dare you, I double dare you”. Leave it be Jari he is taking you away from what you are good at, exposing lies that Simon seems to try o camouflage with his good guy bad guy posts.

  Bogdan, in your post you address my hope for reconciliation and after reading what an intelligent man has to say about the future in this part of the world, my hopes are dashed like toothpicks in a cyclone. I hope you are wrong. I know the hurt that you feel, because I feel it as well. During the bombing and the conflict in B and H I was an emotional basket case. I wonder if the likes of you and I are, as is said in Herzegovina “praznu slamu mlatimo” threshing empty straw here but it is good catharsis.

  Bogdan, I also know that the Croats joined the Serbs, both after WWI and WWII because they knew that if they did not Croatia would, geographically, be a “piss hole in the snow”. Croatian history is one of inferiority complex, since they only had a state for a short time back in antiquity. This inferiority complex during WWII and even now has gone to the point where they even imitated the German language by stringing words together. For example, during WWII they called a belt “okolotrbuhapantalodrzac” or ‘aroundthestomachpantholder”.

  Bogdan, I am not suggesting that the Serbs turn the other cheek for the third time; however, I am suggesting that they must take the higher moral ground as they have done every time in the past. The locusts have devastated Serb lands from East and West and the Serbs have recovered in the past and they will recover once more from this desolation. The price was horrendous in human suffering and life lost of both sexes and the backbone of the nation, the peasant, has never submitted to slavery.

  Well here I go Simon, a history lesson in a nutshell. I have bitten hook line and sinker. I know that you want to tire me out but that is OK, catharsis you know helps me sleep, so I apologies to those who know the history of this region.

  According to the map of the Crusades, by Professor Clark of the University of Kentucky, Serbia in 1095 to 1291 encompassed the area of present day Bosnia (Neretva River to the North West, Adriatic Sea to Skadar in Northern Albania, Kosovo and parts of present day Serbia to Belgrade and Sava River to the North. The division of Christendom, the Great Schism, divided the Christian Church into Orthodox East and Catholic West with the demarcation line through the center of eleventh century Serbia. For the Serbs the great schism has proved a great tragedy. The Serbs to the West of the schism line were converted to Catholicism, thanks to the Jesuits, while those to the East fought to stay Greek Orthodox.

  There are three geographic area that one can call Serbia. These are Serbia proper, Old Serbia and Serbian Macedonia. Serbia proper is located around Belgrade; Old Serbia includes Sandjak, Kosovo to Bosnian. Macedonian Serbia includes Skoplje and most of Kosovo where much of Serbian history and religion is centered.

  The location of Serbia at the crossroads between the East and West was the land bridge for invaders in both directions. Romans, Germans, Austrians, Franks, Russians, Britons and the Ottomans wanted control or influence over the Balkan Peninsula. Invading armies used this corridor to pass through or they controlled it so others will not pass through. History is cyclical and Anglo Saxons led by America are on the march again as are the Russians. The New World Order requires control over this strategic corridor and Serbs are in their way.

  As I mentioned earlier, many Serbs live outside of Serbia in the lands to the West, the lands that were initially settled by them on their arrival in the Balkans. Here I speak of Bosnia and Herzegovina where at the start of the twentieth century out of one million nine hundred thousand inhabitants most of them were Serbs.(1917 stats New Europe). After the defeat at Kosovo and the Turkish confiscation of the lands of the nobility the peasant population, what was not enslaved, taken into harems, or sent to Turkey to be trained as Janissaries, settled in the borderlands of the Austria Hungary, in present day Krajina, Banat and Backa where they became border guards for the Empire. As long as Serbia remained “SERVIA” the Empires did not strike back.

  Serbia was conquered by the Turks in the fourteenth century (1389) and Belgrade fell in 1521. The “Guardians of the Gate” against Islam experienced their Dark Ages. From a race of painters, poets and law makers they descended into slavery and the only way out was to convert to Islam.

  The Turkish rule was oppressive. The blood tax, the harems, the tribute and if you resisted the “trklja” a sharp pole on which those who resisted were impaled through the rectum. These poles were placed at river crossings or in front of town gates so that all that passed saw what happens to those that resist.

  Two forces saved the Serbs from extinction; the Orthodox Church and the gusle. The Turks did not overtly force Islam on the subject people. They gave them a choice Islam, tribute or the sword. Some Serbs and Croats converted to Islam and became the bureaucracy, gentlemen folk living in the cities, the raja or peasants paid tribute and were allowed to go to their church.

  The second influence in this Dark Age of the Serbs was the epic poetry that allowed the people to dream of salvation by mythical supper heroes like Marko Kraljevic, who on his winged horse Sharac, provided protection and killed Turks by the thousands single handedly. These songs were sung to the accompaniment of the gusle, a single string instrument that wailed the lament of the poetry. The songs were learned by heart, and people in a late evening would gather around the guslar to listen to myth and reality of the golden age in their history.

  I learned these songs myself from my adopted father in Canada. He had a pleasant voice, and trips in the car usually meant him singing songs about Kosovo. It is through these songs that I first learned about Kosovo and the defeat of the Serbs. In his late eighties my father and my Croatian father-in-law, who was my father’s age, would sit in the apple orchard in Kamloops and play a game called “shije” where one exposes certain number of fingers trying to match the other. When they tired of this game they would start a duet singing the old songs about Kosovo. My father-in-law knew them by heart as well. One can see that these songs were passed down from generation to generation.

  These songs were a link between the past and the present. They told every Serbian child not to forget the past, to work so his people will be free again. The mothers, in the image of Kosovska djevojka , the Kosovo maiden were taught to sacrifice for the day of freedom. At every christening of a Serbian male child in Herzegovina the mother would say “One more son for Kosovo”. The mothers were reminded, what is one son in comparison to the sacrifice of the great mother Jugovic who sacrificed nine sons in the Battle of Kosovo.

  The church and the songs were a link with the past, the hope rested in Montenegro which was populated by Serbs who lived in what the Turks called the Karadak. Crna Gora as the Serbs call it remained free after centuries of war. The saying “put a Montenegrin in a desert and he will act as a warrior, put a Bulgarian there and he will turn it into a rose garden” tells you that life of a Montenegrin was a life of constant warfare. Some anthropologists suggest that Montenegrins are the tallest people in Europe because the small and weak were killed in battle. Darwinian, natural selection at work I would assume. Italian king, I think it was Emanuel, married a Montenegrin princess in hopes of having tall children.

  In Sumadija outlaws, and from Krajina hajduci or uskoci (modern day guerillas) attacked the Turks. This gave people hope and rebellions started in Herzegovina and other parts of the Turkish Empire. Dubrovnik played a key role in the life of the Serbs. Traditions and culture was saved in this walled fortress and her merchants spread this culture and hope for liberty among the Serbs, along the trade route towards Constantinople. The hope for freedom also rested in Dalmatia, which was controlled by the Vatican and had a large population of Serbs who settled there in the fourteenth century. The guerrillas used these areas as sanctuaries after attacking the Turks in the interior. Same was true of Krajina, Banat and Backa, which were the borderland between Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire. For example, the great Serbian inventor Tesla, his mother’s family, the Smiljanic’s, were officers in the military district in Krajina.

  As you can see Simon the Serbian aspiration for freedom were controlled by Austria from the north and the Ottomans from the south. The British supported the Ottomans while the Germans supported the Austrians and added to this mix were Russians. Tsar Nicholas’s grandmother was a Montenegrin. Montenegrins are well known for their boasting and they used to say “Us and the Russians are an alliance of one hundred and eighty million”. The population of Montenegro at that time was little over three hundred thousand. Russian interest in protecting Orthodoxy, warm water ports and expansion into the Mediterranean added a volatile mix which exploded into WWI.

  Serbia lost one person in three in WWI and Wilson would have given them the Greater Serbia that you speak of Simon but that was not their agenda. Croatia’s reason for joining the new Kingdom was self preservation. Actually the Yugoslav idea was championed in Zagreb as I said before in a previous post, it was paid for by Serbian blood. Post WWI generation of Serbs, Croats and Muslims, who lived in North America, the generation that I know well, shared their common heritage like my father and father-in-law.

  The rise of fascism in Europe, and political instability and infighting in the government in Belgrade, led to the popularity of the Ustase movement in Croatia. Assassinations and other violent acts by the Ustase undermined the unity of the Kingdom. When WWII broke out Greater Croatia was a reality and the Serbs, Jews and Gypsies paid the price that even the Germans were ashamed of. Over seven hundred thousand Serbs were exterminated in the Croatian concentration camps at Jasenovac and Gospic and much of the killing was done by priests and nuns. Those that they could not convert they killed.

  Simon, I visited Yugoslavia several times and once went to Krajina and went to several village graveyards looking for tombstones of relatives of some Canadian friends, and you know Simon in two of these villages, in one area of the cemetery all the people had died on the same day. Need I say more? In the Italian controlled Dalmatia the Serbs fared better because Italians did not allow the killing in the areas under their control. In 1943, as the Russian armies were knocking on the German door the Croats saw the light and started to join Tito and the Partisans. WWI all over again, save ones ass and join the victors. Once again the Serbs paid in blood for the creation of post WWII Yugoslavia

  After WWII, Tito wanted to create a balance between the republics and attached Istria, Dalmatia and Slavonia to Croatia and took Kosovo and Vojvodina away from Serbia. Simon since this is for you, I have posted previously what took place to destabilize Yugoslavia in the post WWII period. Here you are Simon, history lesson in a nutshell and I am sure others will dispute this but that is history. Simon my catharsis is over at least for today. Yours without prejudice.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Saturday September 21, 2002 at 1:13 pm
  Walter

  Excellent stuff, thanks. Some of it I had read, much of it is new to me but you have certainly added meat to the bones of what I did or thought I knew. It explains the passion I see in many Serbs when talking of recent events.

  "Simon says that he does not know the history of the Balkans since he left school at 16. I think that is BS." Its not that my understanding of Balkan history is limited because of leaving school at 16 its that I feel I lack the education to fully comprehend some of the therories you guys explore to explain events, some of it goes over my head and no matter how hard I try I fail to make sense of it.

  Dusan had nothing to hide, he was a victim who(in short)had seen both parents murdered and been told to leave his village and never come back or he'd be skined alive(as his sister put it), I don't understand how you could twist this into I think that because he was a Serb he had some dark past and was guilty of some horrible crime, he was nothing but a frightened kid for Gods sake!

  "I think Simon is Name Withheld reincarnated."

  What? "Yes Simon you are right, Seselj is an enigma who was arrested by Milosevich five times. This alone according to your assessment of Seselj should exonerate Milosevic."

  Wlater, I'm asking questions about Seselj, no-one seems to want to answer, instead they seem to want to attack me for doing so, whats so wrong with adding another facet to the debate? As for Milosevic, exonerate him from what the bullsh-t in the the 3 trumped up indictments, come on Walter do me a favour, I have to wonder would I be fending off all the bull had I entered the debate with "What do you guys think of the Gotovina inditement and the US claims they had nothing to do with operation storm"

  You and Jari have made claims about me, I'm not going to try and change your minds anymore its a waste of time but for the record:

  Some views I think we share:

  NATO/US/UK and Germany were the cause of the Balkan wars.

  ICTY is not a court its a holding cage for scapegoats and more often than not those scapegoats are Serbs.

  I ask a few question about Seselj and suddenly I'm Baalzebub's evil older brother, what gives?

  
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Saturday September 21, 2002 at 8:48 pm
  

  I like Walter's history of the Serbs and that is probably the way I will tell it to my grand children when ready to understand it.

  I like to add the importance of language since when Croatia longed for nationhood the lack of an specific different national tongue create some problems. There were in Croatia two dialects of Serbian as well as Serbian widely spoken and failing to adopt any of the two dialects, for obvious reasons, Serbian was to become Serbo-Croatian or the national language of both Croatia and Serbia.

  Macedonian, a language since 1944 was considered the oldest Serbian dialect and disputed by the Bulgarians, an Slavised folk of Tuckish or Atar origin.

  Tito created Macedonia

  The piesme of Kosovo are epic songs as important as the French and universally known Chanson de Roland or the Spanish poema del mio Cid

  Also, krajina frontier land, advanced guard: the name tells it all.

  Who controls the past controls the present, and who controls the present controls the future

  ignorants of the World awake!
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) (HEGEMONIC)

• Saturday September 21, 2002 at 10:01 pm
  Justice for all regardless.

  Simon: If only. This will not be achieved by the seagulls of the ICTY picking on the sardines behind the trawler and ignoring the sharks: to mess up a phrase from the great MU philosopher/footballer Eric Cantona.

  Do not be fooled by del Ponte’s dissembling. It is some four years now since KLA terrorists committed massive crimes of abduction, torture and murder in Klecka and Glodjane: And subsequently ethnically cleansed Kosovo of its minority population, murdered some two thousand of them and confined the remainder to ghettoes: While given the protection and thus tacit support of Nato. First del Ponte promised indictments later in the year now it is by the end of the year. Next she will be replaced and absolved of her false promises.

  Despite Blair’s hollow rhetoric of a ‘war on terror’ Nato will never allow significant leaders of KLA terror to be tried in The Hague. Nor those leaders who ordered the murder and mutilation of innocent Serb women and children by dropping dumb cluster bombs from a height of three miles onto hospitals, schools and residential areas.

  Does anyone here understand the logic of this one time pacifist and CND campaigner when prior to 9/11 he supported Islamic terror and contributed to it: When post 9/11 this master of portrayed sincerity now vows death and destruction to Islamic terrorists - yet commits no comment let alone any corrective action for the Islamic murder and mayhem in Kosovo and its borders? Indeed having created this bloody mess Blair is now about to withdraw his troops.

  Milosevic may well have a higher motive but true Celtic blood does not flow in your veins if, like Milosevic you were betrayed and facing life imprisonment, you would not want to promote an opponent to those who betrayed you.

  Give me a good reason for making a big fuss about the sardine Seselj when the KLA and Nato sharks are allowed to swim with impunity in their blood filled sea. As far as I am concerned it is a question of priorities: First things first.

  Concerning your comment that mankind has always been selective about its ‘moral’ principles. There are two kinds of world the powers that be may create. That which is “Nasty, brutish and short” based on ‘moral‘ principles changed at will to suit sectional interest: Or a relatively civilised society based on law: Law, and only that law, which is based on the principles of justice. Two pillars of justice are Truth and Impartiality.

  Yes Simon the British electorate has been disenfranchised. The choice is Tweedle Dumb or Tweedle Deee Even worse parliament has lost control of government. We live in the age of the New Labour Dictator and his spin machine.

  While I read a few press reports and heard a few radio reports on the mass marches against the bombing of Serbia I saw not a single video report on any of the four standard TV channels, including BBC1 and BBC2, that I subscribe to.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Sunday September 22, 2002 at 6:53 am
  Peter

  Nice post, I can see your point re "first things first" now, though I'm still in favour of putting all allegations under the microscope regardless of the size of the shark they are attributed too. One of your quote's comes to mind, 2 wrongs don't make a right, just because the spineless buggers at the ICTY won't look into Nato's crimes is no reason why we should not look into allegations against Seselj, admittedly a much smaller fish

  Two other points:

  I don't have Celtic blood in my veins, maybe that colours my views?

  I recall seeing several reports re the mass demonstrations, the only source I use for tv news was and is BBC News 24. This was one of the things that got me more interested in Kosovo and thus the Balkans, I recall at the time thinking " we never had this level of opposition to the Gulf war"
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 3:30 am
  Yes, you speak with authority. Never anything like "I heard" or "I don't know" or "maybe I am wrong". No, you know. Compare this to Mr T, who knows a whole lot but never advances any legal interpretations but only presents the facts. You certainly made a bold statement about the Seselj investigation based on your reading of the Bosnia indictment. And now you speak as if you knew that that is the statement the prosecution will put forward. It is now a dogma.

  You are so confident on it that you still deny your earlier claims about the connection between the presidential election and Milosevic/Seselj cases in the ICTY. You now claim that your interest in Seselj had already started in 1991 and the presidential election should be seen in this light, not in the light of the Milosevic case, as you earlier suggested. And you still don't say that you might be wrong or even uncertain.

  On the other hand, he doesn't say any one of us is wrong. He says: "I'm sorry I don't wholly agree with your views." That is lawyer talk, especially when accompanied with the assurances of "respect". However, he admits that it was his intention to win "me and my pals over" when he says: "I'm not going to try and change your minds anymore its a waste of time but for the record: Some views I think we share..." I don't think his changing our minds was so much about his identity as about our views. Maybe his real identity would make us resist his programme.

  I instantly make the connection with our old friend Hardoz Nails. You even say that you are "made of stronger stuff", so that must be part of your self-image. Mr Nails said his father was a barrister but he wasn't an intellectual himself. Now we hear that "Simon Joseph" is a motor mechanic. Suddenly his spelling has improved since it was suggested that he might be working for the prosecution. One noticeable difference is also that this time he isn't leaving so easily. Last time "Simon Joseph" said he "exits the debate" so easily that even I with my psychic powers was surprised. But that makes his reentrance doubly surprising. This time "Simon" has made up his mind: he will stay. (Besides, "Simon Joseph" doesn't have to be the same writer all the time, does he?) Why? Does he think the exit would be seen as a sign of admission that he is who I think he is? Remember that he now has experienced how his long pause on Thursday was interpreted. And he has become remarkably conciliatory since I suggested that he works for the prosecution, as if he feared that his statements would bring the ICTY into a bad light (while on the other hand using some exaggeratedly foul language about Del Ponte who we really admire and who is suddenly concerned about Milosevic's health). Somehow I think "Simon" will stay on this forum at least until the presidential election is over.

  Hardoz made some interesting points about the freezer trucks. It is fantastic that he floated the idea that 100,000 corpses were transferred with the freezer trucks to Serbia proper. After we convinced him of the absurdity of the notion, the prosecution settled for showing pictures of motor vehicles.

  "Simon", nobody has to take my word for it. There are people who are paid to do these things. And you must admit that if the people, who I take you for, did what I think they did, they are in really deep shit. We can keep on talking, but remember that the prosecution has now made history by making Fred Abrahams's e-mailing to Milosevic appear as evidence in court.

  So according to your view, we should now say: "We don't know much about Seselj (and most of us certainly don't) but we know that he is the president of the SRS". Robert, who broke the news, didn't even know he had been in the Yugoslav government! So we should say (with Robert): "Seselj was never ever before in any way connected - even by the West - with any war crime charges, I do not even think he ever held any position in government." But we should immediately add: "Now wait a minute. I think I saw his name in place 14 in the Bosnia indictment, paragraph 7, where it says:

  The joint criminal enterprise was in existence by 1 August 1991 and continued until at least 31 December 1995. The individuals participating in this joint criminal enterprise included Slobodan MILOSEVIC, Radovan KARADZIC, Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC, General Ratko MLADIC, Borisav JOVIC, Branko KOSTIC, Veljko KADIJEVIC, Blagoje ADZIC, Milan MARTIC, Jovica STANISIC, Franko SIMATOVIC, also known as "Frenki," Radovan STOJICIC, also known as "Badza," Vojislav SESELJ, Zeljko RAZNATOVIC, also known as "Arkan," and other known and unknown participants.

  Paragraph 22 says (and note this well):

  Vojislav SESELJ, as President of the Serbian Radical Party (SRS) from at least February 1991 throughout the time relevant to this indictment recruited or otherwise provided substantial assistance or support to Serb paramilitary units, commonly known as "Seseljevci" or "Seselj’s men," who perpetrated crimes as specified in this indictment. In addition, he openly espoused and encouraged the creation of a "Greater Serbia" by violence and other unlawful means, and actively participated in war propaganda and spreading inter-ethnic hatred.

  Mr B doesn't refer to this paragraph in his posting but he still manages to paraphrase the above paragraph 22! He says:

  Seselj came to my attention more or less from day 1, mainly in connection to his call for a greater Serbia and his links to paramilitary groups, so when he pops up as a presidential candidate with Milosevics support I think '?' .

  Let me ask you: Day 1 of what? Day 1 of the release of the Bosnia indictment? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds as if Mr B had managed to paraphrase the words in the indictment at the time that Seselj came on the political scene 10 years before the indictment.

  You may have no Celtic blood in your veins, but nobody should question your Britishness. When you say that mankind has always regarded morals as disposable, I agree with you, if you mean by "mankind" the British government. If you say that the British government has always regarded morals as disposable. And the only reason you should bring that up is because you think this government regards morals as disposable and is quite right in doing so. But if that is so, what the hell does the British government need this tribunal for? Does it want to play on the fact that the general populace is so placid and lazy as to believe in morals? It seems that the only reason to make this kind of statement in a discussion on ICTY is because you are a lawyer, or at least your father was a barrister, and you think that a fair trial is an illusion anyway. This is in stark contrast to the Dutch government, which resigned over the NIOD report (I am sure you know what that is), and to my mind, the Dutch government is now the best hope of the placid and lazy people like us. It is an absolute disgrace that not only are the chief of the prosecution team and the presiding judge of the same nationality, but also that this nationality should be British! One has to wonder what the proportion of the British is in the entire OTP staff (if that should one day prove a useful bit of information).

  Mr B. I would like to know one thing. Who are the "anti-Serb boneheads" that you don't want to be taken for, if you deny that such people even exist?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 7:04 am
  Following URL is probably of interest to members of this list:
  
  http://www.wpunj.edu/newpol/issue33/walls33.htm
  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 7:21 am
  The problem with criticising the ICTY, and the so called West, is that it blurrs the issue, at least what the serbia is concerned. Yes, the tribunal might be biased, and the goverments in the west might be hypocritical far too often - but is there any doubt that Milosevic - not to speak of Kradzic and Mladic - is responsible for serious crimes against humanity? And that he did it for us, the serbs, and often with our silent approval? And I see no real alternative to taking up these issues then the ICTY (regretfully, i might add, for the best thing would be to try him in YU; can we imagine that?)One should bear in mind that the opinion in Serbia is still far too chauvinistic and revisionist, it denies to confront the past, it sometimes denies any wrong-doings in the YU-wars, although the evidence of this is plenty.( I suggest a look into Vreme web-site, in order to catch up with a now long ongoing debate on "serbia confronting its past".) The problem that the participnats of this discussion should be aware of, is that their arguments, their eloquent pinpointing of legal mistakes and political bias on the side of ICTY are being misused by many to conclude that serbs did nothing wrong - a dangerous conclusion ! This i say notwithstanding what others did: on the contrary, sweeping in front of one´s own doorsteps, ie in serbia, will make pointing at others even more effective. And one particular thing: discussing the truthfullness of the witness saying that he saw, with his own eyes, a baby brutally killed, is not only beyound the range of experience and knowledge of the participants of this discussion (how on earth can you tell whether he is lying or not?), it`s also morally disgusting!
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 9:07 am
  OK, that's it, I can't take it anymore, I'm out of this discussion, it's too much for my nerves. Congratulations, Nebojsa, you have prooven to me that the CNN PR machine can count on Serbs as well as any other nation's ignorant assholes in the world to support it's goals. There will never be a way for people like you to grasp the whole picture, you will always get stuck on details especially provided for weak minded as you are to get stuck upon. Yes, the truth is too hard to bare, it's much easier to find a scapegoat. The one already on trial is ideal, since you can have your feeling that "justice" is being done that way. It's much harder to bare the fact that true criminals are laughing at you and raping your country and your people, and will never, ever face the punishment, at least not in this life. Your demagogy is so weak, so tasteless that I don't even find a strength to answer to it, but I'll try not because you can be convinced, but just to take this anger out of me. You claim that Serbs are too chauvinistic and revisionist that they deny that there were crimes commited by Serbs? WHERE THE FUCK, HOW THE FUCK YOU GOT THAT INFORMATION!? FROM CNN??? FROM NGO's??? I don't know ANY Serb, I've not heard ANYONE who would state such a thing, it's hard for me to imagine that such a moron would exist in my environment.

  "The problem that the participnats of this discussion should be aware of, is that their arguments, their eloquent pinpointing of legal mistakes and political bias on the side of ICTY are being misused by many to conclude that serbs did nothing wrong - a dangerous conclusion !"

  Dangerous to whom? What will happen if Serbs indeed conclude that the evil that was made by their forces comes out to be much less than CNN and ICTY want you to believe, that it didn't resemble anything remotely justifying the NATO involvement, and subsequent Serb suffering and losses? Serbs will get mad? Big deal. You know perfectly well that we don't pose a threat to anyone, our military in this shape would find it a hard task defending itself from Albania, were they to attack us or us to attack them. But as I said, I've lost an appetite to discuss any further. You're not alone, Nebojsa, the number of Serbs who give up and believe the most convenient lie is alarmingly increasing. We cannot live with a hatred towards the whole world so we hate ourselves. Again, I am referring to a metaphor of a molested child - it will also most likely come to conclusion that it is all it's fault, that it is a bad child and is being punished for that by superintelligent and "we know what's good for you" sadistic parents.

  Bye to all and thanks, you gave me a piece of mind, I know that there are some decent people out there who feel my pain and my thirst for justice.
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 10:44 am
  Wow! Now, Bogdan, this is really too much; far too many big words, and shaky emotions; anyway, why are you "leaving" the discussion? Because of me? As far as i can detect, i am in a clear minority-position here, plenty of decent people around you on this site, or what? I am very much concerned about my country - those are my sole motives and driving force. As for CNN brainwashing me: how very wrong you are, and to prove this, I`ll tell you that i am a book publisher who last year brought out a book in Norway which was highly critical of CNN and ICTY (may be you`ve heard of it, the english version goes under "Degraded capability")and, accordingly, "slaughtered" in the main-stream press here in Norway. As for serbs who might subscribe to my point of view, that is, the view that serbs need confronting their past in spite of what is being done against them - I am proud to say, are such names as Srdjan Popovic, Petar Lukovic, Lazar Stojanovic, and many,many others. Not exactly morons, or what do you say? I guess you didn`t really mean to call me an asshole, even if you found my contribution to this discussion far too much?
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 11:04 am
  Bogdan, From Jari's post, "There are people who are paid to do these things." Who can say that Nebojsa Matic is not one of them.
  
  D. S.
  US

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 11:27 am
  Chauvinistic Serbs?? The same words and well tested expressions used by the various Karic,Biserko with the ultimate goal to deprive the Serbs of the last thing they have: the pride.
  
  Serjoe b
  Italy

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 11:43 am
  Simon Your answer to Serbian history failed. That's why I asked you these question about Krajina, Bosnia "The State of Slovenians Croats and Serbs" and "Greater Serbia".

  Walter Trkla gave you an excellent answer.

  "The State of Slovenians Croats and Serbs" you mixed with "The Kingdam of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians" which was formed on December the first 1918 (a month later).

  You will find in Slovenian history that "The State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs" was in fact the argument for theirs (Slovenian) selfdetermination, which lead to their State in 1991. - Why Serbs in Krajina and Bosnia did not get the same rights as Slovenians?

  Simon from these two Slovenian history pages(http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/
  slovenia/slovaf1.htm)(http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/
  slovenia/slov-national-history.htm) you will notice that their soverign state history started with the creation of that state. Then you can notice that Slovenians got the whole state and it was expanded even in 1947. Croatia got the whole Krajina - even though Krajina existed during Austro-hungary as province with more privilegies than any other non Austrian province.

  Croatia gained after WW II Adriatic coast, Islands, cities Rijeku and Istria. Ethnic's Serbs and Croats converted to islam were awarded State in Bosnia in 1992, but remeber "The State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs" included all as name says: Slovenians Croats and Serbs and the teritorry of Slovenia, Croatia Krajina and Bosnia.

  You realize that Serbs are the only ones who were ethnically cleansed from Croatia and Krajina.

  Once more: Before existance of "The Kingdam of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians" was formed; Serbs had soverign state in Serbia and in "The state of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs".

  Even Serbian history (in Belgrade) neglect that state that lasted abuot a month. -see their explanation at: http://www.mediaclub.cg.yu/eng/news/
  archive/2002/mart/15serbia.htm

  The point is: If the Serbs from Bosnia and Krajina never joined Serbian Kingdam they would have their soverign state in "The State of Slovenians Croats and Serbs"

  Now Simon do you notice what is "Graeter Serbia" When you compare what is today with what was in 1918 you will notice that Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania and Bosnia expanded mostly on Serbian land, and Serbian victories in First and Second World War.

  Today we see in Hague all Serbian political represenatives from Serbia, Bosnia and Krajina - but as I can see only they(as Serbian representatives and people that they reperesented lost their states.

  
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 12:04 pm
  "There are people being paid to do these things"? What things? You sound like a bad american movie. Relax a bit, all i want is to discuss.
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 12:17 pm
  

  Mean while back at the ranch: click HERE and see how Serbia is treated . . .
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) (HEGEMONISTIC)

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 9:03 pm
  Whoopee !!! Fresh blood. Nebojsa, will you please give me your theories on why Islamic millitants would be involved in the KLA and Bosnia. Why did the CIA finance wars in the Balkans? Where is Jamie Shea now to explain his lies that kept the bombing going?
  
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  BC Canada

• Monday September 23, 2002 at 11:51 pm
  To Nebojsa and Bogdan: Here is the perfect example of ongoing dissemination of Serbian corpus, so well represented in media portraits of Mr. Kostunica and Mr. Djindjic in the light of incoming elections. Think of what you have stated on this post and you will find out that there are more then one view that you find in common. Diversity is our greatest strength. Do not turn it into disgrace. Do not represent our nation in that light. Need I to remind you that posting here have a broader meaning. Bogdan, I can understand your anger, for I too find most of Nebojsa post outrageous, but let the man speak and be judged by participants of this forum in the light of his own words. And please do not stop posting because Serbia needs voices like yours. Nebojsa, I know that it is hard to make a carrier in publishing when you are not a mainstream, but do not take it at the expense of your own people. I agree with you that Serbian forces committed war crimes, but ALL sides committed them and stating that they were committed in OUR name proves Bogdan point that CNN is a major source of information for you. I simply don’t buy it and nor should you, cause weather you see it or not that is a driving point of ICTY and western media campaign against Serbs. COLLECTIVE GUILT OF SERBIAN NATION VERSUS INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILLITY. I for one do not buy it. It is very hard for everyone who did not live in Serbia under Milosevic to understand why so many Serbs think that he should be tried. I agree with you and so are Bogdan (read the archive), but his alleged crimes (which yet have to be proven) falls under category of Internal Affairs of Independent State; nowhere under jurisdiction of court with prefix International in its name. And please do not EVER mention the name of Srdja Popovic (who cried for bombing of his native city Belgrade in western press as early as 1992). I agree with you that he is not a moron, for morons might find themselves offended. SAMO SLOGA SRBIJU SPASAVA ONLY UNITY SAVES THE SERBS.
  
  Miroslav Radulovic
  NYC
  US of A

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 12:30 am
  Nebojisa please remember Voltaire when you feel offended by some idiot on this page. I am sure that some consider me an idiot but that is OK. I sometimes feel like an idiot sitting at my computer but lies are being told about Serbs world wide and people are making money with those lies. We need to expose them.The worst thing is when one lies to oneself like Nebojisa. VOLTAIRE SAID “I MAY DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAY BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT” or some such thing like that.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 3:13 am
  I think we now have two people missing: Hardoz Nails and Simon Joseph. That's a pity, because I hadn't finished yet. If Hardoz is a bit like Simon, he must be "lurking around various Balkan and ICTY related newsgroups and discussion boards". If his name has been taken in vain, he should be able to speak for himself. So where is Hardoz? Don't be shy! You see, Mr B, if you refute my points, you now need two characters, and that may tax your energy too much after a hard day at the garage. Or is it getting too childish even by the standards of my "childish gibes"?

  Don't you know Hardoz? Sure you do, if you have been lurking around these forums since July 23. And I know you have, because you mentioned the trial of Gotovina, which was mentioned in this discussion the first time on April 23. Or is that another one of your lucky guesses? On the other hand, you didn't seem to recognize "Name Withheld", who appeared about those times.

  Hint: this is a discussion on the Milosevic trial, so any insistent efforts to turn the attention to Seselj or even Gotovina will bet greeted with suspicion. So maybe you could give us your opinion on how Milosevic is doing compared to the prosecution.

  And who is Mr B? He said he asks "a few question about Seselj and suddenly I'm Baalzebub's evil older brother". That is quite a coincidence. On August 1, I wrote: "So I think the criticism concerning May's and Nice's English background may well be on point." And at the end of that paragraph I quoted William Golding's "The Lord of the Flies".

  The joke is that "Baalzebub" means "the Lord of the Flies". So maybe Mr B means that he is either Nice's or May's evil older brother. Of these two, Nice is a prosecutor. And it is interesting that, just last Friday, I mentioned Mr Nice's crocodile tears over the Bosnian rape victims.

  On the other hand, if you really are a motor mechanic, you should be flattered when you are taken for the chief of the prosecution team. Do you feel flattered, Mr B? I don't think that would describe your reaction, when you make jokes about my crystal ball (nobody should make jokes about my crystal ball).

  It took him one day to refute my claim that "He is a pro". That may not be too bad, but let's see one of his postings. It reads: "Hague to indict Kosovo Albanian this year | 21:11 | Beta ." Let me talk as one hobbyist to another. Would you share me your secret and tell me where you get that "21:11". It was obviously followed by another message a minute later: "Hague drops Bosnian Croat genocide charges against Milosevic | 21:12 | SRNA ." You have some sophisticated news sources for a self-taught motor mechanic.

  And let me tell you that your sarcasm, studied or not, was badly misplaced. It doesn't bring a smile on our faces when we hear that a Kosovo Albanian will be indicted. If you were one of us, you would say that now they try to do the very minimum to keep up the appearances of justice. The same comment applies to the dropping of some of the Bosnia charges. You see, by being sarcastic about the things the prosecution would be sarcastic about (and we can see through that) you just give yourself away, and you become a target of our sarcasm.

  The same could be said of your comment: "If the general populace were that placid and lazy, you and yours would have won your battle as 'thinkers' a long time ago." Most of us never believed that we would win our battle. At least, no-one ever said that we would win it in the short run, let alone "a long time ago". I expressly stated that if these kinds of forums are going to have any effect, it is going to happen in the long run. And luckily, the trial seems to take longer than expected, no matter what changes are made in "an attempt to bring the trial to an earlier conclusion", which we were supposed to love.

  On the other hand, if you were a prosecutor, wouldn't you be crazy not to lurk around the discussions on the Internet? At a certain stage you might not be able to resist the temptation to participate. Especially when you can't solve the "case". And why make such a moronic lie about the motor mechanic, if you were not a prosecutor?

  "Simon Joseph" supports justice for all. Why does he do that if he says that mankind has always regarded morals as disposable, and seems to support this claim too? He says that Serbs are treated badly, but that is tough, because the Albanians are now treated as pimps. Is this latter view now an excuse to continue the anti-Serb trials? Or could it be that the obvious anti-Serb bias of the tribunal only brings about a reaction against the Albanians? Like in "Casablanca", when someone says "round up the usual suspects", we know that those guilty will never be caught.

  But it seems that "Simon Joseph" supports the present British government, just like Hardoz Nails supported the New Labour. In fact, Mr B might be quite close to it. Why else such a tirade: "Support for a POV that differs from your own ... could point to support, that is thought out, and based on the personal benefits gained through your nations acheivement of its goals." And what really brings this close to Blair is the next sentence: "Mankind has always treated morals as disposable."

  But is it possible for a prosecutor to make the latter statement? That is not all. I think showing such "support" to "your nation's achievement of its goals" is bad enough in such a supposedly impartial function. And how about oiling, so important for a motor mechanic? What's that talk about "personal benefits"? No wonder Mr B wants to give some respectability to what he is doing by starting to moralize about the prejudices against the Albanians (not so much about the drug trafficking and prostitution).

  Mr B seems to have admitted all the minor criticism that have been levelled against him. He has improved his spelling after I pointed out that his English is deliberately bad. After I suggested that he has that "don't-you-know-who-I-am" tone in his voice, he proceeded to addressing us on the first-name basis. I rather preferred being addressed as Mr Nousiainen, just to see a foreigner spell my surname correctly every time. Not bad for someone who left school at 16. And jugding by the choice of your pseudonym it seems that you have done your homework on me too, haven't you? At least you never suggested I was using a pseudonym.

  So what does it matter who "Simon Joseph" is? That depends on how seriously you take the views that he says he shares with us. These are 1) NATO/US/UK and Germany were the cause of the Balkan wars. 2) ICTY is not a court its a holding cage for scapegoats and more often than not those scapegoats are Serbs.

  This time Mr B seems to keep floating the idea of a truth commission. I suppose he means it for Seselj. It would be more appropriate to suggest that the ICTY were abolished and a truth commission were established to look into its activities. But we know that this won't happen until Blair resigns, and that is something that will be unlikely to happen. So I guess the only way to proceed is to start a criminal investigation of the ICTY. By the way, that is what I meant when I said that there are people who are paid to do these things (but as the master of recap, D.S., pointed out, the problem is the word paid: who can you trust?).
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 4:53 am
  Dear com-debattants: I have sympathy for Bogdans emotions (yesterdays posting) because i too have felt the frustration, and still feel it; and i share his concern with what he called "the raping of (our own) country". I recognised myself in his lamentations from some time ago that his concerns far too often go at the expense of his professional and other duties, just as mine do. (In the same vein: i too feel like an idiot sometimes sitting at my computer, just like Walter). So we do have things in common ... and i agree that diversity is a strength. I don`t want to preach, of course, also because i live abroad. But i am concerned that the critique of ICTY and the internatioanl community and the Milosevic trial CAN blurr the very simple fact that Milosevic and Karadzic and Mladic and many others should be tried as war criminals. And that many of our compats applaud(ed) them, (remember applauding the tanks on the streets of belgrade? T-shirts with Karadzic slogans all over FRYU?). And that we (the serbs), first and foremost should deal with that fact in a righteous and calm and humanistic and legal manner. And that confronting one-selves might provoke some GOOD sides in us, like establishing a respectable corpus of (political) thought on subjects such as crime, jurisdiction, war-morals, etc, etc. And that in doing so we will be in a BETTER position to criticise and deal with "others".And that what "albanian" or "croats" did or are doing to serbs does not exempt the criminals among us from responsibility. And the fact that if the serbian goverment had the guts, the know-how and the morals to put some of the alleged war criminals on trial (i say put on trial, not sentence, mind you ...)then one MIGHT have been able to tell ICTY to buzz off. Also: dissecting the witness-accounts is a legitimate court practice, shure, but i pledge that one shows some decency.Some of it MUST be thrue. I was initially disgusted by the treatment that "baby-kiling" got on this site. Collective guilt? Of course not, but maybe collective responsibility? I don`t know. And one more point i want to make: I think there is a distinction between discussing the ICTY, the permanent war tribunal and the western arrogance AND the serbian self-confronting, and consequently, good neighbourship with the surrounding people. It really doesn`t help the serbs to establish the fact that americans are arrogant ad limitum, if we are surrounded by people who think that slaughtering people is a question of semantics. And: nobody needs patronising, including me, Miroslav. Also: I don`t watch CNN. Walter: there is no need to bring Voltaire so early, perhaps you`ll regret it? Pertti: That is another issue, related, yes, but i`d still say another issue.
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 6:45 am
  

  "The necessity of saying something, the embarrassment produced by the consciousness of having nothing to say, and the desire to exhibit ability, are three things sufficient to render even a great man ridiculous"

  Voltaire
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) & (DECLINING)

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 7:05 am
  Well, it's not exactly Nebojsa's post that got me so angry. It's the amount of time and energy spent here by me that seems to be in vain. It's not my goal to discuss the issues with those already seeing my point of view, although I'm grateful to them and appreciate and enjoy their educated comments. It's my illusion that we could actually convey our messages to the masses, to those who are being suspicious of the official version of truth, but don't have deductive powers or enough information or motivation to figure it out and to take a stance on these issues. Then, after several months of posting appears a Serb on this site and annulates everything written so far, taking us right back to the beginning. He also makes some ridicullous claims that we should be ashamed of our doing, that we are igniting further Balkan wars by our immoral questioning of Serb guilt. We're somehow blurring the picture, according to him, we produce smoke screen for Serb devils who will then avoid the mighty hand of justice and make more wars. He's willing to cast a first stone at his own people, to set an example that Croats and Muslims and NATO will follow in ave. He will be quite surprised when not only his example is not followed, but he didn't even earn the respect of these nations. No-one should doubt that Mladic is a war criminal, he says. Why then there are courts neccessary in your opinion? To torture a man by giving him a hope that he can prove he's innocent? I don't know about his alleged crimes, but I know that my cousins who fought in Bosnia for the duration of whole war have every respect for this man and regard him as a hero. There would be much more Serbian villages slaughtered if there wasn't for him.

  Simon, about your little fish game and Seselj, here, I'll try to convey to you how I feel about it...

  Imagine an alternative course in history. Hitler won a WW2. Germany set up an international court for war criminals in Hague. The international community led by Germany, Italy and other axis powers puts the pressure on GB to deliver the war criminal Winston Churchil and his criminal gang, for his crimes of firebombing the German cities, and especially igniting Dresden. So, would you then consider it a justice that a herring Churchil is sent to Hague while big fat shark Hitler amuses himself in his Jew-free enlarged Germany discussing with his SS officers who of the Brittish politicians they will have indicted next. Would you feel like a nation of heavenly angels, taking the upper moral grounds cleaning up your courtyard, or would you feel like prostituting yourselves, your pride and your country to the morally inferior Germans giving them right to judge you.

  And look how the headlines in Western press tell us to feel. When Milosevic was handed over the papers were sure to put it in a form "Serbs delivered Milosevic for 200 million dollars". Nobody mentioned altruism as a reason for Serbs to do it. Demonization goes on, now we're not barbarians anymore, we're prostitutes. When the so-called evidence about freezer trucks was uncovered by our police, Carla del Ponte was quick to announce that the recent evidence uncovered by Serbs will not be taken into consideration, although now it's their 'strongest' card according to some. The point was not to give any credit to the Serbs. If you must credit them for something, say they did it for the money, or say they did it too late, that they have not honestly did it but because of pressure applied.

  OK, it seems I'm stuck here after all... well, I made a promise to myself not to visit the site until I finish what work I have.
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 8:53 am
  Gogol: Touché, i might say. And Bogdan: it seems you have problem with big words: i can´t see how is it that i "annulate" the contributions on this posting; not only do i agree with many here on criticising the ICTY and the ongoing trial; my dissent with some of the content here is also, i humbly think, a tribute to the discussion. As for the educating the masses: i don`t know about you, but i put my money (a lot of it) and my face where my mouth is by publishing a controversial book (and by giving it away to many people, some of them quite foes to the enterprise). But the issue here is not me ... Your interpretation of what I`ve posted here is quite simplistic, i dare say. As for Mladic: OK, i wasn`t there, and besides, he too should of course have the benefit of doubt (which i awarded him, at least grammatically by putting a question mark at the end of the sentence), but let me " rephrase" your cousins` respect for the man and the opinion that he saved many serb villagers from being slaughtered: could it be that he at times actually contributed to the opposite ?
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 10:21 am
  Please tell me MR. NEBOJISA MATIC why I will regret quoting Voltaire? I have said nothing on this post to be ashamed of, nor have I said anything here that I don’t believe. You can find me, however, just go to Google and put my name in but after reading his post today I am sure Nebojisa is fiction just like his posts. How do I know? Nebojisa lives in Norway. His posts are full of spelling errors such as simple words like “true” which he spells “THRUE” and yet he uses such words as “lamentations” and phrases such as “in the same vein” words like “diversity” “corpus” "semantics” “patronizing”. I have translated for Muslims, Croats and Serbs on hundreds of occasions, I might say for free, documents, court appearances as witnesses, and have spoken to many from that part of the world and I would bet my life that most of them would not know the meaning of these words even though they have attended classes and most speak better English than Nebojisa. Nebojisa, you need to work on your broken English for it marks you as a man or a woman different from us, dishonest, and hiding behind a Serb pseudonym.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 10:42 am
  Mr Walter: Why you will regret quoting Voltaire? Well, you`ve just proven my point: not a very Voltarian posting, is it? Whatever happened to "defending my rights to disagree" or the like? And stop mis-spelling my name, Mr Tidy Speller.
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 12:30 pm
  Walter, as a Serb living in UK for the last twenty years, I do understand how Nebojsa could miss spell true, but be proficient with some other 'difficult' words. For example I also stumble with true, but never misspell the 'trough' or 'though'. I am fine with consequently or notwithstanding, but have a problem with diary/dairy. I know my 'their' as against 'there' and when to use 'me' and 'I'. but really have difficulty spelling uncle and the joint above the foot that sounds like uncle (which I can't remember how to spell at the moment). So, as a Serb, I do not think that Nebojsa is an impostor. As regard to Simon - I think he most definitely is. But I agree with Bogdan, now is the time for us Serbs to unite and try to dispel this terrible, terrible demonization that Serbs are subjected to almost daily and routinely. I live in UK and the reference to 'killing fields of Kosovo', 'concentration camps' ‘ethic cleansing’ etc, etc, are a norm for any journalist. Serbs are examined through the looking glass and any possible connection to be made with Nazi, right wing extremists, communists, etc, is made. We are a Baba Roga, a ‘rogue’ state.
  
  Mira Mira
  UK

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 9:50 pm
  To Nebojsa Matic: Related? This is the most significant part of the Milosevic trial. In a previous posting I said, Slobo would not accept a not guilty, go home and play with your grandchildren, verdict untill he has a chance to expose in court, the true reasons for the Balkan wars. For you to ask a nation to accept responsibility for others missdeeds is disgusting.
  
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  BC Canada

• Tuesday September 24, 2002 at 10:17 pm
  Nebojsa I regret misspelling your name. I left Yugoslavia when I was ten from a village in Herzegovina so my Serbo-Croat is not as good as yours. You know you can take the boy out of the village but not the village out of the boy. Your assumption that I don’t believe that you don’t have a right to dissent is ridiculous. Where have I said that? What I object to sir is that you like many others listen to repeated lies so often that you start to believe them as the truth. The reason I suspect that you are not who you claim to be is that you live in Norway and yet you use some words that only someone with a higher knowledge of the English Language would use. The broken English elsewhere in your post does not conform to what I have experienced as a translator.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 2:11 am
  Nebojsa, I might have a problem with using big words, because my posts look a little too melodramatic sometimes. But I've been very careful so far not to hurt people's feelings. I am sorry I lost my temper in your case.

  If I may once again, this time no bad feelings involved analyze your posts, and explain my conclusion that you somehow subvert our work so far on this site. The main point that you've made is that yes, ICTY is corrupt and politically biased, but it's not a big deal, it's better to have such court judging our criminals than none at all. This is where I think you're wrong. I think that it's better not to have a trial than to have a mockery of justice. Your reasons for having a war crimes court are that we should confront our past in order to make a reconcilliation possible, and also to have a catharsis as a nation and assume a better position in pinpointing the wrongdoings of the enemy. And I'm telling you that it already happened. For 13 years of living in ghetto, being accused of all world's crimes we were doomed to develop a hard feeling of guilt. We've all served our sentences for the crimes not yet proven, how else would you call past 13 years? What more collective punishment do you need for our collective responsibility? We've paid for much less crimes much more than any nation in war ever before. The future of our country was constantly tied to the cooperation with Hague, so how we could forget for a single day that we're considered criminals? Please believe me when I say that all Serbs are not only aware that there were crimes commited by their side, but they also think they were much bigger, that's the main reason they are afraid to look into them. Nobody, not Milosevic or any other politician claimed otherwise. So why do you keep inventing the hot water? While you keep assuming the better position to point a finger, the world's attention is already turning around to the next interesting subject, they've had enough of us, they've already made their conclusions, there are already entries in Encyclopedia Britannica, it's history already, this trial is our last chance to actually try reassure them otherwise. The point that I am making here together with others is that they've gone too far. The whole war crimes and human rights thing was blown totally out of proportions, it was used to throw a nation on it's knees, to enslave it, to snatch away it's territory, to achieve political goals of the West. All I am claiming is that Milosevic was not a Hitler, and Serbia was not a Nazi country. How can you hope to appease liers claiming exactly that, by saying to them they're partially right? As for Mladic, like I said, I don't know of his involvement in any crime except Srebrenica. My cousins have never, ever got any order from their command to execute any civilians. Their respect for Mladic is based on his abilities like a military strategist and personally a brave man. He was good for morale of the army, people liked him, they felt safe around him. He brough many victories to Serbian army. That was I think quite enough for him to be demonized and feared by the other side. I'm not sure in which way do you think he contributed to the slaughtering of Serb villages?
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 3:21 am
  Now that we have had the chance to look at the person behind the persona or at least to imagine what it would be like to talk to a person who pulls the strings in this trial, funny feelings come to surface. It is even irrelevant if my speculations were at least partly correct or not. You may rant about subjecting the prosecution team to a criminal investigation, but if you really have the power to make that kind of decision, it will be extremely hard. Let us not underestimate the pressures these people have.

  As the Mayor of New York (Al Pacino) said in the otherwise mediocre film City Hall, over time the line between good and evil becomes blurred. And doesn't it ever! If you had the power to decide whether to subject Tony Blair to the same kind of treatment as Milosevic, it would be really hard to say: do it!

  But if the oath that the judges take (in this country at least) is of any guidance, it is just as wrong to favour your friends as it is to fear your enemies. Nothing must sway your decision. And if some people take their enemies to court, they should accept the possibility that they are taken to court themselves. I think this is the corner stone of every legal system. So we can flash big words like "indict Nato", "sentence Blair" etc., but are you really willing to take the decision? It has been said that the trials of the Serbs shouldn't be halted just because the Westerners are not accused. It is assumed that it is too hard to get the Western leaders indicted. But what is so hard about it, if not the deep-seated respect that you still have for these people? You may talk about conspiracies at ICTY, but it still comes down to human frailty.

  But still, the Western leaders themselves should have shown the same respect to the Yugoslav leadership, even if they were enemies, instead of subjecting to the kind of treatement they did. So they set the standard themselves. And if it comes to deciding whether to charge the puppet judges and prosectors at ICTY (which is now the issue), I think that is just something that has to be done.

  The young man (John Cusack) said to the Mayor of New York in that same film that he should resign. I now cast myself in the role of that young man. I would like to say to my elders: I know your predicament, but you know as well as I do, and everybody else, that this can't go on. You can't avoid some humiliation but at least you can minimize it. Resign. (And this was what the young man said to one judge too.)

  The idea of a truth commission has been floated. Nebojsa said that the Serb leadership should be charged for war crimes regardless. My first thought is: that is just rounding up the "usual suspects". If you make such a big deal of what the Serbs did, you know something fishy is going on.

  Nobody has contested the claim that the Serbs have convicted other Serbs of war crimes. I don't know what the latest figure is. That leads us to two conclusions: First, Milosevic can't be held responsible on the basis of Art. 7(3). It doesn't matter if the convictions were a trap or not. The main thing is that they took place. Second, if the prosecution or the tribunal would recognize the validity of these convictions at all, they should let the politicians be tried in Serbia. This hasn't been discussed (or in fact Prosper suggested it but it wasn't discussed), so we can be sure that the 200 or so convictions in Serbia won't be regarded in Milosevic's favour, and the justice of this trial collapses.

  I know that many people know that this trial (and this organ) is biased, but it is allowed to go on only because no-one has anything better in mind. I think Nebojsa's comments didn't bring us back to square one. He put his finger on the real problem: does anyone have any better suggestions? And this can also be read between the lines in "Simon's" postings, too.

  The only thing I would like to point out in Nebojsa's posting was that he said that this trial may be biased. That choice of words may have been dictated by grammar, but I would like us all to agree on one thing: this trial is biased. The question is what consequences we attribute to the fact. To me it seems that the trial should be stopped. How that will be done is a different matter. I think Srdja Trifkovic said it admirably in his article. The trial is not meant to balance the interests of the prosecution and the defendant. The only balancing act should be between the guilt and the innocence of the accused. So don't let even-handedness strike you at the wrong place. You can't make compromises when determining a person's guilt is at stake.

  On the other hand, if Pertti is right and Milosevic is really going to expose all the lies, he may not go home at all. I don't know if that is the best thing to anyone. It is not such a shame to win a trial, you know (let alone the trial of the century), and if Milosevic really thinks of the best of his people, he should be willing to accept that "offer". Remember, there is no plea bargaining here. His name would be cleansed, and so would the better part of that of his people.

  Actually I don't know what kind of offers and deals have been made, but I think - no, I fear - that Pertti is right. There is still too much of that Kosovo legend.

  It may also be that the Serbs see these things in a more balanced way, but the question is whose way of seeing things Milosevic chooses. Does he really see things the Serb way?

  The idea of the truth commissions were floated. Which truth? Is the suggestion now that Seselj should be subjected to an examination by a truth commission? As I said, that is not enough. Too much of that "round up the usual suspects" here. We don't have to philosophize about what is the truth, but I think that in the legal sense, the truth is not only "nothing but the truth" but also "whole truth". And I think that Milosevic (the way Pertti reads him) is right here at least.

  We want the truth, and I think that Milosevic least of all will give up until any truth commission that may be established looks into the wrongdoings of all the parties. But how many truth commission are there now investigating the Kosovo bombing, for instance?

  I am not saying that a truth commission is such a bad idea in itself. There have been some positive signs in the form of the 1997 Republican Party Committee's report on the Bosnian war and the Dutch NIOD report on Srebrenica. But the problems are just as obvious. We heard from Mr T that the NIOD report didn't satisfy everybody, so there is now a parliamentary inquiry. The RPC report can similarly be dismissed as politicking.

  So any truth commission will be stuff for another truth commission. Even the ICTY judgment have been written in a way that reminds of a truth commission report: heavy on the "facts" and light on legal reasonings. And it is my suggestion that the ICTY judgments should be submitted to an evaluation by a truth commission.

  The process will never end. Maybe new conflicts will arise. And Peter Taylor has been quite right about pointing out one major problem: Blair. It may now be beside the point to discuss whether he was more guilty than Clinton. The fact is that he is now the one that represents the whole Clinton-Blair legacy. To me it seems plausible that Blair has May and Nice in his pocket, and if he does, there will be no truth commission as long as he is in power. And maybe he knows that, and thinks of ever new causes in the world to fight for.

  Maybe his new zeal for the war against Iraq is partly motivated by this nervousness. This shows what was wrong with the Kosovo war. I can understand that force, or even cruelty, may be needed sometimes. However, even Machiavelli distinguished two sorts of cruelty: good and bad. The good cruelty is the one which is directed at one specific aim. The people will complain but in the end they will admit that the end was good. Then there is the bad kind, the kind Blair is now guilty of. The bad cruelty is only meant to cover one's tracks. Cruelty begets ever more cruelty. As soon as the people start asking what the previous cruel spell was good for, a new spell begins.

  This is a very dangerous direction, and it seems to be the direction ICTY is going as well. Blair's fingerprints are all over the place. It has been suggested that Blair promoted the Kosovo war to keep the Muslim population happy. But just a minute. I don't dany that, but should the war be ever used to make "somebody happy"? Let me say it once again: I think the invasion of Iraq is justifiable, but Blair really manages to "contaminate" it. Is he this time on the board to make the Americans happy? And as cynics we must ask: Do the Americans have something that makes Blair happy? Could it be the ICTY and the putting off of any "truth commission"?

  And then there is the question that will not go away. Who should be in the truth commission? We know that the South Africans made up the South African truth commission. Besides, it was a South African idea. They are the fathers of the concept of a truth commission!

  But in Yugoslavia, the idea comes mainly from outside. I don't know if that would work. In order to be a truth commission, its findings have to be official. That means the people have to be paid. That is not a problem in itself. The problem is that money leads to corruption too often. So we could make the truth commission consists of nations that are the least corrupt according to the statistics. These are the Danes, the Finns and the Canadians.

  Ah, but the rumour has it that Israel turned down the UN fact-finding mission because one Finn was in it. You know who I am talking about: Helena Ranta, who headed the Racak investigation. And as Andre pointed out, the then foreign minister, now President Tarja Halonen, was involved in delaying the publication of the Racak report.

  The Danes and the Canadians are Nato members. But on the other hand, as the RPC report shows, miracles can happen even in Nato countries.

  So you see. A truth commission wouldn't work, because the truth is too large. I still support the idea that the police should investigate the activities of the ICTY. If we were any nearer to any truth commission, instead of idle talk, at least Milosevic should be released right now. What is the reason to keep him in detention? Can you remember?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 3:38 am
  On another front:

  "US President George Bush may declare Yugoslavia's non-discriminatory status in trade with the United States after he confirms to Congress that Yugoslavia fully cooperates with the Hague-based war crimes tribunal and that, in keeping with the Dayton agreement, it has severed all financial, political, military and other assistance aimed at maintaining separate institutions in the Republika Srpska."

  I don't know what the full cooperation with ICTY means. Handing over Karadzic and Mladic? But it seems Bush is now using his authority to speed up things. I think this is very good. No more rogue state!
  
  J N
  Finland

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 5:32 am
  Walter: "apologies" accepted, of course. I hope you also read Miras posting? Bogdan: Good, i am pleased that you regained your temper, and - i hope - better moods. We should try not to take all this personally - it will cost us nerves, don`t you think? I do see your point, and i often feel ashamed when i "add" the war crimes burden onto already loaded shoulders; but than again, as a serb, i have more right (than, say, main-stream western opinion) - and a sense of obligation to do so. And one important thing: my posting was of course tailored to this discussion - i would have said different things, in different manner, elsewhere,not because i am hypocritical, but because not everybody is so "heavily" informed as you Bogdan, and many others here.I felt that being a "devil`s advocate" might serve this discussion, which otherwise tends to be quite uniform in criticising ICTY. As for insisting on "serbian" war crimes amidst a decade-long satanisation of serbs: for me it is a question of delicate balance between a fiendish opinion in the west, and what i (still?) think is, too often, a no-acceptance mood in Serbia. A crime is a crime. I am not arguing whether serbs comitted more crimes than others, iam posing a question: how many among us, deep down, feel that Mladic and Karadzic and co were really in their right when killing civilians (You Bogdan say "only" Srebrenica, which of course is belittling the tragedy)because they killed ours, and so on and so forth.And how does discussing ICTY affect our humanity? I sense that judicial zig-zag renders many of us cold and indifferent to simple tregedy. These questions i pose mainly to my self, and my reasons to post them were really a wish to share them. As for ICTY: there is one good thing coming out of it, i feel: the discussion. About the tribunal, about the international community, about war crimes, about leadership, and so on, about collective guilt and responsibility, if you like. Not exactly a small gain. Mladic: What i meant by suggesting that his balance sheet of saved from slaughter / slaughtered might be close to 0, might be so if his extremism provoked others`?
  
  Nebojsa Matic
  Oslo

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 6:47 am
  

  Is it not an essential tenet of Law and Justice that defendants shall be judge by their peers?

  Mr. Nice (NATO) aparently lived during his high school days in Belgfrade . . .

  Judge May (NATO) can't quite fix his mind and follow the rapid vagueries of the trial thread without getting lost.

  Judge Robinson (COLONIAL) is as Mr. Milosevic said once to him "you're a good man, but you're being used by the prosecutor.."

  Judge Kwoon (OCCUPIED) seems to grasp it all and even knows how to read cyrilics, but, oh well, as an oriental he must be closer to the Slavic soul than the rest.

  Mr. Nice (NATO) argued once with Mr. Milosevic about his request for documents be presented to him in his national language saying to judge May (NATO) "the accused, who worked in New York has demonstrated to have a good command opf English"

  So, where are the peers?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 4:39 pm
  Nebojsa your suggestions about equal or lesser guilt (others and Serbs) are assuming anarchy. You know that Serbian people did not want to destroy Yugoslavia.

  In order to follow civilized standards one is supposed to follow existing rules (law).

  According to Yugoslavian constitution (from 1974) nobody had right to allow occupation of neither Yugoslavia nor part of its territory, nor the secession of it.

  You cannot assume that Yugoslavia did not exist. Serbian people and political representatives were acting according to existing Yugoslavian laws. West ignored it - Why? - It’s another question.

  Killing is not a crime. Killing is only the crime if it is done in contrast with existing law.

  Accordingly you can not make someone equally responsible who defends law with someone who breaks it.

  (Remember just Stipe's Mesic oath! - did he broke the existing law?)

  Yugoslavia was created on Nov 29. 1943. AVNOJ was constituted as Yugoslavian assembly representing all Yugoslavian nations. If Yugoslavia'n nations really had desire to separate the Yugoslavian parliament would be the only legal body that could've done that.

  If the parliament really did it, and Milosevic used force still to preserve Yugoslavia - then he will be responsible.

  If we assume for a moment that the only factor in destroying Yugoslavia was just of internal nature, we will see that Slovenians, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Albanians used movements or terrorist organization to fight against a legal government.

  Don't forget that the political party assumes use of legal means in order to gain power as oppose to movement, which integrally besides political party has armed groups. (Which makes them terrorists as well - in that case don't be fueled by elections) Slovenian political parties used TO as their integral part even though according to SFRJ law at that time TO was the integral part of SFRJ defense system not Slovenian. HDZ in Croatia distributed and armed its members. For Bosnian muslim president Izetbegovic taking presidency over a legal president Fikret Abdic and his party and armed groups no comment. No comment for UCK either.

  The question Nebojsa: Did the Serbs have right to defend themselves? Would Serbs bare less responsibility if they did not protect Yugoslavian's laws?

  Did Milosevic or SFRJ parliament brought any discriminatory law?

  Did Milosevic made any speach that was suggesting discrimination?

  If all laws and his speeches were not discriminatory against any other nation the Serbs cannot bare collective guilt as one can read openly between lines in any western media or political speeches.

  What are you suggesting?

  Tribunal even brought his speech from Kosovo Polje from 1987 as nationalistic, most likely because the same people brought indictment and carried out the rape of Yugoslavia.

  And most likely Nebojsa you don't know anything about Mladic, you are just reading what media says.

  Don’t you see the unbroken process in ethnical cleansing and deprivation of serbian land from 1914. Milosevic has very little to do with it.

  
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 9:40 pm
  I don't know who is in charge with yhis page,but I can't read it because is wider than the screen.Its only this forum .Can it be fixed.Thanks
  
  Vasile Ianos
  NJ

• Wednesday September 25, 2002 at 9:44 pm
  On another tack; My congratulations to the Serbian armed forces. They fallowed the elected leaders of the country as all armies should. Ms Albright expected a coup the second day the bombs fell on Begrade. Serbia is no third world republic where the US can set up a Pinochet. Bogdan, there is hope for you yet.
  
  Pertti Lindroos
  Quesnel
  BC Canada

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 3:25 am
  Pero. The question of the dissolution of Yugoslavia was brought to the Yugoslav Parliament in 1990 (+something). So the question was properly discussed. The parliamentary committee pointed to the very words you mentioned "representing all Yugoslavian nations". It also reminded of the well-known fact that according to the constitution the "nations" had the right to leave the federation. The committee concluded that because the AVNOJ documents spoke of "nations", not "republics", the existing republics couldn't just leave the federation. The borders had to be renegotiated. I can see your point about the SHS Republic (according to which the Serbs formed an integral part of the "original" Croatia), but it wouldn't be strictly relevant according to this parliamentary committee's conclusion.

  I think in the West this was seen as stalling, so the Badinter committee was set up and it concluded unsurprisingly that the borders have to be kept intact (the so-called uti possidetis). And as we have heard, Zimmerman &co. wanted this to set an example to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. The US administration made one fatal mistake (among many others). The Badinter committee concluded that Bosnia wasn't ready to become independent, but the US government recognized it anyway. So it is pointless to sling learned terms like uti possidetis, if you make yourself culpable of premature recognition the next day.

  Back to the question whether the line between right and wrong becomes dimmer over time. You know that it does. I don't have to quote any American films to drive home the point, because all of us have had our own experiences. When I noticed that I losing sight of the difference between right and wrong, I became a system drop-out. So I am paying a heavy price for keeping a clear conscience. I live as a semi-recluse, so that I don't have to worry if my colleagues stop greeting me in the morning because of something that I said or wrote.

  The so-called conspiracies are all about simple facts of human behaviour. We all like to be well-liked, popular and preferably rich too. So why is there so much hanky-panky in the government? Is it because the people are evil, or is it just because they demonstrate very human traits in the n:th power? I think "Simon" was quite right pointing out that behind the persona there is a flesh-and-blood human being. The difference between us mere mortals and the larger-than-life personalities is that we can worry about our conscience, but they have to worry about the posthumous fame, the judgment of history. This was quite obvious during the bombing campaign. Albright and Clinton spoke about judgment of history. I guess May is wondering if he will replace Pontius Pilate in the urban folklore. Nice wonders if he will replace Roberspierre. Djindjic wonders if he will replace Quisling (if he already hasn't).

  So Nebojsa is right about one thing. It is no small gain to discuss. That will influence the popular perception of these people. The Serb atrocities may have entered Encyclopedia Britannica, but history is too unpredictable. You never know if that entry will be removed and replaced by another on Del Ponte. And these people know it, and that keeps them nervous. That allows us to address their conscience.

  But let us not look too much at the personal failures either. A lot can be attributed to the system. Can you blame May for having another Briton as a persecutor? If you want on-point criticism, this is number one. You can place yourself in May's shoes. Imagine you spent a few years in a foreign country, perhaps away from your family and surrounded at your workplace by foreign hordes. Then imagine that the prosecutor, a person you are supposed to treat impartially, is a fellow citizen of yours. You can speak in your own language and catch all those little nuances that the foreign speakers miss. Maybe he is from the neighbouring village. Can you really blame May if he doesn't manage to stay impartial? Who the (beep) appointed two Britons for these two posts? The President of the Tribunal? What was he thinking? That we should watch the trial with a blissful smile on our faces when the two Britons are annihilating the defense?

  I noticed how hard for me it was to "throw a stone" at Helena Ranta and Tarja Halonen, even if I am definitely no supporter of the latter. They are fellow citizens. If you criticize them, you might get into trouble back home. In Finland, you have to avoid the anger of the Finnish feminist morons, who probably think that women are immune to corruption just because they are women. Maybe the equal opportunities stuff has blurred their vision of right and wrong.

  How about the other judges? Jamaicans might object to being called colonial. I think they are very proud of their independence. South Koreans might not appreciate being called occupied. But they is one strange thing about this trial: the English language. Isn't it a wonderful coincidence that the judges come from countries that have some ties with the English language? The tribunal has two official languages: English and French. So why not appoint one French or at least a Francophone judge? Especially when the chief of the prosecution team is British!

  Also: Judge May heads the revision team (or whatever it was called). So it seems he can make any changes to the Statute and the Rules that he likes. Two much power in one person.

  The tribunal is "diseased throughout", and it should be dissolved. Because I am sure none of the big figures have the guts to resign, there is no other way to achieve this than a police investigation.

  About the peers. That is English lingo. It belongs to a class society where the different stands couldn't be judged by other stands. This lingo has survived the American revolution. Strictly speaking, it doesn't seem to fit a classless society, so don't let the actual meaning of the word distract you. It just means a jury.

  And actually a jury is not something exclusively Anglo-American. You know, northern Europe was never part of the Roman Empire, so it never really absorbed the so-called "Roman law". I guess the northern European legal systems are just as much "pre-Roman" as the English one. Maybe even more. So we have our juries as well, even if we don't call them such. I think they would be called lay judges.

  But in the Milosevic trial there would indeed be a need for separation of "classes". That is what the old rules of immunity of the Heads of State were for. So such a trial against a (former) head of state would be an impossibility if the old rules were adhered to. And you can instantly see what the rules were good for. Milosevic won't be released. Why? Because he would run away? The fact is that it would be hard to drive him away once he got started with the trial. The reason is just that if he were a free man, as he should, he might gather a following for himself and destablize the delicate political balance the Western countries have brought about in Yugoslavia. The proceeding should be null and void just for keeping Milosevic locked up.

  Before we get carried away by truth commission and such, let's retrace our steps, shall we? There are existing mechanisms for dealing with the alleged crimes of heads of state, and these have passed the natural selection process, unlike their newer mutations. In Yugoslavia there must be a special court for dealing with crimes allegedly committed by the head of state. Maybe that is the constitutional court, I don't know. There has to be one, just like the impeachment process in the US. So why don't we use it? The Yugoslav politics have been reconstituted to the Western liking, so it can't be the depravity of the Yugoslav legal system that is to blame. I hope my question "so why don't we use it?" were rhetorical, but I am afraid it is not. Denying the validity of the existing Yugoslav mechanisms makes just as little sense as keeping Milosevic behind bars at The Hague.

  There are other existing mechanisms too. Remember the International Court of Justice. Do you need a truth commission on the "Kosovo" bombing, when there is a case pending at the ICJ against the Nato states on the Legality of Use of Force? Do you want the truth about Croatia? Croatia started proceedings against Yugoslavia on Genocide. Let's see if that sticks first befor going on to the individual guilt. (It makes things no better that the Croatia indictment doesn't mention genocide.)

  And how about the two semi-mythical figures, Karadzic and Mladic? I think we have admitted (inadvertently) that they committed crimes. If what happened in Srebrenica is any indication, the Serbs killed at least 2,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys. We have been distracted by our own numbers games. It is true that figure isn't anywhere close to 7,000. It is true that at least as many Serbs were killed by Bosniaks. It is true that the Bosniaks misused the safe-haven for attacks on the Serbs. It is true that the victims were miraculously men and boys. It is true that Naser Oric is not investigated. But the bottomline is that the Serbs killed 2,000 Bosnian men and boys. Maybe they were soldiers, but they were still non-combatants (hors de combat) and killing them constitutes a war crime.

  But what is the resposibility of Karadzic and Mladic? They were indicted before they could even theoretically punish the perpetrators and thus be exonerated on the basis of Art. 7(3) of the Statute. That is entrapment! They were disqualified as Bosnian Serb leaders so they had no legal institutions at their disposal to do the job. According to the Dayton Accord the Yugoslav institutions can't operate in Republika Srpska. Do you blame the Bosnian Serbs don't trust the Bosnian legal institutions, no matter how the ICTY says they guarantee fair trial?

  And doesn't Nato have its share of the blame that they haven't been caught? If they wanted to catch them and knew they could, why did they wait more than five years before they started the hunt?

  There is some systemic problem here. The Yugoslav legal system may be regarded as incapable of handing valid war crimes sentences because Arkan could stay in Belgrade with impunity. So theoretically, Karadzic and Mladic might stay in Yugoslavia too. But Arkan's impunity belongs to the Milosevic era. Why does the new government has to be assumed guilty of harboring Karadzic and Mladic? But on the other hand, doesn't the fact that they still manage to hide show that Milosevic didn't have anything to do with their hiding? So wouldn't that mean that he couldn't touch Arkan either? Besides, what was the Yugoslav government to do? Extradite them to Bosnia and Herzegovina? How would that have happened? Through the Bosnian federation, which was supposed to transfer them to Republika Srpska? It is more likely that they would have been shot dead in Sarajevo. And that is a valid reason not to extradite. The Yugoslav government couldn't have extradited the indictess to Republika Srpska, because I think according to the Dayton Accord they were to sever all ties with the Bosnian Serb institutions. Should they have tried them in Belgrade? Wouldn't the hundreds of thousands of refugees have revolted? It would have been impossible to catch them.

  These are things the Bosnian and Croatian part of the trial will possibly shed some light on. As if.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 8:18 am
  A new forum on Milosevic's trial is open at BBC. Please, partecipate !!
  
  Serjoe B
  Italy

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 12:08 pm
  

  So, the genocide charges were not dropped after all and Mr. Nice (NATO) made a terrible presentation this morning for the Bosnia-Croatia case. Madame del Ponte in her most platinum hair due was present for the ritual.

  Mr. Milosevic gave the audience and the trial chamber an educational documentary, with many interesting interviews on the destruction of Yugoslavia, then he paused, elaborated in the process and had another documentary shown with the famous fabricated images of the dead camp in Bosnia, the interview taken by the independent team of journalist and most of the tape, by now of the well known and ready available at EMPEROR WITHOUT CLOTHES video: Judgement

  The judges were most interested and asked questions about this reveling documentary, judge May (NATO) turned his seat towards Mr. Milosevic and for about 20 minutes he looked genuinely interested in Mr. Milosevices comments.

  Yes, gospodin May (NATO) barbed wire and a thin man together with the picture of a watch tower does not make a death camp, and tenis shoes don't make a mass grave neither, I could add.

  Mr. Milosevic asked for more time, another hour and half to be able to read all his comments, he was given another 25 minutes . . .

  International Law and trials are good for international disputes and litigations and cases. But I doubt a Sweedish judge could deal in all fairness with the case of a family feud among tribal communities in say, the Atlas mountains.

  Or a British (even non NATO) court in dealing with a refrigerator lorry plunged in the international Danube river during a war, full of un-identified and vanished corpses.

  But when it comes to the East the West has shown and shows not only contempt but also arrogance, and Great Britain . . . shall I say more?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) (MILITARISTIC)

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 1:21 pm
  

  But if it comes to allowing another adversary to reach military parity with the United States in the way that the Soviet Union did, no, the United States does not intend to allow that to happen, because when that happens, there will not be a balance of power that favors freedom; there will be a balance of power that keeps part of the world in tyranny the way that the Soviet Union did.

  US National Security Adviser CONDOLEEZZA RICE

  If you wnat to read the interview click HERE
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 1:55 pm
  Melodrama baffles reason

  The search for truth, a pillar of justice, is a moral action. It can never be “morally disgusting” to question the truthfulness of a witness especially in a court where many witnesses have been untruthful. Especially when witnesses may have been coached by the KLA to utter false testimony. The court transcripts record two witnesses who swore on oath Serbs bombed a refugee convoy even though Nato, after first blaming the Serbs, now admits that a Nato bomb attack caused the casualties.

  Click here for another example of such lies.

  What is “morally disgusting” is war itself. What is morally disgusting is a child torn to pieces by KLA mines, RPG’s, bullets, Serb artillery or a Blair cluster bomb.

  The KLA with Nato’s covert support started the war in Kosovo. The KLA abducted, tortured and murdered ethnic Albanians who opposed them along with Serbs. Nato indiscriminately deployed dumb bombs, especially cluster bombs, from a height of three miles hitting hospitals, schools and residential areas thus killing women and children. Serb tanks shelled KLA positions in villages some of which may have been occupied by civilians. Serb paramilitary forces have probably done worse. War is immoral, war is a ‘crime’ against humanity but the major responsibility falls upon those who initiate warfare. The Serbs were attacked by the KLA and were forced to defend Kosovo. What on earth were Blair, the now outspoken warrior against al-Qaeda, and his allies doing supporting Islamic terror in Kosovo?

  Very very few posting here deny that war crimes were committed by all parties in Kosovo. Very very few deny that those suspected of war crimes should answer before a court. Indeed many Serbs are doing just that. What we ask is that the court should be fair. What we ask is why only Serbs are being called to account.

  Because our criticism is “being misused by many to conclude that Serbs did nothing wrong” we are advised ‘not to blur the issue’: we should not offer just criticism of the ICTY: we should not ask why Serbs alone are being called to account for the war crimes committed in Kosovo. To desert the cause of justice for any reason, let alone this one, now that could be described as “morally disgusting”.

  If the ICTY does not conduct its affairs according to accepted principles of justice that is with impartiality and truth: if it exhibits a spectrum of legal contradictions then it is a nonsense. Keeping quiet, not rocking the boat, will not make it otherwise. Without justice life, for many, will continue to be “Nasty, brutish and short”.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 2:41 pm
  Moderator: Thank you for breaking up the September log - it was too huge to download in 30 seconds and I missed the last four days.

  Did anyone else have the same problem?
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 3:11 pm
  Yes Andre those of us with 56kBaud links and international transmission paths cannot receive text much above 300 lines.
  
  Peter Taylor
  Herts/UK

• Thursday September 26, 2002 at 5:21 pm
  Andre

  Yes, and I still unable to view the last 5 days from the archive.

  Did I miss anything important?
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 1:00 am
  I know that the Kosovo phase is over (for now), but here's an update anyway:

  http://www.ptd.net/webnews/wed/ax/Q

  Serb refugees stage roadblock to demand entry to Kosovo

  MERDARE, Yugoslavia, Sept 21 (AFP) - Serb refugees from Kosovo on Saturday staged a block on the main road leading from central Serbia to Kosovo to demand entry to the Yugoslav province. The group of about 100 refugees blocked traffic by parking vehicles across the main road in the village of Merdare on the administrative border with the UN-administered province of Kosovo. UN police in Kosovo (UNMIK) and soldiers from NATO's KFOR multinational peacekeeping force immediately deployed to the area to prevent the refugees from entering Kosovo. A member of the Serb non-governmental organisation Comittee for the Return to Kosovo (CRK) said the protesters were trying to see a UN resolution allowing refugees to return home enforced. "We do not want any incidents, all we want is the respect of UN resolution 1244 on Kosovo which allows for the return of displaced persons to their homes, " Dusica Mirkovic told AFP. "We are asking for negotiations with UN officials in Kosovo about the return of refugees." Serb Deputy-Prime Minister Nebojsa Covic and the CRK leadership on Friday called off a large-scale plan to send Serb refugees home to Kosovo, because of fears returning Serbs would not be safe. Serb authorities obtained information suggesting that Albanian terrorists were planning attacks on returning refugees, CRK head Miroslav Solevic told reporters on Saturday. It is estimated that more than 200,000 Serbs have fled their homes in Kosovo since June 1999, when Yugoslav army forces withdrew from the province after 78 days of NATO bombing. Only about 100 refugees have since returned to Kosovo. The UN administration and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) justify the small number by "lack of security for the Serb population," considering that a threat of violence by ethnic Albanian extremists still exists. More than 80,000 Serbs still live in Kosovo, mainly in enclaves protected by NATO-led peacekeeping forces, with restricted freedom of movement.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 1:04 am
  Also, Jared's latest on the freezer truck controversy:

  http://www.icdsm.org/more/freezer1.htm

  http://www.icdsm.org/more/freezer1app.htm
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 3:18 am
  So what should be done? I agree with Peter Taylor. All parties are guilty of war crimes, but justice will not be served by picking one party and punishing them. On the contrary. If you want these matters to be dealt with in a court of law at all, let all the other mechanisms beside the ICTY be used too, if the ICTY is unable to change its policy.

  To use the existing mechanisms, the Legality of Use of Force case pending before the International Court of Justice should be resumed. This case questions the legality of the of "Kosovo" bombing, which was done in the name of "humanitarian intervention". But who has the guts to resume it? Seselj? None of the other political figures will. But then it becomes a matter of politics, which it shouldn't be, because it it is a matter of justice.

  The reason for this reluctance is that the Milosevic trial has a lot to do with the intention to abort the Legality of Use of Force trial. If the Serb atrocities are demonstrated at the tribunal, the ICJ may not have the guts to touch the Legality of Use of Force case. Or it may do it just as sloppily as it did the preliminary ruling not to indicate preliminary measures to stop the bombing. If you resume that trial, it might be seen as refusing to "cooperate fully" with the ICTY, which is bad for the trade. However, if you want anything resembling a truth commission, you have to accept the fact that the ICJ continues its work on the Legality of Use of Force first. The case is there.

  And even if it is difficult for the ICJ judges, they have to conclude that the Nato's "humanitarian intervention" argument won't wash. That is exactly the reason the West fears the ICJ. In fact, the humanitarian intervention doctrine is nothing new in itself. It originally meant intervening to save your own nationals in a foreign country.

  Of course, you have to allow the ICJ to proceed with the Genocide case, Croatia v. Yugoslavia, too. But if you want the truth, it is going to hurt. Maybe nothing will come out of the Genocide case, but then at least no-one has reason to believe that the case was stalled because Croatia might not have won it and the Serbs were left at the mercy of the ICTY instead. It does seem suspicious that these two cases at the ICJ have been halted while the Milosevic trial is in progress. This isn't the way it should be. Even the ICC statute says that the ICC cases do not preclude cases determining the responsibility of the respective state, but conversely, it doesn't say that the trial in which the individual criminal responsibility is determined should stop the case to determine the responsibility of the respective state.

  The regime change in Yugoslavia is now a fact. The Milosevic trial is now meant to reinforce that change. But it seems that the West itself still doesn't believe in the change. Otherwise Milosevic could be transferred back to Serbia and tried there. The Serbs must have an impeachment procedure for cases like this. The West must fear that Milosevic would start politicking. The thought on everybody's mind is that the Serbs don't trust this trial. But on the other hand, wouldn't this mistrust be enough reason to let Milosevic be tried legally in Serbia? Then Milosevic wouldn't have so much to politick with. He may do the same thing as Napoleon did when he came back from Elba, but Napoleon's comeback was short-lived. If it is necessary to transfer Milosevic to St. Helena, that has to be discussed later.

  Pierre-Richard Prosper, the US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, did suggest something like that but I don't know how much power he has in the administration. Even the Human Rights Watch slammed him for telling the ICTY to wrap things up.

  The least ICTY can do is to release Milosevic. Yes, he may gather support in excess of just another war crimes criminal, but it is just as political to keep him in jail as it would be for him to rally support. He won't run away. Besides, if the trial lasts for another couple of years, he won't have time to do bad things in Serbia.

  The ICTY in itself should be subjected to a serious police investigation. I doubt whether the Dutch will start anything so dramatic. The resignation of the Kok administration was a dramatic move, but it concerned the Dutch guilt, not the guilt of somebody else. The Dutch tend to get masochistic. But that might be a way to get into the game. The doctors at the ICTY must be Dutch, and they have been rather bad sports in dealing with the detainees. They have refused to treat cancer patients. Did they do that voluntarily or did they receive orders?

  Prosper has talked about the "corruption and mismanagement" at the ICTY. The official interpretation is now that he meant the fee splitting: the ICTY pays the defense attorneys a sizeable sum and the defendants choose an attorney that shares the fees with them. But that can't be the whole truth. Would that explain Prosper's advice for ICTY to wrap things up? On the other hand, if the accusations of corruption are true (would Prosper make such allegations lightly?), why don't the Dutch police do anything. The ICTY is under their jurisdiction (in police matters). It is obvious that picking the prosecutor and the presiding judge out of the same nationality isn't something that just happens. Oiling is indispensable.

  Then there is the subornation of perjury. There is certainly no shortage of evidence. In fact, that is the only thing I think the video tapes are good for: as evidence in a criminal investigation. If the postings here are reliable, the subornation of perjury can be proven by the video tapes. The greater Del Ponte's opera gets, the greater the video trail it leaves behind. And besides, ICSDM should know best: the tribunal has still done nothing about Markovic's allegations of torture, even if according to the Statute it should.

  If there is any need for a truth commission, it should have a specific and well-defined task. I suggest that it should identify the bodies in Kosovo as well as in the Podrinje Identification Project. The bodies in Kosovo may have been identified but the prosecution is sitting on the results. The Podrinje Identification Project has managed to identify some victims, but the lack of money is cited as a reason for not doing that properly. It has been our speculation that nobody wants to identify the Serb victims. It is said that the DNA testing costs too much. However, if the video tapes are not used for their proper purpose as evidence, we should take the money used to produce them and do the DNA testing on the victims. If that still isn't enough, the ICTY should be abolished and the money used for DNA testing. You know, unless we know the basics, i.e. the numbers killed and their numeric allocation, we can't be sure if ICTY is pinpointing its cases properly.

  Had a long day at the garage, Simon? How about Simon Joseph from Amman Valley being the defense "star witness" in the Milosevic trial or the prosecution "star witness" in the ICTY investigation, as the case may be?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 6:11 am
  OK, i've been able to download a little more of the Sept. Archive.

  Pero

  Sorry can't get all your post due to time outs.

  Bogdan

  Please don't leave, you have too much to add to the debate, please stay. Mr Trkla and Nounensoun

  OK, now this is getting to the point of the insane, I don't know what your problems are and to be honest I'm past caring, I start using my spell check because my posts are getting longer and now I'm a bloody Marta Hari clone! Come on people do you really think NATO and OTP are that worried about this here debate they would place a mole here and even if they did why some-one as "obviously" stupid as me?

  "Let me ask you: Day 1 of what?"

  When I first started reading online posts, news etc. on the Balkans crisis , about a year ago.

  "Mr B. I would like to know one thing. Who are the "anti-Serb boneheads" that you don't want to be taken for, if you deny that such people even exist?"

  Exist they do, Blair being Bonehead-in-chief, and as you well know there's also a nasty infestation of them at the Hague. A brief read of any of our (UK) national press during the past years would have also exposed a bonehead infestation. Albright, Holbrooke, Rubin...need I go on?

  "Respect" Is a common phrase in the West Indian community, to which I happen to belong. Its used by me much as Andre's "peace" tag is. The t is dropped by the younger generation

  My dad was a pipe wielder, I attended Rhyl Street and Haverstock Hill schools in NW London, I left school in 1976 with 5 CSE's.{Huge gap, when rest assured I was not attending the Chevy Chase school for spies} I sold my business 4 years ago and moved to Wales, I'm currently studying for my ECDL via distance learning.

  I must say that your "lawyer" theory though wrong is a compliment to my ongoing goal of self-improvement, it would have brought a wry smile to the face of my dad and I can hear him now say with much susing of teeth "boy, I told you to stay on in school and get a trade" Maybe he was right.

  Now this is more than anyone has a right to know about me and the last contribution I'll make to this ridiculous thread, there are other issues that need to be explored other than you trying to make and me trying to defend non-existent links to the previous posters " Hardoz Nails" and "Name withheld"

  Nuff said, Respect!
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 8:15 am
  Peter

  While I don't dispute the basic premise of the ICDM article on the freezer truck story as a hoax, I do dispute the numbers quoted:

  http://www.serbia-info.com/news/2001-07/17/24567.html

  Quotes as of 2000 the number of exhumed as 4392, from 492 of 876 known sites.The responsibility for the 384 sites yet to be investigated seems to have been passed on to UNMIK by the ICTY.

  http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/balkans/
  kosovo/reports/A400772_12092002.pdf

  Also quotes numbers, 4300 exhumed with 3500 Albanians and 1200 non-Albanians still missing as of September this year.
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 8:43 am
  Simon

  First it was 100,000 now it is 10,000 'proved' by mathematical theory and there are in fact various numbers quoted by various bodies of the number of bodies of all parties well below this 10,000.

  After more than three years of occupation the numbers ought to be well established but they are not: Why?

  There are many examples of deliberate inflation of these figures.

  Simon you should continue to contribute to this forum and help discover the truth. Do not walk away from the cause of Justice.
  
  Peter Taylor
  h

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 8:55 am
  OK, Simon. I admit that my theory may have been wrong in its details. But I was right about the "us other ordinary Europeans" stuff.

  What's the difference? You could still be a star witness. The prosecution "star witnesses" have included I don't know what. Ratomir Tanic was a petty thief. We have had truck drivers. I don't know if we have had hairdressers and dishwashers. The prosecution thought they knew more than they did, and if they didn't know enough, they told them what to say. Did any of this bother the prosecution or the judges? Obviously not. ICTY still feeds the press as normal. Was the prosecution afraid of losing face? Certainly not. It still keeps going on. So do I think they would place a mole here? I think they would if they had a need. Do I think they would be stupid enough to do that? Yes I do. But the way the outcome of this trial seems to be predestined, they may not have the need.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 9:51 am
  Peter, I think you should read the first URL given by Simon. The number of exhumed bodies is 4,000+. They have dug up about half of all the grave sites they have established, which means that the total of bodies would be about 10,000. Hartmann said they will not dig up all graves, because they have got enough evidence already.

  But Simon. You still didn't answer me. How do you get the news with such numbers as "21:12"?
  
  J N
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 10:22 am
  Jari:

  The Podrinje Identification Project has managed to identify some victims, but the lack of money is cited as a reason for not doing that properly. It has been our speculation that nobody wants to identify the Serb victims. It is said that the DNA testing costs too much."

  I could not agree more. In fact, the wieseling about the exhumation started back in late 1996 when the first UN munchkin (I'll have to check the name) in charge of the exhumation works abruptly resigned, ostensibly in frustration over the lack of "progress", back in that particular case attributed to "not having enough SHOVELS." (I'm not making this up). That was back 6 years ago, in scientifically less advanced times, when they could not argue the DNA line, so they resorted to the shortage of manual equipment.

  Apparently it was due to the realization on the part of those in charge that they will have immense difficulty proving the 8,000 number by coming up with the bodies.

  Things did not improve much since. In fact, Milosevic has enough ammo - is he uses it right - to beat the Srebrenica charges. And if he beats Srebrenica - the crown jewel of the Bosnian indictment - he beats it all.

  Green light shoud be given to the recent RS report on Srebrenica, backed by grilling the key suspects in masterminding the hoax: Oric, Izetbegovic, Peter Galbraith,Anthony Lake,and supported by the testimony of those who understood what was going on: the key officers of the Dutch UN contingent, Akashi, Buthros-Ghali, etc.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 10:25 am
  Peter

  We need to quote the most upto date numbers least we be accused of manipulation or ignoring facts by those who defend NATO/KLA actions.

  Jari

  I have no doubt the out-come of this "trial" is predestined, mark my words, Milosevic will be found guilty of 75% of charges the 25% not guilty verdicts, would in the eyes of the ICTY, give them (cough)credibility, we know better.

  
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 10:32 am
  More:

  Jared Israel, Vice chairman of the ICDSM and editor of Emperor's Clothes interrogated the Deputy Prosecutor of the so-called Hague "Tribunal" regarding the testimony of the former security chief of Serbia, Radomir Markovic.

  Mr. Markovic had testified that he was pressured and tortured by Serbian security officials who work with the "tribunal".

  How did Mr. Blewitt respond to these charges? See for yourself.

  Blewitt Interview (5.8 MB RealAudio File) To just play the interview, go to http://emperor.vwh.net/Audio/blewitt.rm
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 10:36 am
  Andre

  I just read Milosevic has accused the French secret service and Serb paramilitary force's of planning the Srebrenica hoax, any info on this?

  Jari

  I get everything with google search's, maybe I have too much time on my hands :)

  Here's the URL for my results:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=total+exhumations
  +Kosovo+AND+2002&btnG=Google+Search&num=50&hl=en
  &lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&newwindow=1&safe=off

  
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 11:01 am
  The genocide charges are itemized in Schedules A to C of the Bosnia indictment. I agree that killing, say, 2,000 non-combatants would constitute a war crime. And the schedules at the back of the indictment certainly point to this conclusion. It goes on and on about Bosnian and Croatian men and boys. Once in a while it becomes downright tragicomical, like: "Rifet MUJKANOVIC, shot to death by Serb soldier". Is this genocide? The individual killing aside, does the killing of men and boys constitute genocide? The evidence I have in the back of my mind would point to a "simple" war crime. At least many of these people were militants, maybe unarmed at the time of the killing, but still. So what do we have? War crimes called genocide. The numbers are not necessarily too big, as in Srebrenica fact-wise. In Celinac, where Mujkanovic was killed, the numbers are too small for a genocide! I would say that the genocide is - again - heavy on "facts" and light on law. The genocide charge gets shaky by simply reading it through.
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 11:06 am
  Jari

  That was the refined search, here's the original URL:

  http://www.google.com/search
  ?q=total+exhumations+Kosovo&num=50&hl=en
  &lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&sa=n
  &oq=ttal+exhumations+Kosovo
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 11:45 am
  

  Todays' interview with ICTY Chief Prosecutor Carla del Ponto by Mensur Camo will air on RFE/RL's South Slavic services tonight. A RealAudio edition with BCS voice-overs also will appear on the Internet at http://danas.org later tonight.

  The full English-language edition of the interview (without voice-overs) will appear in RealAudio format on Domovina Net later tonight

  An unusally strong message came from ICTY Judge Richard May today:

  Press Advisory . Avis pour information (Exclusively for the use of the media. Not an official document)

  The Hague, 27 September, 2002 JL/P.I.S./PA063

  VIOLATION OF WITNESS PROTECTION

  Please be advised that during the Milosevic hearing today, Judge May, presiding, in response to a concern raised by the Prosecution, made the following statement:

  "We make it plain that any form of identification of a witness by a newspaper or indeed any other broadcast or other outlet is a contempt of this Tribunal. The purpose of these protective measures is to protect the witnesses, and for good reason. They're not made lightly. Therefore, any attempt by whatever means to identify a witness does amount to a contempt and will be the subject of sanctions."

  The issue of contempt of the Tribunal, including possible penalties, is covered by Rule 77 of the Tribunal’s Rules of Procedure and Evidence [left out]

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 11:56 am
  OK OK Simon I believe you. My only remaining suspicion was: why would a guy from the West Indian community be so interested in the Milosevic trial? But as it turns out, one of the judges is Jamaican.

  Besides, I think another thing I was right about was the Jamaican pride (well in fact there are other English-speaking islands in the West Indies, like Trinidad and Tobago, so I am not saying more). I hope it pans out OK in our judge's case.

  P.S. I may not be the only one having problems downloading the Blewitt file. What is the gist of the interview?
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 12:14 pm
  May's statement would show to a cynic like me that the tribunal is selective in its witness protection. OK, I know "witness protection" is a technical term, but does that exclude torture? That is why I think it would be crucial to know what Blewitt said.

  By the way, talking about truth commissions, there is a Commission for Truth and Reconciliation in Serbia. On the other hand, the Croatian historian Ivo Goldstein said in the South Slavic Report (19 September):

  "A large part of the Croatian public considers operation Storm [in August 1995 against Krajina] to be an act of liberation and refuses to discuss the other side of it. By that I mean the ethnic cleansing and the mass flight of the Serbs that turned them into refugees. Historical truth is a complex matter, but many people do not want to see any side but their own."

  I think we are bloody morons that everyone is right to ignore, but maybe we might do something about "truth and reconciliation".
  
  J N
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 12:33 pm
  

  It is remarkable how Mr. Nice (NATO) sounds more and more like an ustashe , we shouldn't be surprised after all NATO took over in 1948 some unfinished European issues.

  I am pleased Mr. Frank Tiggelaar (NATO) makes himself the spokesman of judge May (NATO), perhaps he could elaborate on the total failure of the video and audio link of today's session and details about amici curiae Mr. Wladimiroff (NATO) new interview to a Bulgarian newspaper saying once more Mr. Milosevic does not have a chance to be acquitted.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO) (AGGRESSIVE)

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 12:42 pm
  

  Radio Slobodna or Radio Liberty is truly Radio NATO-CIA and that Carla del Ponte has her talk show, on her bigger show in that radio station tells you all the nature of her impartiality.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (PLANNING AGGRESSION)

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 12:42 pm
  Just a quick note before the well-deserved weekend. Did Mr Wladimiroff really say that again? How did May react?(just kidding!) One of Milosevic's lawyers, I think the name was Nico Steijnen, threatened to complain of Wladimiroff among others to the Dutch law society (or its equivalent) but obviously that didn't help. The sanctions are now a one-way street. Nobody should doubt that May is serious!
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 12:47 pm
  Witness protection

  How are Milosevic witness's to be offerd the same level of protection from NATO when the whole court is run by NATO?

  I'll bet we see no NATO/UK/US insiders for the defense. Come to think of it the only person of influence I've seen say he'd testify for the defense is the Russian FM, you guys have any other names to add to the list?
  
  Simon Joseph
  Amman Valley
  UK

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 1:13 pm
  

  Yes Jari, that is what Mr. Milosevic told Judge May (NATO) just before the arrival of another protected witness and while the ushers were putting up the window shutters to protect his identity.

  Judge May (NATO) said he wanted to talk about it once the shutters were removed, Mr. Milosevic also objected to the practice of starting with a witness knowing full well as Mr. Nice (NATO) had said, he would nto be able to finish since another more important witness was due to arrive next week, judge May (NATO) always conciliatory and never too committal said "we shall see how it goes", and it went in to darkness.

  Ah, there is a new prosecutor, a rather threatening looking individual, replacing Mr. Ryneveld who has not given ( am I mistaken?) any interviews to the press.

  Enjoy your weekend Jari, and keep an eye on NATO, you never know they might decide to "invite" Suomi to join.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  U.S.A>

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 1:24 pm
  

  There are a number of important witnesses besides Mr. Primakov Mr. Milosevic wants to call. Among them Mr. Thorwald Stoltenberg the Norwegian diplomat who replaced Cyrus Vance as the UN representative during the events in Croatia. There is also Yasushi Akashi appointed by UN Secretary General Boutros-Ghali (barred by the US to serve a second term) as head of UNPROFOR.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 1:27 pm
  A question to Grand Poobah via his spokesman:

  If "any form of identification of a witness by a newspaper or indeed any other broadcast or other outlet is a contempt of this Tribunal," what is the point of having witnesses at all?

  How could one be sure if what they say is true if we don't know who they are, and any of their cross-examination is rendered useless without revealing their identities, backgrounds, positions, track records, etc. e.g. everything that would constitute fertile grounds for a vigorous cross-examination in the pursuit of truth?

  This does not seem to concern the Grand Poobah, who appears to have extended an invitation to return to the good ol' traditions of the Grand Inquisition and the NKVD. He could save everyone a great deal of time and money by simply introducing summary convictions.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 1:47 pm
  

  I have to say Vyshinski was a perfect prosecutor: all accused pleaded guilty! Ambassador Joseph Davis was pleased about how convincing Soviet justice was: bygone times Carla, bygone.

  Misses del Ponte you're no Vyshinski!

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (NATO)

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 4:00 pm
  To Bogdan, Walter, Gogol, Andre and Jari.

  How come there are no comments from you about "The State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs"

  What is your opinion that Serbian sites mixed up that state with the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians.

  Do you too consider irrelevant that Serbs at the end of WW I had two different states which they lost in Yugoslavia?
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 5:45 pm
  

  I am not quite sure why you would like to have comments on "The State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs" in this site but one thing is certain: in history nothing is irrelevant.

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA (MAKES W.M.D.)

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 6:07 pm
  

  In reply to Mr. GC (FAKE IDENTITY):

  I got so pissed off by your hero's today's statements that I simply couldn't resist blowing some fuses in the Hague from my console in Amsterdam. This not only stifled your heroic leader on Internet, it also brought all the international A/V media reporting from the Hague to a stand-still - save those using uplink vans with built-in generators. This afternoon I figured out a way to sabotage such vans, too, the next time I am (AGRESSIVE).

  Confused? You won't be after this one (MONTHY PYTHON): two of the main sponsors of the Tribunal Live service that you apparently so badly miss when there is a technical problem are Soros CH/NY (NATO/CIA/OSCE/NWO) and RFE/RL Prague (USA/NATO/CIA/NWO/GmbH/Ltd). These institutions were not involved in any way in my today's protest, however, so do not blame them!

  Frank Tiggelaar (ICTY supporter)

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 6:07 pm
  

  Following a power failure in a part of the ICTY building this morning, Tribunal Live's network was brought to an abrupt standstill. This not only halted all live Internet audio and video, it also corrupted the disk files we record for the Bard Internet archives and stopped the ATMedia and Sense DVCAM decks we use to re-digitise in case of problems with the real-time encoding.

  We hope to receive the missing video from the ICTY AV-Service in the course of the coming week. As soon as we have it we'll add the missing archive files.

  My apologies for the inconvenience.

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 6:51 pm
  No big deal, Frank. Patience is our second nature. I trust that Those In Charge, having been able to arrange for stealth bombers to fly from Missouri to Belgrade and back can fix a power failure in the court building. Merci.
  
  Andre Huzsvai (not a fake ID)
  U.S.

• Friday September 27, 2002 at 9:58 pm
  

  The ICTY had once a fire, lets see it was March 5. Some sort of a cheap electric heater left on, it was said, but really it was my "hero" who did it.

  Now, my "hero" blows the electrical fuse and this affects the internet but not the TV link which the BBC had available to show the "butcher" in all his splendors.

  No need to apologize, it was a technical problem, was itn't?

  I wonder why the human head, the handy work of some mujahdeen did not make the video channel broadcast to the public as Mr. Milosevic indicated, was that perhaps the cause of the surge blowing the fuse?

  
  
  Gogol Charlemagne (Charle Martel was my grand father)
  Conn. USA (UNILATERAL)

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 2:53 am
  You don’t need to ask Gogol, Domovina Net is Isebegovic’s baby. However I find it interesting that Mr. Tiggelaar also blew a fuse when he said “I got so pissed off by your hero's today's statements”. He didn’t strike me as the kind to use foul language. Please Mr. Tiggelaar use PO as I have some 30 kids looking at this site from time to time. One thing for sure, Frank Tiggelaar is a real person and that is scary since he is (ICTY supporter)

  Simon it is obvious to most of us on this page that you did not allow school to interfere with your education. You seem to know many things about this topic, so self putdowns were one thing that suggested to me that you were a provocateur. You seem to have misread my posts. I do not object to diverse opinions but one needs to stand behind what they say even if someone like Walter accuses them of being a plant. It is posts like yours that prevent us from chasing our tail here.

  Some comments about Bosnia which may shed some light on why the region unraveled as it did. Prior to the breakup the votes in the Bosnian assembly for the most part went against the Serbs as the Croats and the Muslims voted together. When elections were held for a new assembly, instead of voting for a political ideology, the people voted on nationalist lines and the rest is history. Karadjic warned everyone that a breakup will lead to disaster. He was right. But what was he to do? Allow the karst pits to be filled again as they were filled just fifty five years previously. When Serbian families were finally allowed to open these pits in order to give a proper burial to the victims the local citizens Muslim and Catholic were saying “take all the bones out so that there will be more room for the new ones”. Does what I am saying here mean that one side or the other should mistreat innocent people; expel them from their homes, absolutely not. I know that this was done by all sides and I also know those that did not want to participate in this their homes were blown up by their neighbors. Anarchy was the order of the day.

  Presently in Bosnia the same nonsense is going on. This time the Serbs and the Croats are voting together against the Muslims. Serbs have a veto in the assembly while the Croats do not. Emperor Ashdown, sorry Lord, excuse me I want to puke is trying to change the Dayton agreement and strip the Serbs of their veto. Maybe I am wrong reconciliation is not possible.

  Pero I am not sure what you mean by your post. I know that Serbs lived outside of Serbia proper in every part of former Yugoslavia and most were expelled thanks to NATO.

  Mr. Tiggelaar, I am not sure if this was done with tongue in cheek when you said that Domovina is sponsored “by Soros CH/NY (NATO/CIA/OSCE/NWO) and RFE/RL Prague (USA/NATO/CIA/NWO/GmbH/Ltd)”. Who ever sponsors you (you forgot Isetbegovic and the leaders of NATO) the Tribunal is doing the bidding of the ones that you have named. By the way readers note the sponsors of ICTY and imagine their budget and compare that with Milosevic’s defense team. Mr. Tiggelaar, Jarred Israel needs funds for his defense of Milosevic and I am sure you want fairness here so if you want to contribute turn to the Emperor Clothe web page the address is there, but better than that you and Jarred must pass in the hallway at the Nazi Fortress so why not just give your contribution directly to him? By the way wish him luck from most of us on this page.

  Jari if you have bothered to read this far I have a legal question. Is there a legal relationship between ICTY, ICC and ICJ if so what is it? In Canada a challenge under The Charter of Rights and Freedoms would not proceed if an upper court was in a process of looking at a similar issue. The lower court case becomes moot until a decision is reached in the similar case that has reached the Appeal Court. Could this be the reason why the ridiculous Croat case against Yugoslavia is .stalled?

  By the way I don’t agree that Canada would be a good choice of neutrality. America makes and breaks our political leaders. The only contemporary PM that would fit the neutrality you write about was Trudeau and unfortunately I don’t see a Trudeau in any political party in Ottawa.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 5:02 am
  Simon, you still owe me an answer to a post I've posted somewhere in September. Since you had problems downloading the archive, let me repeat part of it. It had to do with you saying you would rather have small fish Seselj indicted, even if bigger fishes(NATO) remain out of reach of justice:

  "Imagine an alternative course in history. Hitler won a WW2. Germany set up an international court for war criminals in Hague. The international community led by Germany, Italy and other axis powers puts the pressure on GB to deliver the war criminal Winston Churchil and his criminal gang, for his crimes of firebombing the German cities, and especially igniting Dresden. So, would you then consider it a justice that a herring Churchil is sent to Hague while big fat shark Hitler amuses himself in his Jew-free enlarged Germany discussing with his SS officers who of the Brittish politicians they will have indicted next. Would you feel like a nation of heavenly angels, taking the upper moral grounds cleaning up your courtyard, or would you feel like prostituting yourselves, your pride and your country to the morally inferior Germans giving them right to judge you."
  
  Bogdan Oparnica
  Belgrade
  Yugoslavia

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 8:10 am
  

  Mr. Huszvai: Those who flew the bombers are over-funded, the ICTY is under-funded. With the media-hype that comes up every time there is 'an event in the Hague', the electronic media room gets overcrowded and the electricity consumption rises to a level the building's grid was never designed for. To give you an idea: I have to use some 50 extension power-sockets to run Tribunal Live's equipment from just a single 230V socket.

  Mr Trkla: point taken, I'll watch my language in future.

  As for Tribunal Live funding: all sponsors of the project are listed on our credits-page, there is nothing secretive about it. All in all we received US$ 25,000 for the 1998-2003 period which bought us 8 PC's, peripherals such as modems, hubs, cabling, etc, and software; it also paid for our dial-in ISDN connectivity during 1998-2000. The other seven P200 PC's we use in the Hague were obtained for free. 1)
  On top of that we have the free use of xs4all's 2) facilities; from 1.1.2001 Outreach pays our ADSL's @ EUR 150/month while REF/RL lets us use their RealServers for free. None of our volunteers gets (or ever got) any money from the budget, which is overseen by Internews in the USA.

  As for the 'Jarred must pass in the hallway': I have a normal job which is not in any way related to the ICTY, so on average I am in the ICTY no more than four hours/month. All s/w maintenance, timer-settings, etc. for the Hague systems is done from my home in Amsterdam, some 70 kms away from the ICTY. Hence there is little chance of Mr. Israel and myself passing in the hallway, let alone bumping into each other. But never mind, our budget is so limited that it shouldn't be too difficult for Mr. Israel to raise similar cash on his own. If I can do it, so can he. Other than that, I should say that donating towards the defense of a man who has enjoyed a presidential salary for a decade is one of my priorities.

  Mr GC: BBC is one of the media which has its own dedicated equipment at the ICTY including a satellite uplink with a power generator. Their Internet encoding is done elsewhere (I suppose in London using the satellite signal). That's why they were on air/Internet(?) on Friday morning and Tribunal Live wasn't.

  Frank Tiggelaar

  1) The FreeSerbia Tribunal project and the Bard College archive servers have their own budgets

  2) XS4ALL is Holland's third biggest ISP; they have sponsored Domovina Net since 1994, B92 since 1996 and FreeSerbia and Tribunal Live since 1998. Nothing secretive here, either. All sponsorships are listed on http://www.xs4all.nl/overxs4all/sponsoring/index.html

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 8:37 am
  

  Erratum

  Where my previous posting reads:

  Other than that, I should say that donating...

  please read

  Other than that, I cannot say that donating...

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 11:03 am
  Frank thank you for the explanation of how the Fortress works and why the electrical system failed it is appreciated. It is interesting that all those journalists are there but what is more interesting nothing appears in our media about the trial. By the way Frank I was not referring to your budget I was referring to NATO’s budget. If the Tribunal is under budget imagine how Milosevic’s defense team is under budget.

  Jari I sent letters to several Justice Ministers of NATO countries complaining about lack of due process in this trial and the only ones that acknowledged my e-mail are Canada and Holland, however, they have not responded officially . I have also sent a letter to CRTC, the media watchdog in Canada concerning the issue of Media bias. Other Canadians on this page should send letters to CRTC as well because our media needs to know our concerns. I think CRTC takes this issue seriously.
  
  Walter Trkla
  Kamloops BC
  Canada

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 12:30 pm
  

  I remain sceptical and would have found the explanation more plausible had the whole building lost its power. I think the electrical engineer at the ICTY could have distributed the load a little better, but yet again all things related to this ICTY are so misterious . . .shutters up, shutters down, del Ponte calling for credibilitty and public testimonies while calling her first witness "a protected witness".

  But, please I am sure Frank Tiggelaar is a dedicated supporter of the effort and is in no way to be blame for the ICTY difficulties. C'est la vie
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 7:11 pm
  Recently I had a chance to talk to woman that is from Sarajevo. Her father is Serbian and her mother Croatian. She is the woman of Yugoslav background. When talking about "Ethnic cleansing" is anybody ever going to be charged with destruction of Yugoslavia and "ethnic cleansing" of 4 million Yugoslavs (children from mixed marriages)? Let us not forget famous words of Croatian President Stipe Mesic, called to be witness to Milosevic and the last President of Former Yugoslavia: "Gentlemen, I have done my job. Yugoslavia as a country does not exists any more". I find repulsive that nobody is ever going to point finger into a real cause of destruction of Yugoslavia and that is Croatian and Slovenian secession. Milosevic is ruthless, but just a byproduct of unilateral secession supported by Germany. Also let us not forget that 1 000 000 dead Serbs from the WWII are the cause of Serbian paranoia. As the Croatian capital Zagreb has a street named Ante Pavelic - Croatian Nazi leader from WWII, we are forced to endure this parody of justice called Hague.
  
  Anna Turcotte
  Canada

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 8:10 pm
  Walter:

  "It is interesting that all those journalists are there but what is more interesting nothing appears in our media about the trial."

  No kidding. Case in point: the NYT wrap-up of the Kosovo phase of the trial - "Reviving Memories of Yet Another Evil", by Marlise Simons, NYT, September 22, 2002

  Confirming that the case against Milosevic is running on empty, Marlise's report on the “biggest war crimes trial since WW2” merited only a four-inch insert on the "Week in Review" section, page 3, after the report on dumb fish.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Saturday September 28, 2002 at 9:47 pm
  

  If you want to know what media were present in the Hague these past few session days, have a look at:

  the ICTY's accreditation page

  Those listed on this page are 'the happy few' who received a pass for the public gallery which, for courtroom 1, has a capacity of 80 seats (of which a couple are always reserved for ambassadors and other diplomatic representatives). There were also a lot of media people who were confined to the lobby on the ground floor and the media rooms. Amongst them are APTV (Associated Press) and Reuters TV. They are present every session day to produce an overview. In other words: the news is available every day, but many stations are apparently not interested in buy their footage.

  Even the local print media's reporting on the trial was scant, reported BBC's website on Friday - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2285327.stm

  The number of Tribunal Live listeners/viewers on Thursday was remarkably low as well at just under 80,000 stream views of 30+ minutes. The BHS streams accounted for 70% of this total

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Sunday September 29, 2002 at 1:33 pm
  

  Reflexions on Sbrenica

  For nearly 30 years the media denied or questioned, and in any case did not fully aknwoledge the Luftwaffe's responsability and complicity with the Spanish fascist in the destruction of the ancient capital of the Spanish Basque country Guernica, when in a market day the town was bombed without warning with incendiaries, killing over 2,000 civilians and burning it to the ground.

  Fascist propaganda fully accepted by the "democratic" foreign press put the blame on the Republican reds accusing them for putting Guernica on fire in order to blame Franco's nationalists and his Nazi backers for it.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Sunday September 29, 2002 at 7:16 pm
  

  Mr CG,

  Obviously a typo has crept in the title of your posting. I take it 'Sbrenica' should read 'Guernica'?

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Sunday September 29, 2002 at 8:05 pm
  

  No, not all. It means what it says. Just, if I may suggest to you, compare the current unresolved issue on the extend and responsibility of the alleged crime of Srebrenica with Guernica's and you will find the meaning of my posting.

  How is the ICTY coming along in fixing the blown fuse?
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 4:20 am
  Walter, I agree that Canada would be a poor choice for a source of impartial experts. Remember that the former chief prosecutor Louise Arbour is now in the Supreme Court of Canada. Imagine Canadians writing bad stuff about her! Maybe we would be treated with more contempt charges! So I agree: no Trudeau in sight.

  I must admit I haven't written to any Justice Ministry yet. I managed to come up with some compelling (to me) case only last Friday (as far as I can remember). This consists of three elements: poor medical treatement, Prosper's allegations of "corruption and mismanagement", and subornation of perjury (+ video evidence). Now that I have something to say, I will put my thoughts on paper, I promise.

  I am encouraged that the Dutch Ministry did respond. See, they are receptive. Don't let a few ICTY supporters fool you.

  The relationship between ICTY, ICC and ICJ is a mystery to everyone. But in my opinion the provision in the Statute of the ICJ Art. 1 means what it says: the ICJ is the principal judicial organ of the UN. That means that it has primacy over the ICTY, which is a suborgan of the Security Council. The Security Council is one the manin organs of the UN, just like the ICJ.

  The ICC is no organ of the UN. It is an independent organ established by a multilateral treaty. On the other hand, it will have some relationship with the UN. Art. 2 of the ICC Statute says: "The Court shall be brought into relationship with the United Nations through an agreement to be approved by the Assembly of States Parties to this Statute and thereafter concluded by the President of the Court on its behalf."

  So in my opinion (and there may be as many opinions as there are "experts"), a case which is pending at the ICJ, like Genocide (Croatia v. Yugoslavia) and Legality of Use of Force (Yugoslavia v. certain Nato states), cannot proceed at a "lower" organ, like ICTY. In fact, it doesn't even matter which organ is higher, because the proceedings at the ICJ were initiated first. This is called lis pendens.

  In order for lis pendens to work, it is required that the cases are similar. In my opinion, the two cases are dealing with the same subject matter as the Milosevic trial. The Croatia indictment has a connection with the Genocide case. The Kosovo indictment is a sort of reverse side of the Legality of Use of Force, which deals with the legality of the Kosovo bombing.

  But maybe the ICTY now has such a scary image that the two cases at the ICJ have been halted to give way to the Milosevic trial. And as we already know, the ICTY is making the rules as it goes, and these rules seem to be binding on all the other organs as well!

  Andre said that if Milosevic wins the Srebrenica charge, he wins it all. This is the crux of the whole matter.

  It is all about genocide, and the Bosnia indictment is the only one which the prosecution believes it can make stick (it has been "enshrined" in the Krstic judgment).

  You know, the genocide charge is the reason the Serbs are treated like (you know what). That is why the Serbs' rights are trampled on. That is why the Serbs are practically singled out for ICTY indictments.

  So if the Srebrenica charge collapses, everything does. The genocide charge is the reason why ICTY can arrogate to itself the war crimes investigations. (Otherwise the war crimes would fall under the national jurisdiction.) It is the reason that the Serb legal system is treated as "diseased throughout". And it is the reason that ICTY now has all the evidence relevant for both genocide and war crimes charges.

  And because the ICTY now has the evidence, i.e. the corpses, how about the 200-400 war crimes convictions that have been handed down in Serbia? The effect can be devastating! The ICTY prosecution can say that these convictions were based on show trials, because there was no evidence: ICTY has the corpses.

  Well, this is a clear case of entrapment, if there ever was one. How can the "superiors" in the sense of Art. 7(3) of the ICTY Statute do anything to avoid individual criminal responsibility on the basis of the same provision when the punishment by the "superior" is null and void, becausing ICTY is holding the evidence!

  Add to this entrapment the whole entrapment saga surrounding the Srebrenica massacre. Karadzic and Mladic indicted before they can punish the perpetrators of the war crimes. Why did ICTY do that? Simply because it has reason to believe that those war crimes were not war crimes but genocide!

  I have nothing but contempt for this tribunal. It is revealing that May now considers "contempt of court" his trump card to stop the investigation of the bribery and torture allegations of the witnesses. This time May's thundered at the journalists, but I think he may have the same plan for any nosy police investigator, especially if such an investigator is acting on a hint from the media.

  On the other hand, with the contempt threat May is allowing us to turn our numerical weakness into a strength. I for one could use "contempt" as a personal tag the same way as "respect" and "peace" has been used by others. May can threaten the "priveleged few" of the press with the revocation of the privileges, but is he going to use the same trick on the informed public as well? I am almost sorry to say this, but since I regard these proceedings as null and void, what choice do I have but to regard such "contempt" threats as null and void as well?

  At least May has no right to threaten this "jury" of ours, even if the trial is going awry from his point of view. If he thinks he can do that, is he going to threaten the other two judges as well, if they decide to outvote him?

  Besides, he may resort to such inane (I didn't say insane) threats ever more often as the trial is not going to his liking. Remember that according to Mirko Klarin, the cross-examination by Milosevic would have brought contempt charges on him in any other context. In fact, it may be an indication that Judge May is beginning to feel the heat, that he now threatens some people with a contempt charge. (Or maybe I am just over-optimistic.)

  By the way, if May gets into the "contempt" game, he may fall victim to the obstruction of justice game himself. If he hampers any police investigation with such flimsy threats, he becomes guilty of obstruction of justice. This expression is familiar from the American police series. But obstruction of justice can also mean obstructing the use of a person's legal rights in a trial. I think we have seen enough of that in Milosevic's case already. He should be released, for starters. And to come back to the two ICJ cases, subjecting a head of state to such an indictment and a subsequent trial is obstructing Yugoslavia's rights in the Legality of Use of Force case at the ICJ.

  This said, how does the Kosovo case look like? What does the ICTY prosecution have? They have exhumed about 4,000 bodies in Kosovo. About 3,000 are Albanians and 1,000 non-Albanians. Is this devastating for the defense? Not at all! On the contrary, the theories according to which all the bodies in Kosovo were casualties of either the Nato bombing or the KLA fire were much too tidy to begin with.

  They have found about 4,000 bodies in half of the graves. If they dig up the rest, they should have about 8,000 bodies. The expectation is that about 6,000 of these are Albanians and about 2,000 are non-Albanians. However, probably this ratio will not hold in all the findings, judging by the claims of about 1,500 Serbs still missing. (I am using very round figures here.)

  Remember that the identification process doesn't differentiate between combatants and non-combatants, militant and non-militants. So we may expect the legendary 2,000 dead KLA fighters to appear among those dead Albanians, just for good measure.

  On the other hand, the VJ did have its own identification process. In fact the dead VJ soldiers didn't have to be exhumed at all: they were not buried.

  And the bottomline is? The bottomline is 6000 Albanians, of which at least 2,000 are KLA soldiers. More than 2,000 non-Albanians. Plus the fallen VJ soldiers. In a word, a normal combat situation.

  Remember the Jenin "massacre". The Israeli Defense Force lost 23 soldiers (if I remember correctly, which I probably don't). The Palestinian casualties were 56, half of them civilians. The most noticeable difference is that there were no Israeli civilian in Jenin.

  So why should ICTY bother about all this? This was a normal combat, and as in any combat, war crimes were committed by both sides.

  The reason ICTY got involved at all was that the Kosovo investigation was clouded by the genocide allegations from the start. When it was confirmed by the UN court in Kosovo that no genocide took place in Kosovo, Del Ponte had to fall back on Bosnia, to keep the genocide myth from dying. Luckily, the ICTY had just handed down the Krstic judgment in August last year. In this judgment the Srebrenica genocide was carved in bronze. And the prosecution added the Croatia indictment just in case, because the Croatian Genocide case at the ICJ was leading nowhere, but on the other hand it added to the general atmosphere of fear surrounding the Milosevic trial.

  Contempt!
  
  Jari Nousiainen
  Finland

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 5:39 am
  

  Mr. CG,

  I don't see your point, but then again I am not very well informed about the Spanish civil war, and you do not explain at all in your message what Srebrenica and Guernica may have in common.

  As for the 'alleged' in your posting, I'd suggest you and others forum visitors to visit:

  http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020925/168/2blb7.html

  PHOTO: Forensic expert Pjotr Drukier, of Poland, a member of the International Commission on Missing Persons in Bosnia, inspects human remains found in a mass grave near the Serb-controlled village of Kamenica, 45 kilometers east of Tuzla, Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2002. [..]

  http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020925/170/2bk82.html

  PHOTO: Forensic experts work at a site September 25, 2002 of what is believed to be the biggest mass grave discovered so far in Bosnia [..] (REUTERS/Damir Sagolj)

  http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020925/170/2bk9e.html

  PHOTO: Forensic experts examine a skull exhumed September 25, 2002 [..] (REUTERS/Damir Sagolj)

  It is of course unclear as yet whether these human remains are Srebrenica people, but we'll know in a couple of months. However, as became clear in the Erdemovic and Krstic cases before the ICTY, many mass graves holding Srebrenica victims do exist. You could also have a look at the Dutch NIOD report. An integral Internet edition (less the annexes) in English is available on the Internet at http://www.srebrenica.nl/en/a_index.htm. On paper the NIOD report comprises 3,300 pages (plus 4,000 in the annexes), but the website has a search facility.

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 9:22 am
  This is just in.

  No comment whatsoever.

  Seeurope.netSeptember 27, 2002

  Conclusion Of Study For Trans-Balkan Oil Pipeline

  -Brown & Root Energy Services, a wholly-ownedsubsidiary of Halliburton (Cheney), an American company,completed the original feasibility study for thisproject. The pipeline - 36" diameter with a projectedthroughput of 750,000 barrels per day - will extendfor approximately 890 km reaching a maximum altitudeof approximately 1,000 meters in the Albanian segment.

  The Governments of the Republic of Bulgaria,Macedonia, and Albania and the Board of Directors ofAMBO LLC (Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian Oil pipelinecorporation) announced that the United StatesGovernment-sponsored feasibility study for theTrans-Balkan Oil Pipeline project has beensuccessfully completed and delivered to thecontracting parties.

  The United States Government's Trade & DevelopmentAgency provided significant financial support towardscompleting a full USD 1 M study, which updated andenlarged the project's original feasibility studydating from early 1996.

  The Trans-Balkan Oil Pipeline will carry crude oilfrom the Bulgarian Black Sea port of Bourgas to theAlbanian Adriatic Sea port of Vlorë. AMBO, which is aprivately-funded company headquartered in Pound Ridge,New York, is the developer of this USD 1.1 Bln.project.

  Together with the U.S. Government's South BalkanDevelopment Initiative (SBDI) and the Stability Pactprocess, the AMBO pipeline will become an integralpart of East-West corridor number 8 including highway,railway, gas, and fiber-optic telecommunicationslines. Specifically, the AMBO pipeline will permit oilcompanies operating in the Caspian Sea to ship theiroil to Rotterdam and the East Coast of the USA atsubstantially less cost than they are experiencingtoday.

  Brown & Root Energy Services, a wholly-ownedsubsidiary of Halliburton, an American company,completed the original feasibility study for thisproject. The pipeline - 36" diameter with a projectedthroughput of 750,000 barrels per day - will extendfor approximately 890 km reaching a maximum altitudeof approximately 1,000 meters in the Albanian segment.Each of these three countries is fully supportive ofthis project and has signed an InterministerialProtocol to confirm its backing.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 9:31 am
  Frank: "It is of course unclear as yet whether these human remains are Srebrenica people, but we'll know in a couple of months."

  A suggestion to the forensic crowd: when in doubt, check the right hand of the skeletal remains of the male victims of married age. Eastern Orthodox (Serbs)wear their wedding rings on the right hand. Muslims (Bosnians & Albanians) do not. No DNA needed there. Just brainstorming.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 12:41 pm
  

  It is along list besides Guernica, you know Frank, there is the alleged German atrocities committed in Belgium during the Great War (1914-18) which were highly publicised by the North American press, very "documented" with numerous drawings of Belgian babies hanging from the tip of the Germans bayonets. Like the Kuwaity maternity ward baby incubators allegations it did never happen.

  There is and it is still denied the Korean War massacre at No Gun Ri where several hundreds civilians were during the lenght of two days, machine gunned, bombed from the air and artillery while the refugees took shelter under a railroad concrete tunel, it did happen, but the US Army does not think so, not really so.

  The Germans in 1943 discovered a mass grave with Polish Army officers, several thousands, allegedly not killed by them the Nazi, but by the Soviets which had held this part of Eastern Poland in 1939 and until 1941 when Germany invaded the USSR. In Eastern Poland the Nazi as you surely know were engaged in genocide, large scale genocide. The Allies did not believe the German findings and at Nürenberg the charge was proven against them, then Gorbachov much later and by then a great friend and trustwothy of the West, took responsibility more than 50 years later, it was just a little note in the Sunday papers and history once again given a new meaning.

  Well I sincerely hope the Srebrenica "affair" can be clarified, by wedding rings or by internal clasified French intelligence reports. Who knows, maybe one day Mr. Labus (G17) may take responsibility for it; with time everything is possible and if you live long enough Frank you will see how what today is denied as an absolute impossibility tomorrow will be the enlighting truth.
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 3:49 pm
  Walter to clarify what I meant with my previous post:

  It is not that anybody disputes the fact that Serbs lived in every part of ex Yugoslavia it is that Croats and West disputed Serbian rights to have sovereign rights outside of Serbia. (Similar to Germans having sovereign rights in Germany and Switzerland too) Serbs outside of Serbia formed the state: "The State of Slovenians Croats and Serbs”.

  Now: I did not see the legal reason why Serbs outside of Serbia were denied rights to self-determination since in October 28, 1918 they achieved these rights and ceded them to "Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians" in December 1. 1918.If Yugoslavia felt apart the only normal thing was to cede sovereign rights back in the time when they constituted Yugoslavia.That would mean Serbia, Montenegro and "The State of Slovenians Croats and Serbs"

  (Croats did not want Serbs in Croatia - so first they throw them out from the Constitution, then Mesic read the message "Turci su davno otisli mozete ici.)" - "Turks have gone a long time ago - you can go."

  Gogol do you see why I would like to discuss this on this site (the war started around these issues). It has to do so much with the downfall of Yugoslavia, and Milosevic's trial.
  
  Pero Peric
  Canada

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 4:03 pm
  

  Andre: I'm not a forensic expert, but I have read several expert reports about the primary and secondary mass graves around Srebrenica. Of course wedding rings are used in the identification process, as are the ligatures found on many corpses. They are also an indication that the victim was of Bosniak ethnicity. But the identification process gets really difficult when remains are found in secondary graves (the captions with the pictures I referred to do not mention the sort of grave). Secondary graves were 'filled' with mortal remains from primary graves using heavy equipment such as shovels in attempts to cover up the 1995 crimes. Needless to say that bodies found in secondary graves are rarely complete, which makes your suggested 'method of identification' pretty useless in such cases.

  Mr. CG:

  I don't think I will live to see a Serbian president take responsibility for the genocide in Srebrenica. Born in 1951, I have witnessed Germany's struggle to come to grips with its past. It took 25 years before the German state took responsibility in any meaningful way for the war crimes it committed. It took several more years before the 'Auschwitz-Luege' (denying that nazi crimes such as the concentration camps had ever happened) was written into the Strafgesetzbuch (criminal law, § 130 - 3) and made punishable by up to five years imprisonment. Turkey denies its 1915 genocide on the Armenians even today, like most Dutch deny its army committed war crimes during the 1945-48 colonial war in Indonesia. But we must not forget.

  
  
  Frank Tiggelaar
  Amsterdam
  Holland

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 4:19 pm
  Since reading all the lies about the Serbian war crimes, I am now beginning to doubt that the Germans were committing all the war crimes they were accused of.

  I remember Gingrich who was a Republican Congressman returning from Bosnia and making a statement to the media. “All sides are committing atrocities.” Most of our Congressmen were saying the same thing. Now why is it that the Serbs are the only ones who are being tried?

  Frank acts as though he has something to lose if this does not pan out. I can tell him that I have kept many articles and pictures of the Serbs running out of the Krajina. Momentos for future Serbs with reminders to never forget.You cannot make anyone believe they did something they did not do.

  
  
  Kathryn Love
  SJC
  USA

• Monday September 30, 2002 at 6:58 pm
  

  Pero, I got you. This is part of the falsification of history which is so suitable when unjust claims have to be made.

  For example, zionism following the birth of national rights for nations which had lived until then as part of larger empires had to create a "historical" reason to claim a land which was inhabited by another nation, a people under the rule of another empire; the Ottoman.

  Nation states are difficult to explain if they are exclusive of other minorities and I would include Croatia and the religious state of Israel under such a category.

  In this context "Brotherhood and Unity"(an universalist ideology) was light-years ahead of the current set back: dividing to conquer trend called "globalism"

  Frank, the underlining notion in my previous comments reffering to disputed responsibilities to crimes against humanity is that exploiting the political value of the claims becomes far more important than establishing the truth itself. Consider ambassador's William Walker political exploitation of the Racak incident well before any half serious forensic investigation was or could have been conducted. The incident becomes a partisan issue and its relation to the truth becomes irrelevant. It is not unusual for this kind of incident to take place because without it the conduct of what is an absolutely unaceptable policy is impossible. Bismark once said "There are no permanent alliances, nor permanent friends among nations, only permanent interests"

  Finally Kathryn Love I think, is expressing concerns in the very same line. Consider once again the absolute neccessity of embolding your own nation by defending a just and true cause in order to face the devastation of war. It is clear that when the masses of Germans exclaimmed in horror and disbelief in May 1945 "We did not know, it can't be true" they were not in denial of anything they knew, because they did not know!

  The diference lies in between individual or collective guilt, which of course brings us to the question I asked same time ago in bold letters for everyone to see: "Do people deserve the leadership they get?"
  
  Gogol Charlemagne
  Conn. USA

• Tuesday October 01, 2002 at 12:48 am
  Frank: "I don't think I will live to see a Serbian president take responsibility for the genocide in Srebrenica."

  Neither wiill the rest of us. Or our children, for that matter. I hope.

  To move things in the proper order, we'll have to establish exactly what happened, who did what and when and for what purpose, and who knew what and when. We are nowhere near that.

  What we have is a recycled PR tale of 8,000 "men and boys" who "are missing" and therefore are "thought to have been executed" by the BSA. Note the exact recurrence of the obligatory wording in the U.S. press over the last 7 years - never any deviation: "thought (or 'believed') to have been executed" - old Pravda style.

  The order of the day is therefore a deconstruction of a public relations myth.

  The following basics can be established with reasonable certainty:

  1. The 8,000 is a PR number, intentionally inflating the number of the actual dead as to magnify the events to the degree of a "massacre." One has to depart from the actual number of bodies found, and only after establishing beyond doubt that the bodies in question are Bosnian, and not Serbian (given the missing Serbs in the area). That has not happened. In the U.S. if you have no dead body, you have no crime.

  2. Close scrutiny of the events leading up to Srebrenica forcefully suggest that the town was deliberately left defenseless by the Bosnian leadership after provoking BSA into an attack. The strategic timing of sacrificing Srebrenica on the eve of the planned offensives further evidences a close coordination between the U.S. plans in the region - the Krajina offensive, and the joint Muslim-Croat offensive, midwifed by Peter Galbraith and Anthony Lake (the "endgame" scenario).

  Conspiracy theories don't grow on trees. They exist because conspiracies exist.
  
  Andre Huzsvai
  U.S.