JURIST - Discussion Archive: Milosevic Trial

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Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic is on trial for war crimes in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. This marks the first time a head of state has been personally prosecuted before an international criminal court.

Is Slobodan Milosevic getting a fair trial?
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discussion archive
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 12:17 am
Mr. or Ms. Artisan or whoever you are,
Attacks from unknown people claiming secret knowledge are obviously aimed at hurting President Milosevic’s defense. You’ve attacked President Milosevic, you’ve attacked Jared Israel and you’ve attacked me. I’m glad to see that I am in such good company. :)
Carrying on a dialogue with some internet phantom who claims to be privy to President Milosevic’s private communications with his associates is a waste of my time. All you’re doing is regurgitating the same old accusations that Mr. Nice has already made about President Milosevic only pretending to be sick, but you’re doing it with the twist of pretending to be in a privileged position; shame on you for mocking a man while he is on his sickbed, but then again you want to see him dead and burried in a mass-grave with Bill Clinton and Franjo Tudjman, so why should I be surprised that you would mock him while he's sick?

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 1:10 am
OPEN LETTER TO THE DANISH PRIME MINISTER
Copenhagen, 25 September, 2003
Dear Anders Fogh Rasmussen,
May I draw your attention to the current position at the U.N. International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague, where the Prosecution's case in the socalled "trial" against the former President of The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, mr. Slobodan Milosevic, is now grinding towards its final halt, - after next to two years of proceedings.
On the eve of the Prosecution's case, new accusations have been levelled against mr. Milosevic by Belgrade authorities, to which he has responded with calm and clarity (1).
As you will probably have learned these ICTY proceedings were cancelled for most of this week (Tuesday 23 to Friday 26 September) due to the ill health of the accused; I have just been informed by mr. Krsljanin, the secretary of the SLOBODA/Freedom Association in Belgrade, that mr. Milosevic is actually deemed to be in a life-threatening situation.
The former president, I am told, suffers from malignant hypertension and his heart is damaged. Now in permanent risk of a heart attack or a brain-stroke his health and ability to stand the second half of the process cannot be recuperated under prison conditions.
The ICTY has flagrantly violated legal norms by failing to provide adequate medical attention for mr. Milosevic (2), by denying visitation rights to his closest advisors (3) and by threatening to deny him adequate conditions for the preparation of his defence case (4).
The recent decision of the Tribunal (2 September, 2003) to give mr. Milosevic only three months to prepare his defence case in the prison, which has been widely protested internationally, in my opinion serves to prove that the Tribunal unfairly aims at making the task of the former president impossible by depriving him of reasonable conditions and by increasing the threat to his life.
Mr. Milosevic has argued for two years of preparation in freedom, - a demand that I hereby wish to expressly support.
I urge you to use your good office to secure, that as from now mr. Milosevic be given a fair trial with respect for internationally accepted legal norms and under complete equality of arms.
yours sincerely,
Godfred Louis-Jensen, architect
References:
(1) President Milosevic's response, 17 August 2003
http://www.sloboda.org.yu/engleski/slobaE170803.htm
(2) Appeal by German doctors, 18 Sept. 2003
http://www.icdsm.org/more/gemdoctors3.htm
(3) Letter to ICTY by ICDSM, 26 Aug. 2003
http://www.icdsm.org/more/isolat.htm
(3) Statement by Duma Members, 12 Sept. 2003
http://www.icdsm.org/more/ruspar.htm
(3) Statement by U.S. ICDSM, 13 Sept. 2003
http://www.icdsm.org/more/icdsmus1.htm
(4) Statement by Russian ICDSM, 18 Sept. 2003
http://www.icdsm.org/more/ruscom180903.htm
c.c. SLOBODA/Freedom Association, ICDSM

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 1:59 am
Yes, Mr/Ms Artisan is right.
The truth Markovic will reveal to us is the following.
Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague is not the real Slobodan Milosevic. The real Slobodan Milosevic in on the bitches around the world. Hiding, embarassed, for not having realised how bad he used to be.
I know, I played poker with Markovic. Don't ask if he told me anything. I won't tell you, anyway.

ivko rig
it
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 2:29 am
Ivko Rig,
the ICTY Indictment charges mr. Milosevic (and others) with responsibility for deporting 740,000 Kosovo Albanians and for the murder of 340 others - not with "being bad".
The indictment is broken down into four counts, the charges being based on theories of liability (command responsibility and personal responsibility) - not on "how bad he used to be".
OK?

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 2:55 am
It is the tragedy of this forum that most of those who oppose Milosevic's performance have their keyboards dipped in venom. They are long on innuendo and short on facts. If Milosevic was guilty of even a fraction of what he has been accused of, he should be locked up and the key thrown away. There is absolutely nothing which is stopping the prosecution from obtaining evidence that would nail him, if present. Until now, the only charge which has a faint hope of holding up is that of disproportionate use of force in Kosovo against the separatist Albanians. Even this charge may collapse after Milo presents his side of the argument. As far as the Bosnia & Croatian portions of the trial are concerned, the allegations against him are too ludicrous to dignify with argument. Those war crimes committed during the latter wars by the Serbain side were without exception attributable to local Serb leaders, loose cannon paramilitaries and maverick opposition politicians who didn't believe Milosevic was ruthless enough in defending Serb interests.

Seshadri Raghavan
India
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 3:48 am
Seshadri Raghavan: Yes, - indeed!
Would there be any (valid) argument for the "humanitarian intervention" in Kosovo if you cannot hold up the charge of "disproportionate use of force" against the separatists?
Hang on, please!

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 5:43 am
Andy Wilcoxson The only "connection" A Artisian has is to his Internet Service Provider.
Seshadri Raghavan is exactly right "those who oppose Milosevic ... are long on innuendo and short on facts."
On to more important matters. I thought that the Tribunal had limited its investigation to events in the former Yugoslavia which occurred AFTER 1991.
Ante Markovic left Yugoslavia BEFORE 1991 and has spent the last decade working for an Austrian bank.
It seems to me that by calling people like Markovic the Tribunal may have shot itself in the foot.
Surely a precedent has now been set and the door is now open for President Milosevic to call people who conspired with, organised, and armed the secessionists in the former Yugoslavia. People who therefore bear much of the responsibility for the tragedies that followed.
When he was Yugoslavia’s President in 1990, the current Croat President, Stjepan Mesic, met the German Foreign Minister, Hans Dietrich Genscher, and the Pope. What about the Austrian and Hungarian governments which, according to some Serbian sources, smuggled weapons from the former East Germany to Croat and Slovene secessionists? Can President Milosevic now examine the events that occurred before the shooting started?

Michael Thomas
London
UK
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 6:08 am
Godfred, thank you for the lesson.
Hm, ... Godfred,
There is no fukcing inidcmtent in The Hague, no, no fukcing nothing but a plot. I am interested in that plot and I would like to learn about it. I believe that the content of the fukcing indcitemnt has got much to do with the plot. But to me this is not about "Is Milosevic getting a fair trial?" but "Why is Milosevic still at the fukcing trail?".
I carfully choose the style of expression.

ivko rig
it
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 6:20 am
(Something went wrong with my first posting - apologies)
Andy Wilcoxson
The only "connection" A Artisian has is to his Internet Service Provider.
Seshadri Raghavan is exactly right "those who oppose Milosevic ... are long on innuendo and short on facts."
On to more important matters. I thought the Tribunal had limited its investigation to events in the former Yugoslavia which occurred AFTER 1991.
Ante Markovic left Yugoslavia BEFORE 1991 and has spent the last decade working for an Austrian bank.
It seems to me that by calling people like Markovic the Tribunal may have shot itself in the foot.
Surely a precedent has now been set and the door is open for President Milosevic to call people who conspired with, organised, and armed the secessionists in the former Yugoslavia. People who therefore bear much of the responsibility for the tragedies that followed.
When he was Yugoslavia’s President in 1990, the current Croat President, Stjepan Mesic, met the German Foreign Minister, Hans Dietrich Genscher, and the Pope.
“The Pope and Genscher agreed with the complete break-up of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,” Mesic said
Mesic also admitted Tudjman's first Defense Minister Martin Spegelj had illegally ”brought in weapons from Hungary” for attacks on the former Yugoslav army and Serbs. “I pretended not to know anything,'”said Mesic.
What about the Austrian and Hungarian governments which smuggled weapons from the former East Germany to Croat and Slovene secessionists?
Can President Milosevic now examine the events that occurred before the shooting started?

Michael Thomas
London
UK
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 7:20 am
A mass grave was your invention Mr Wilcoxson. I said that it would be pleasing to see them tried all together dead or alive since they have much in common.
Of course Mr Wilcoxson you dont want to answer the question about why when funds are drying up that you advise people to send money to the prison.
Then let me answer my own question if nobody is interested (which is of course untrue although you all fein disinterest).
Mr Milosevic's seems to keep interesting company in prison. I will let the intellectuals amongst you work it out. His best buddy is an Albanian who killed Serbian civilians in the fields of Croatia. Now let me remind myself - wasnt Mr Milosevic supposed to protect those people in Krajina? Of course he abandoned them. Pity now that he smites the memory of the dead by befriending their killers. Thats disgusting and its disgusting if his supporters think this little fact doesnt matter. However, I think that at least one or two of you might be shocked.
Hands up who wants more? Drip drip
And do not fool yourselves about Mr Milosevic's medical condition. Its not serious Q - What does Mr Milosevic's medical condition and the search for Iraqi weapons have in common?
Oh and Mr Wilcoxson I dont much care for Mr Nice. And Mr Nice's claims are different to mine since. He believes that MR Milosevic gets sick after a difficult witness. I say that after so much research by the lawyers back in Belgrade its they who are exhausted. Thats why a pause is needed.
The current delay is not due to sickness but lack of money so dig deep folks. Put your money where your mouth is.

A Artisian
holland
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 7:41 am
A Artisian
I can not speak for others but let me start by telling you what I am not; Moose supporter. So by first stating that let me remind you why we have this discussion: we want fair trail. Not because we like or support Milosevic, but because we are establishing a world court that shall draw insights from ICTY. Do we really want a justice where laws and rules are changed as needed? (judge May) I want and as a citizen deserve facts, not insinuations. Does some of Milosevic behavior makes me sick? Of course it does. But I do NOT expect anything better from him. On there other hand I do expect higher level of justice from ICTY an western world. I do expect that people should be tried on the basis of facts and not allegations. Examples: well this trial had plenty I shall leave examples to somebody else. Bottom line is that Milosevic is hard liner and thief but does it make him a war criminal? Is he responsible for what his troops are doing -yes but following that rule so should Kissinger and Clinton (RTS CIVILIAN Television). Should he be responsible for every looney that takes guns and starts robbing and killing - no unless he lets him go away which so far is not the case. So bottom line truth before propaganda, facts before allegation. BTW should Clinton be charged for Waco Texas 1993? And in whose court?

Dakic Ana
Serbia
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 8:23 am
It is a utter waste of time communicating with A. Artisan....best ignored

AP V
NY
NY
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 9:02 am
Latest:
The Hague, 25 September 2003 P.I.S./PA131 MILOSEVIC CASE: NO TRIAL NEXT WEEK BUT HEARING SCHEDULED REGARDING PROSECUTION MOTION ON IMPLICATIONS OF THE ACCUSED’S RECURRING ILL HEALTH Please be advised that the Milosevic trial next week, Monday 29 September to Friday 3 October 2003, has been cancelled due to the ill-health of the accused. However, following the filing on 23 September 2003 of the "Prosecution Motion for a Hearing to Discuss the Implications of the Accused’s Recurring Ill Health", Trial Chamber III has ordered that it shall hear oral submissions of the parties, including the amici curiae, on Tuesday, 30 September 2003 at 10.00 a.m. in Courtroom I.

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 10:37 am
Godfred -- thank you for posting the open letter to your Prime Minister, I'm sure you wont mind if I use your format for my own letter to Chretien!
Regarding another poster's comments ridiculing Mr. Milosevic's access to research in Belgrade, I fail to see what's wrong with that. Research means research. Research means having information and I would like him to have all he can find even if people have to be paid to do the research.

Nikole J
Canada
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 10:43 am
I would like to know why it is illegal (as I have read here) for Americans to contribute to the defense of Milosevic. Is he not innocent until proven guilty according to the American system of justice? Would it be illegal for any American to contribute to the defense of any accused person in the United States?

Nikole J
Canada
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 12:40 pm
Ms Dakic I have some sympathy for your view. My view is that most people gathered behind Milosevic dont see this about a fair trial. They are an assortment of fruit cakes with axes to grind. They are led by those who decieve themselves almost as much as they decieve others. We have seen what happens when these self appointed leaders turns their guns upon each other. Its not a pretty sight and shows them for who they are. It puzzles and even amuses me when they are still held in high esteem.
The glowing terms that some here refer to Mr Milosevic make me reach for the bucket. Those people must be disabused of their simplistic interpretation of what kind of man we are talking about. Fine if they keep it to the level of a fair trial but I dont see that at all. I see talk of a NWO or the extreme right and left wing try to indoctrinate confused people with half truths.
Ridiculous ideas such as 'he was only defending Serbs' and other wishisms show a worrying sense of self delusion amongst some Jurist participants. It is high time that they get a grasp upon reality. If nobody else dares mention this fact then I must.
Bush, Clinton and all those like them like Milosevic and Tudjman are all made of the same stuff. Thats the truth and boy does it hurt for some people to hear that.
Mr Milosevic it would seem is going for some kind of world record for absenteeism. He will have serious trouble delaying for the week after next. Dont worry the message is getting through now.
NJ you fail to see whats wrong with bribing public officials to get access to secret state archives? Very interesting. Come come dont tell me that you thought Mr Milosevic was such a master of his subject that he knew the tiniest details. If and when those files are used against him I wonder if you will cry that the Yugoslav state should not provide the prosecution with secret archives? Still it will be up to DOS whether they finally sink Milosevic or not.
Come on folks roll the money in. Until it flows you wont get any more entertainment. Cynical or the hard truth? Half of you need somebody to love and the other half something to hate. Problem is hero's are for suckers. And those who hate - well it will kill you in the end.
Justice is certianly not the reason most of you are here.

A Artisian
holland
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 1:27 pm
A Artisian
I think you do have a problem: you can not see justice out of your hate for Milosevic. It is ok that you hate him so much but it is not ok to lose the sight of justice. Tell me where does ethnic cleansing stops? There are 250 000 Serbs cleansed from Kosovo after peace and democracy was established. There are 500 000 Serbs cleansed from Croatia. If you want exact numbers please refer to http://www.irinnews.org/webspecials/idp/pdfs/unhcr_2002.pdf. Explain to me why there is 38/1000 people refugees in Yugoslavia (page 12). Or look into http://www.refugees.org/world/countryindex/yugoslavia.cfm that states:
“At the end of 2002, Yugoslavia hosted about 353,000 refugees, a 12 percent decrease from 2001. Nearly all are ethnic Serbs, the largest numbers from Croatia (228,000) and Bosnia (121,000). Around 3,500 Macedonian refugees, mainly Albanians, lived in Kosovo at the end of 2002, while 100 refugees from Macedonia also resided in Yugoslavia-proper. Yugoslavia continues to host the largest number of refugees in Europe.
At year’s end, there were 262,000 internally displaced persons in Yugoslavia, including 234,000 displaced from Kosovo into Serbia and Montenegro and 27,500 displaced within Kosovo itself.
More than 32,000 Yugoslavs applied for asylum in other European countries during the year, representing a 16 percent increase from 2001. In 2002, Yugoslavs were the largest group of asylum seekers in Europe. The greatest number of Yugoslavs applied for asylum in Germany (13,800) and Sweden (5,900). Around 93,000 Yugoslavs had “toleration” status in Germany, and around 33,000 of them were non-Albanian Kosovars. About 8,600 Yugoslavs in Switzerland had “provisional admission” status. ...”
Where is a justice for those people?

Dakic Ana
Serbia
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 2:51 pm
Dear AP V of NY, NY,
For your unflinching determination to discourage any actual airing of disagreements on this “discussion” board, and for your single-minded resolve to dispatch from said board anyone whom you don’t like, or who challenges your positions in any way, it is my pleasure to announce that the Awards Cttee consisting of me has named you Official Jurist Poster Zombie.
There was much competition, many were the bovine drones of indignation when the actual thrust and parry of actual argument began to spoil the vibe of your useless Group Hug. But for sheer, willed cluelessness and intellectual torpour, you come out on top pal. Chapeau!
Since you and your fellow zombies are so deaf to the ordnance which lands here, I offer you a free closed-captioning service. A short while ago a new participant made their début on the board, by suggesting that SM deserves the worst fate the Prosecution could visit upon him and more, but also by doling out a “Big cheer for AW and JI for asking for dineros to be sent to the canteen fund. Cant think of better spoiling tactics.” .
Whereupon Wilcoxson, always the first gendarme to start swinging a truncheon when any riff-raff stray in, asked the new participant if s/he was connected to the Prosecution in some way. IOW, Wilcoxson not only found it plausible, but likely, and suspected, that someone connected to the OTP would be cheering the “fundraising” instructions from him and his mentor Massachusetts Fats, since this “fundraising” appeal could only be a “spoiling tactic” harmful to the prospects of SM’s defence.
This was highly revealing AP V, that Wilcoxson immediately suspected this connection. Do you see that? Think hard, but just don’t sprain anything else I’d feel bad. It’s highly revealing of what AW/JI/NV are really doing, as opposed to what they’ve been claiming to be doing w/respect to the cause you claim to care about. And it remains highly revealing absolutely irrespective of whether artisian really is or is not connected to the OTP. Because the significance lies in AW’s belief that there was this connection, and his reaction to it. And btw Wilcoxson sheepishly acknowledged on his website on Sept. 12th that $ sent to the canteen fund at the UNDU couldn’t go to defence work, then yanked this statement altogether, for which my cttee presents him the Maladroit Airbrush Award.
Since you care so much about the cause, you could have at least moved a muscle or fired a synapse to counter with arguments, instead of your standard “g’wan, beat it. We don’t like you. Now where were we, friends…?” You could have at least tried to parry by pointing out that the Tribunal and its apologists have scant moral grounds to point fingers about “unlawful” funding, since the ICTY is brazenly funded in violation of its own charter by parti pris Nato governments, corporations and NGO’s like Soros’. And you could have used as a reference an excellent article by Chris Black. You remember him. He’s the ICDSM lawyer you and your zombie friends were trying to jeer and catcall off the board a while back. Or you could’ve pointed out that the delivery of SM to the Tribunal was itself part of a massive bribe transaction which was neither subtle nor concealed, followed by Djindjic’s whining about how Washington was welching on its IOU. (the lesson there: COD always, net 30 days due never!). Or you could’ve wondered how it is that the “Butcher of Belgrade” so reviled by artisian and by the Western media, who’ve been trying and convicting him in their pages and on their airwaves for years, is now running out of defence funds, when this same Western media was telling us that the “Butcher” was just about the “richest man in Europe” and had billions stashed away in Cyprus bank accounts and so on. And now, with a defence team dwarfed in size by the Prosecution’s, he’s running out of money? Comment ça?
But you didn’t even try. Just what the fuck is it that makes you think your mindless insipid grazing has so much more right of place here than the interventions of others who at least try to use the circuitry between their ears? Do you get a USDA subsidy? Or are you just taking senile lessons from J.P. in Wisconsin?

P WP
Bas Canada
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 3:32 pm

These are voices of reason, truth and justice?
Ridiculous ideas such as 'he was only defending Serbs' and other wishisms show a worrying sense of self delusion amongst some Jurist participants. It is high time that they get a grasp upon reality.

Comment by A Artisian above.
Question: What is “reality”? Is the fact that since Milosevic’s demise in Kosovo some quarter of a million of Kosovo’s minority populations, mainly Serbs, have been driven from their ancestral homes and unable to return: is that “reality” or “a worrying sense of self delusion”?
However one can hardly blame Miss Artisian for being deluded while our Western so-called journalists depict “reality” for the masses by publishing comments about Kosovo like this below:
A great deal has been accomplished by the international community. Ethnic cleansing was stopped. The refugees have been able to return home. By Don Melvin, Cox News Service.

I imagine Miss Artisian has been eating too many “fruit cakes” something to which she may be partial as she is often referring to them: they can be very intoxicating if cook has been too liberal with the brandy.

Peter Taylor
Herts/UK
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 7:17 pm
Artisian wrote:
Justice is certainly not the reason most of you are here.
You got it right. The destruction of Yugoslavia and the criminalization of many of her leaders had nothing to so with justice and everything to to with relations between the powerful and less powerful nations.

Gogol Charlemagne
Shangri-La
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 7:40 pm
My concern is the people of Serbia and not NATO THE U.S. the E.U OR Artisian "ne jebem ih ni za suhu zljivu" . It is SERBIA and SERBIANS on trial and not Milosevic , he is just a scape goat , Serbia has to be saved from the infamy she has been brought by the U.S lead NATO aggression and Milosevic whether you like it or not has overshadowed any political wrongdoing with his defiance for 78 days to the infamous bombardment of the Jugoslav territory . And by this attitude he has my admiration and eternal gratitude . Zivila JUGOSLAVIJA¡ zivila SRBIJA¡ ZIVIO MILOSEVIC¡¡¡¡

M P
Rep of Panama
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 7:51 pm
Amen M P Rep of Panama
for those that know Serbian:
Otud leti jeroplan
Ja u rovu cucim sam
dignem pusku spustim gajku
pa mu jebem milu majku ja

Dakic Ana
Serbia
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 8:14 pm
P.W.P.,
Are you O.K. over there?
You say that "Wilcoxson sheepishly acknowledged on his website on Sept. 12th that $ sent to the canteen fund at the UNDU couldn’t go to defence work."
I thought that this was the same position you had. I thought that your position was also that the money sent to the canteen fund can't go for defence work. If that's what AW says too then where's the problem? Especially if the offending fundraising appeal has been removed?
Why are you insulting AP V? All he said was that this Artisan person should be ignored.
I agree with AP V., Artisan is a crazy man. He should be ignored.
Artisan is attacking Milosevic with secret insider information that only he has. How can you debate a person who can always pull some secret information out of his hat? What can be the point?
Either Artisan is working for the tribunal as part of a campaign to damage Milosevic's reputation and that of his supporters, or else he is just a crackpot who is trying to convey the false impression that he is an insider at the tribunal. Either way he's just a waste of time.

Neal Massy
Edmonton
Alberta, Canada
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 8:17 pm
Hey Guys !
- Da bich with the Armenian handle is nobody else but CARLA DEL PONTE............ _that line of "thinking" develops only with that high asignment ........

vytas abrutis
phila
PA usa
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 10:19 pm
Neal Massy,
I'm fine and ta very much for asking.
My position was and is that telling people to send $ for SM's defense to the prison acct was a deliberate act of wrecking and sabotage by a trio of four-flushing fraudsters who were trying to undermine the defense work because they'd been expelled from ICDSM for other wrecking and slander. Their response to their much deserved rout on the battlefield was to try to burn all the cornfields during their retreat. But they weren't burning my cornfield Neal, it was somebody else's and at least artisian could figure out whose it was, which puts artisian one up on you and AP V. This was Chris Black's position also.
Andy Wilcoxson's position was that sending $ to the prison acct was the "best" "most effective" way of aiding SM's defence. (But don't take my word for that, just dawn your reading glasses and go to the archives.) Then he and his pals were outed as saboteurs by Chris Black who pointed out that funds sent there would be useless for the defence b/c it was a canteen fund for internal prison use.
Andy knew he'd stepped in it there, and even though AP V and his fellow coma patients didn't grasp what any of this meant, writing it off as a "faction fight" which it wasn't, Andy knew that its significance would certainly be grasped in wider circles, particularly among the non-comatose population, and that it could follow him around. So he began to backpedal in his characteristically maladroit fashion, briefly posting - then removing - an addendum to his "fundraising" appeal at his website which admitted that $ sent to the prison could't be used for the defence.
When artisian dropped in to visit, Andy's 1st reaction was to think artisian was connected to the Tribunal, cuz it was all too plausible that someone trying to fry SM and "on the inside" would love Andy's "fundraising" gambit. We all know that people work for the OTP - whether artisian is one of them or not is a matter of complete indifference to me, because that's not where the significance of the exchange lies. Andy doesn't often reflect much before taking on an adversary, but this is useful cuz it often gives things away. Like in this case. As they'd say on The Sopranos, he ain't 'de brains o' 'dis outfit. He's heah fa' muscle.
And Andy's fat buddy in Boston, btw, who gives a whole new meaning to the expression "last true believer," is still posting on the websites he controls an "appeal" to send $ to the prison acct, for use by the "defense". Can you do the rest of this homework yourself?
And I bestowed that honour on AP V because telling people you disagree with or don't like to leave a discussion board or start their own site is a lame, sleazy, puerile, mentally lazy substitute for debate and argument. Those telling others how to vote with their keyboards should just vote with their own instead.

P WP
Bas Canada
Thursday September 25, 2003 at 11:19 pm
P.W.P.,
Who did A.W. slander to get himself expelled from the ICDSM? I've only been reading this website for the last month or so, and I don't have all of the background.
I vaguely remember a discussion about fundraising when I first got here, but I didn't really pay attention to it.
I don't know if I can believe what you are suggesting that anybody would be dumb enough to try to sabotage Milosevic in the way that you are suggesting A.W. did seems a little far-fetched to me.
Did A.W. think that Milosevic wouldn't be able to figure out what was happening and who was responsible for all of the money going to his canteen fund? As far as I know everything Milosevic says in court is recored on a transcript, couldn't Milosevic just come out and say not to send money to that account, and if he did say that wouldn't that expose A.W. as a liar?
A sabotage campaign of that nature seems doomed to failure, and doomed to certain exposure. I don't think anybody would knowingly be dumb enough to try it.
I find it more plausable that A.W. provided erronious information (? unknowingly) and then removed the information when he realized that it was flawed? But this is speculation, only Mr. Wilcoxson knows why he did what he did, I for one would appreciate an explanation from him.
I found this discussion through A.W.'s website, and judging by the articles that he writes about the trial you wouldn't think that he was in a conspiracy to sabotage Milosevic's defense.
But then again I don't know the background. I don't know what he did in the past. I don't know who he slandered to get himself expelled from the ICDSM.

Neal Massy
Edmonton
Alberta, Canada
Friday September 26, 2003 at 12:51 am
Ana Dakic wrote:'Tell me where does ethnic cleansing stops? There are 250 000 Serbs cleansed from Kosovo after peace and democracy was established.' Does this mean that she agrees with the OTP that there was ethnic cleansing by Serbia in Kosovo overseen by Milosevic? Because if this is so, then I believe that he is right to be in the dock, whether or not he is joined by Messrs Clinton and Blair. A. Artisian wrote:'Mr Milosevic it would seem is going for some kind of world record for absenteeism. He will have serious trouble delaying for the week after next.' Does he/she imply that he has control over his autonomous nervous system[which regulates BP and heart rate]? If so, Milo must be deeper into Yoga than any of us dreamt. I have to agree though with Artisian's comment:'My view is that most people gathered behind Milosevic dont see this about a fair trial. They are an assortment of fruit cakes with axes to grind. They are led by those who decieve themselves almost as much as they decieve others. We have seen what happens when these self appointed leaders turns their guns upon each other. Its not a pretty sight and shows them for who they are. It puzzles and even amuses me when they are still held in high esteem.' I myself lost much of the respect I had after the public washing of dirty linen. Personally, I knew nothing of Milosevic until the NATO bombing. It was only after seeing his demeanour and statements during the war and ever since that makes me want to believe that he has truth on his side. I will have no problems in changing my favourable opinion of him if evidence to the contrary is presented. What I have seen of him certainly places him on a far higher pedestal than white collar thugs like Clinton, Blair and other Nato leaders.

Seshadri Raghavan
India
Friday September 26, 2003 at 5:16 am
Dream on People of Milosevic. He will faid away in Jail. Kosovo is just an illusion for Serbs. Serbia hopefully will wake up one day from this deep dream.

you can guess
USA
Friday September 26, 2003 at 6:05 am

Nebojsa Malic continues the search for truth

Peter Taylor
Herts/UK
Friday September 26, 2003 at 6:06 am

HTML Correction
Hopefully
Friday September 26, 2003 at 7:01 am

Murdering thousands on the basis of false premises once may be unfortunate - especially for the victims - but twice is downright careless.
“This WMD fiasco has brought into question the judgment, competence and candour of the intelligence services and, indeed, of Mr Blair and senior ministers. As a matter of fact, not opinion, Britain went to war on a false premise. It hardly needs to be said how very serious and very damaging a conclusion that is.” Claims The Guardian today.

Although he has never been effectively challenged to defend his actions over Kosovo no doubt Blair would claim that in that conflict too he was also mislead by his intelligence services.
In Kosovo it was far worse. Britain went to war on the basis of out and out lies about non-existent Rape camps and Massacres of tens of thousands of Kosovars: even directly from the lips of Blair and his wife. And this in support of a terrorist insurgency including Mujahedin, backed by bin Laden’s al-Qaeda and financed by sex and drug trafficking.
The Guardian rides its High Horse in Iraq. In Kosovo it wallows in Operation Horseshit.

Peter Taylor
Herts/UK
Friday September 26, 2003 at 7:22 am
A nightmare keeps coming back on me: I am onboard the sinking ship HMS "Kosovo" - the captain has gone mad, there is no crew, most pumps are defunct, all buckets lost - but a few people are battling feverishly with small cups and teaspoons...
Through scores of panicking, helplessly screeming passengers I keep sight though of one single man who is calmly, still vigorously operating the only remaining pump...
Peter Taylor?

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Friday September 26, 2003 at 9:34 am
What happened to the JURIST "Milosevic Trial Discussion" postings from the period 1 September - 13 September incl., - which do not (yet?) appear in the discussion archive?
Nicole, I obviously do not mind if you use my "format" for an OPEN LETTER to Chretien! However among numerous improvements possible you may wish to adopt the strategy of copying the letter to other international bodies, such as e.g. U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan:
OPEN LETTER from the Irish Committee
OPEN LETTER (No. 5)
RE: PERSECUTION OF PRESIDENT SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC
The International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic (Irish Branch) joins with the United States National Section of the International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic, and many other National and International Committees, Organisations and individuals in raising protest against the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia's violations of human rights and international law in the treatment of President Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague, Netherlands.
In this politically motivated trial staged to direct attention away from NATO and the West's responsibility for the debacle in the Balkans victimisation of the former leader of Yugoslavia is becoming increasingly obvious well beyond the parameters of The Hague in the Netherlands.
The denial to Mr Milosevic of adequate medical attention given the parlous state of his health is in violation of the Geneva Convention and the European Declaration of Human Rights.
From simply the standpoint of common decency this denial is an outrage.
No medical attention in a life threatening situation. Visiting rights denied both to Mr Milosevic's closest advisers and, disgracefully, to members of his own family.
We demand release of President Milosevic for at least two years, for health recuperation and adequate preparation for the presentation of true facts on Balkan tragedy. Denial by the tribunal to take care of his health and to let him prepare his presentation is a clear sign of a desperate fear from the truth.
Clearly the purpose of these actions is to undermine Mr Milosevic's capacity to defend himself in the face of trumped up charges in this contemporary version of the Inquisition.
June Kelly,
Coordinator
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic (Irish Branch)
23 Prospect Court
Dublin Road
Mullingar
County Westmeath
Ireland
Tel/Fax: +044 45787
Email: cdsmireland@eircom.net
http://www.icdsmireland.org
FROM:THE COMMITTEE TO DEFEND SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC (ICDSM Ireland)
TO:
Mr. Theodor Meron, President, The Trial Chamber III: Mr. Richard May, Presiding, Mr. Patrick Robinson, Mr. O-Gon Kwon Office of the Prosecutor: Mr Geoffrey Nice, Ms Hildergaard Uertz-Retzlaff, Dermot Groome
Amici Curiae: Mr Steven Kay, Mr Branislav Tapuskovic, Mr Timothy McCormack
Mr. Hans Holthuis, Registrar
International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Churchillplein 1, 2517JW, The Hague, Netherlands. PO Box 13888, 2501EW The Hague, Netherlands.
Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights - Geneva World Health Organisation - Geneva
International Committee of the Red Cross - Geneva
Copies to:
Office of The UN Secretary General, First Avenue, 46th Street, NY 10017, USA
The Permanent Missions of the Members of the UN Security Council - New York
(the OPEN LETTER relayed as received by)

Godfred Louis-Jensen
Copenhagen
D E N M A R K
Friday September 26, 2003 at 11:21 pm
An open letter to the United States Government
Friday, September 26, 2003
To Whom It May Concern:
I am writing you concerning the use UN’s use of American taxpayer dollars to fund the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).
The ICTY is funded by the UN general budget, and by direct donations from governments, organizations, and individuals.
The United States Government funds the ICTY directly by making direct donations to the so-called “ICTY Outreach Programme” [1]
The United States Government also funds the ICTY indirectly through the payment of UN dues. According to a report from the Global Policy Institute, the United State’s dues payments account for between 22 and 25 percent of the UN’s general budget. Included in the dues is approximately $27 million paid annually for “war crimes tribunals” (i.e. the ICTY) [2].
While the United States Government takes the American taxpayer’s money and hands it to the ICTY, which according to its statute was “established for the prosecution of persons” [3]; it simultaneously prohibits American citizens, who believe in the innocence of a particular defendant, from donating their own personal funds to the defense of those persons who have been indicted by the ICTY. [4]
As an American citizen who believes in the concept of “innocent until proven guilty;” I categorically protest the prohibition of financial donations by American citizens to defendants accused by the ICTY. An indictment is not proof of guilt, it is simply an accusation, and it certainly can not be considered to be a valid basis for the imposition of sanctions by the Treasury Department.
I am a tax payer, and the U.S. Government is using my money to fund a foreign institution that I despise, and it threatens to prosecute me if I dare to give money that I earned to help somebody who I believe is being wrongfully prosecuted by that institution. This is downright un-American, and I protest it categorically.
The ICTY was illegally established by the UN Security Council, and it carries out its prosecutions in a manner contrary to international law and contrary to numerous human rights conventions. [5] In view of these facts I request that the United States withhold all dues from the UN until such time as the ICTY is abolished. I request an immediate end to any form of direct or indirect funding of the ICTY by the United States Government.
There is one more urgent issue that I wish to raise with respect to the ICTY. I request that the United States Government condemn the refusal of the ICTY to allow Slobodan Milosevic to have medical treatment administered to him by doctors of his own choosing. This is a right that is guaranteed to him by Rule 30(a) of the ICTY’s own Rules of Detention. [6]
Slobodan Milosevic’s health is in a dire situation. He urgently requires proper medical treatment. The ICTY’s refusal to follow even its own rules, and allow his doctors to administer medical treatment to him can only be viewed as despicable and inhuman.
Sincerely, Andy Wilcoxson
[1] http://www.un.org/icty/bhs/outreach/opintro.htm
[2] http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/unitedstates/2002/06status.htm
“Status of US Financial Obligations to The United Nations” - June 2002 - Global Policy Forum
[3] http://www.un.org/icty/basic/statut/S-RES-827_93.htm
UN Security Council Resolution 827 (1993)
[4] http://www.treas.gov/offices/eotffc/ofac/actions/20030529.html
Executive Order 13219 - June 26, 2001
[5] http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/illegal-tribunal.htm
Statement of the University of Belgrade - Faculty of Law professors, September 10, 2001
[6] http://www.un.org/icty/basic/detention/IT38_rev8.htm
* * * *
Sent to: President George W. Bush, Vice-President Dick Cheney, Rep. Ron Paul, Rep. Curt Weldon, Rep. Rick Larsen, Sen. James Inhofe, Sen. Larry Craig, Sen. Maria Cantwell, Sen. Patty Murray

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Friday September 26, 2003 at 11:34 pm
Letter writing is a good use of time and energy. Letters to Government officials and letters to the media.
What good is knowing the truth if you don't share it with others? How can we influence people and change the course of events if we only discuss among ourselves.
Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree by writing to my government, but maybe, just maybe one of them isn't a whore.
Thanks for the idea Godfred. Everybody should be writing letters or doing something constructive to try and influence people in power.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Saturday September 27, 2003 at 2:16 am
Neal,
You say that “A sabotage campaign of that nature seems doomed to failure, and doomed to certain exposure. I don't think anybody would knowingly be dumb enough to try it.”
It was exposed, and how much of a failure it’s been materially is not something I can appraise. But it’s important to understand how it got exposed, because when Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser of Emperor’s-Clothes first issued this bizarre “appeal,” it was couched in language which suggested that SM enjoyed the privileges of a regular bank account just like yours or mine, whose monies he could disburse as he chose, just like you or I could write a cheque to the guys who trimmed the hedge or replaced the furnace. How self-evident was it that this wasn’t the case? Well, look at the archive to see. It didn’t pass the smell test of the gentleman from Denmark, to his credit (even when Andy wondered “why on Earth” he wasn’t buying it), and it didn’t pass mine. But how many people who visit this board or the websites run by NV/AW/JI have dealings with the incarceration system or know how the financial and money access rights of detainees and prisoners work? Your guess is as good as mine.
Chris Black, rightfully scandalized, pointed out how these things do work and thereby exposed this “appeal” as the fraud that it was. Why wouldn’t any genuine supporter of SM’s cause be grateful for this and interested in its significance? Again, I refer you to the archive where you can gauge the level of gratitude and interest for yourself, and see how effectively this story’s meaning penetrated the stultifying clubby groupthink. I agree one shouldn’t underestimate the Man in the Street, but we also need to let the facts take us where they take us. Sadly, there are reasons for why these great cyber-bashers of the N.W.O. and ICTY didn’t get it and just treated it all as unwelcome background noise, just as there are reasons why “Baywatch” was in the Top 10.
Once Chris Black pointed this out, it became a simple exercise in common sense to conclude that objectively, this was a wrecker operation which could be nothing but harmful to the campaign to fund SM’s defence. And b/c it only required common sense, people with political perspectives as different as mine and artisian’s could arrive at this same self-evident conclusion.
Beyond the objective effects, which hardly need debating, you rightly raise the matter of motive. What are the available explanations? One is that this “appeal” was launched by people in the service of somebody else, say, the Power, Carla, Nato, etc, since that’s who benefits. This would mean they’re “agents,” which btw is what they brand anybody who crosses them. I’ve been very careful not to claim this, b/c unlike Andy and the Fat Man, I would never claim that someone was an agent unless I’d amassed conclusive proof, and had all my ducks in a row. So it’s a possibility, and nothing more at this time. My piastre’s worth is that a psychological explanation is more likely. There are personality types who are only content in a "movement" or org so long as they feel they're in control and are getting their way. As soon as control slips or they don’t get their way, they're prepared to wreck everything as a way of acting out their sour grapes. Their psychological problem overwhelms any objective consideration of the consequences for the cause they claim to care about. And so NV’s and JI's response to their rout on the battlefield was to burn all the cornfields during their retreat. And what of AW in this? Well, he sure didn’t miss the cue to start beating the drums for this “appeal.” Say JI/NV knew from day one that the “appeal” would send $ into a black hole and be useless and harmful (how could they not have? NV’s been to the UNDU) but AW didn’t, then got wise too late as usual, saw himself as something of a patsy in the piece, then gets worried and tries to do damage control. This would explain: a) why to this day JI and NV have never retracted their claim that the “best” way to support SM’s defence is to send $ to the canteen fund, while between them they control at least 3 websites (just how plausible is it that any genuine supporter of SM’s cause would not want to rectify this immediately? This disinfo’s been published for weeks! Come on!) b) why Wilcoxson put up that addendum admitting in effect that Chris Black was right about the canteen fund, then pulled it (cuz how the hell do you get yourself out of a stinker like this, esp when you care more about manicuring your political image than about the cause of SM, which you’re cynically using as a hobbyhorse?), c) why Wilcoxson has to date answered neither your nor artisian’s very reasonable questions on this matter, d) why Wilcoxson’s 1st response to artisian is not the normal defensive one you'd expect from someone convinced he's doing good for the cause he claims to care for, like saying, "we posted that appeal to help finance the defence, and this is outrageous disinfo from this person artisian, whoever THAT is.... ". There was nothing like that. Just a suspicion - immediately expressed publicly without considering all the implications - that he *was* being high-5'ed by the Power for his sabotage, e) why, on the icdsm.com site controlled by JI, and supposedly devoted to SM's cause, time has stood still since Vidovdan three months ago, even though there’ve been a number of very important developments in SM’s case at The Hague, and numerous public statements, of which the Danish gentleman has kept us up to date. What's your plausible take on that?

P WP
Bas Canada
Saturday September 27, 2003 at 2:53 am
Slobodan Milosevic removed Ramsey Clark from the post of ICDSM co-President.
Here is the source of my information:
http://emperors-clothes.com/dispute/3way.htm
Game, set, match.
This bullshit is over. Listen to the tape.

Andy Wilcoxson
Washington, United States
Saturday September 27, 2003 at 10:11 am
Andy, They have removed the link. I guess there is somthing they would like to hide or they are just 'editing'.

Dan B
Canada