Milosevic Transcript 2002-05-07

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Tuesday, 7 May 2002

[Private session]

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[Closed session]

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[Open session]

MR. NICE: We will let the Chamber know in due course whether there's any prospect of calling the last witness that we've been considering.

I think we're now in open session.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

MR. NICE: Wait for the witness for one moment, please. Before Mr. Saxon calls the next witness, there are a couple of administrative things I would like to deal with.

First, as the Chamber will no doubt have noted, in his cross-examination yesterday, it's now clear that the defendant was using materials, in particular the interview of Dr. Rugova that had been served on him by the Prosecution, and I can inform the Chamber they were served on him as long ago as January of this year. So he's now making use of and having access to those materials. But it's more important that I remind the Chamber that there were three press articles concerning Dr. Rugova ⁴⁴⁴³ that the Chamber thought it prudent to lay before you, notwithstanding the fact that they haven't been formally dealt with by the accused in cross-examination.

Now, those three press articles were three of 39 press articles that were served on him in January. They weren't served as exculpatory under 68. They were served at that time -- he referred to three or four out of 39. They weren't served under 68. They were served at a time when an approach was taken to public material and our obligation to serve public material, which is not a position we currently hold. So he was served more material than it was our duty to serve and that we would currently serve. However, he got the 39 press articles. It may be thought fairer simply to provide the Chamber not just with the four, three or four, but with all 39, because no doubt there was a selection made. We're in the Chamber's hands. We can produce just the four or we can produce all 39 which were the relevant press interviews of the witness.

JUDGE MAY: It might be sensible to produce the four rather than produce more paper; for you to have a look at it and see if there are any other articles that you would have produced in re-examination if the witness had been asked about those four.

MR. NICE: Yes. That seems very sensible. We'll do that.

JUDGE MAY: Then we would -- we will take the bundle when you've got that ready.

MR. NICE: Very well, Your Honour. We'll deal with that. The second matter is a couple of additional exhibits that were ⁴⁴⁴⁴ wanted. There's the constitution of Kosovo which we now have copied. Can that be distributed. I think a number may have already been allocated to it, I'm not sure.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I'm not sure this has been exhibited. We've had the constitution of the FRY, and I think we've had the constitution of Serbia, but I don't think we've had the constitution --

MR. NICE: No, we certainly haven't. It may be we had allocated a number to it because I know His Honour Judge Robinson wanted it yesterday and I said I'd produce it, but if not --

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours' this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit number 136.

MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, the accused, I think, was raising the absence of a Serbian version of the education agreement, Exhibit 127. We have now managed to locate a Cyrillic Serbian version of that agreement. May that go as part of 127 rather than have its own number? Your Honour, that's all I desire to raise at the moment, save simply to remind the Chamber that if K4 is available on Thursday, the question of 92 bis statements processed here will then fall for determination with that witness.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is no constitution. It says here Kacanik and Pristina. That is an illegal document brought in by a group of Albanian separatists who could not have had any legal effective value in the system of Serbia and Yugoslavia.

JUDGE MAY: We've heard the evidence about it, and it was admitted ⁴⁴⁴⁵ because it was asked for, but we know what was said about it. Now, can we have a witness, please?

MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls Mr. Fadil Vishi.

JUDGE MAY: I should say that before he comes in, we will return the last -- the papers we had in relation to the last witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just ask, before the witness walks in? You mentioned a new list of witnesses dated the 2nd or 3rd of May, and the last one I have is dated the 29th of April, and it was my understanding that we would have programmes for at least one week, and now I see that they are changing it yet again. Can we establish the following kind of practice; that we at least know for one week what the witnesses will be?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. That's the -- that should be the practice and is. Occasionally, inevitably, there have to be changes, but they're to be kept to a minimum.

Perhaps the Prosecution could see that there is this document of the 2nd of May, if it hasn't been, is served on the accused.

MR. SAXON: Yes, we'll do that as soon as we can, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness come in.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat. ⁴⁴⁴⁶

WITNESS: FADIL VISHI

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Sir, is your name Fadil Vishi?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Vishi, were you born on the 1st of November, 1961?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you born in the village of Dubrava in the municipality of Kacanik in Kosovo?

A. Yes.

Q. And is the village of Dubrava about eight or nine kilometres to the north-west of the town of Kacanik?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Vishi, in October of 1999, did you give a statement to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor regarding the events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo earlier in 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 30th of January of this year, in the village of Dubrava in the municipality of Kacanik, were you provided with a copy of the statement that you made in October of 1999 in the presence of representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the Registrar?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time, did you attest that the copy provided to you was true and correct? ⁴⁴⁴⁷

A. Yes.

Q. Subsequently, during discussions with members of the Office of the Prosecutor, did you indicate that there is an error in your statement?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to read to you the paragraph where that error occurs. It's on page 4, the fifth paragraph of the English version.

MR. SAXON: For the benefit of the accused, I believe it's on the top of the last page of the Serbian version.

There is a paragraph that says the following: "From the convoy, the soldiers arrested six persons. The others went to Macedonia. Two of these six persons were released a short time after, but the four were sent to Ferizaj, where they were tortured in the police station."

Q. Should that sentence actually end with the words, "tortured in the coffee bar called Pranvera," rather than "police station"?

A. That's how it should be.

Q. All right.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with that correction made on the record, I would now offer that statement into evidence under Rule 92 bis. And I will also, once you have a copy of the statement, I will point out to you where the correction should be made.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit number 137.

MR. SAXON: The correction that we just made was on page 4 of the English version, in the middle of the page, the fifth paragraph starting from the top, in the very last sentence. Rather than saying, "police ⁴⁴⁴⁸ station," it should say, "the coffee bar called Pranvera." And in the Albanian version, it is on page 6, in the middle of the page. Your Honours, Fadil Vishi is a Kosovo Albanian Muslim from the village of Dubrava in the municipality of Kacanik. From about the New Year of 1999, according to his statement, the village of Dubrava was more or less isolated. The population was not allowed to leave the village, and the telephone and electricity was cut off. After awhile, basic supplies became limited, and the villagers were forced to smuggle necessities during the night.

On the 25th of May, 1999, Serbian forces surrounded the village of Dubrava. The witness woke up his neighbours, and they all gathered by the village school. Mr. Vishi fled and watched what happened in the village from the woods above. Most of the population left on tractors and trailers and started to drive towards Macedonia. After awhile, the convoy was stopped and six men were arrested.

In the evening, the witness could see that his house was burning. Rrahim Vishi and Milaim Vishi were found killed close to the witness's home. About 50 metres from the witnesses home Ali and Xhemail Tusha were found killed.

On the following day, 26 May, 1999, in addition, the villagers found the bodies of Hajrush Qorri and his son and daughter. They also found the body of Rexhep Qorri. The body of Sylejman Gurri, who had been captured by VJ soldiers several weeks earlier, was found in the woods about two kilometres from the village.

The witness remained in the forest until the following day and ⁴⁴⁴⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁵⁰ then walked 24 hours to Macedonia.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] In your statement given on the 18th of October, 1999, you say literally -- this is on page 1 of the statement, I'm going to quote it: "We lost every freedom. We totally lost our freedom. From last New Year, we were not allowed to leave the Dubrava area. The Serbs took out, cut off the electricity and the telephone and we had no possibility to get information from the outside world. We didn't know anything about what was going on in Kosovo before the KFOR troops came in June 1999."

Are these your words? Is that the way it was?

A. Very true.

Q. When you say that they did not allow you to leave Dubrava from the last New Year, do you mean from the 1st of January, 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. That is to say that none of the Albanians from the village - it was a purely Albanian village, right? - could not leave Dubrava all that time; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And how was it that the Serbs prevented you from leaving the area of Dubrava?

A. They didn't want us to leave the village because -- we didn't want to leave the village because it was our place.

Q. So you did not want to leave the village. Did I understand you ⁴⁴⁵¹ correctly?

A. That's right.

Q. You say that it was the Serbs who prevented you from leaving the Dubrava area. So what is correct; did the Serbs prevent you from leaving the Dubrava area or was it you who did not want to leave the Dubrava area?

A. Even if we'd wanted to leave, we didn't have anywhere to go because the entire village was encircled on all sides by military forces, by Serbian military and police forces. And that's what the situation was like.

Q. Did somebody tell you that you were not allowed to leave the Dubrava area?

A. We had no kind of contact with the Serbian forces.

Q. Well, how did you see them, then, when you didn't have any kind of contact?

A. We understood that the Serbian forces were somewhere one kilometre from us, and they were stationed at the factory in Silkapor, and they moved on the road that leads to the border and to Skopje and, on the other side, on the road to Tetovo. And there were forces positioned in what are called the Sharr mountains.

Q. All right. That means that the forces were facing the border with Macedonia; is that right?

A. They had nothing to face up to on the border because nothing happened on the border. They were aimed against the populous.

Q. But you spent all of two months, as you had put it, in their immediate vicinity, and they didn't do anything to you. Is that right or ⁴⁴⁵² is that not right?

A. It's not quite like that, because several times we were maltreated. They provoked us in various ways. And on the 12th of March, they shelled from the Silkapor factory, aiming at our village and at a part of the woods where they damaged the house of an Albanian.

Q. And how was it that they maltreated you, when you said only a minute ago that you did not have any contact with them whatsoever for all of two months?

A. I repeat, we didn't have any contact, but they communicated with us in their own way, and they had their own way of doing things, and with their military vehicles and their equipment. They did what they wanted.

Q. This is not clear to me. You did not have any contact. That means that you didn't have any contact with them, and they didn't have any contact with you. So then how did they communicate with you in their own special way?

A. I didn't say that we communicated, but we were surrounded by Serbian forces, and we didn't dare leave the village. But they shelled us, shelled our village on the 12th of March, and a stretch of the woods where there were some houses.

Q. As for this shelling on the 12th of March, why did you say nothing about it in your statement? You mentioned that something happened on the 25th of May but not in March.

A. In my statement, I spoke specifically about the kidnapping of various people that was committed by your forces, the kidnapping of three people. These forces kidnapped three people. ⁴⁴⁵³

Q. Please. Please. First you say that you had no contact during the first two months, and now -- that is to say, from the New Year onwards, as you had put it, from the 1st of January, 1999. And now you are introducing yet a new piece of information, that you were shelled by them on the 12th of March. Please think about this. What is the truth out of the two? Because both cannot be true.

JUDGE MAY: That is -- that is not a fair comment. The comment which you make is that they -- there is nothing in the statement about the shelling of the 12th of March, and the witness said, in answer to that, that he spoke specifically about the kidnapping of various people and that that was what his statement was concerned with. So to say there's --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon? But now during the examination-in-chief, he says things that were not dealt with in his statement, and he certainly would have had to have included that in the statement had this actually have happened. So that should be clear.

JUDGE MAY: Why -- Mr. Vishi, since the point is made, why did you not include this incident of the 12th of March in your statement?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought of including only the part of my statement which was related to kidnapping and the offensive in which these were killed, while there were -- there are other witnesses who can testify to everything else that happened.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. When you say that you thought that you should include only the part of your statement that was related to kidnapping, does that mean that you had given a broader statement and that this particular statement is ⁴⁴⁵⁴ only a part of that longer statement?

A. My statement, which is in front of us, is mostly about the kidnapping and the killing of these people and the course of the offensive against the village on the 25th of May.

Q. Is that your comprehensive statement then, not only a part of it?

A. Excuse me, I don't understand what you mean by that.

JUDGE MAY: To put it more simply: Did you make any other statement, or is this the only one that you made?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement which I've prepared for you here is about the kidnapping and the 25th of May.

JUDGE MAY: The question is: Did you make any other statement?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. When was it that Serbs, as you had put it, cut off your electricity and all communications?

A. From the beginning of 1999, we were without all these things.

Q. All right. So from that moment, from the beginning of 1999 until June, your village had no electricity; right? And there were no exceptions to that?

A. Yes.

Q. It is your claim that the soldiers from the Sharr mountains were deployed in such a way that they were able to see every little move that you'd make?

A. That's right.

Q. How far away were they from you? They were on Sharr, on the ⁴⁴⁵⁵ mountain of Sharr. So how far away was that?

A. The truth is that we didn't go deep into the mountains. It was -- it was only about four kilometres away where they were positioned. Every day they passed in front of the village, between two roads that lead to Skopje and Tetovo, and were able to see everything.

Q. When you say every move that you'd make, are you referring to the villagers, to all the inhabitants of that village when you say "you"?

A. I'm talking about the army and the police that you led.

Q. I'm asking you about what you said, that from there they could see every move you'd make, you. Every move you would make. When you say every move that you would make, is the "you" the villagers?

A. I'm talking about the Serbian military and police forces.

Q. All right. And is it correct what you said, that from these positions, they could stop anyone who would be coming to that area and leaving it? Is that your assertion?

A. I said that from that time, we never moved from the village.

Q. But you say that they could stop everyone, anyone who would want to leave the village or come into the village. That was your assertion.

A. If we had gone out, that's the sort of thing they would have done, from my experience of other places. But we didn't go out.

Q. And what do you mean that from a four-kilometre distance, as you had put it - you say that that's how far away they were from you - that they could stop anyone who would want to come into the village or get out of the village?

A. I said the distance where they were positioned was four kilometres ⁴⁴⁵⁶ away, but their movements brought us -- brought them closer than a hundred metres along the roads going to Skopje and Tetovo and from the factory at Silkapor, which is -- which is not more than one kilometre away, as the crow flies, from our village. The army was positioned with tanks all this time, pointing towards our village.

Q. However, you claim that after the New Year, due to a shortage of supplies, the villagers started going out during the night, going shopping, and smuggling goods. Is that correct or not?

A. The goods were brought by various people. And when these goods were brought, there were unfortunate incidents such as the kidnapping of three persons on the 5th of May.

Q. Well, tell me, then, how is it possible that people go out shopping, that they come back to the village and all the rest you've said, when you say before that that the Serbs prevented you from moving outside the village or coming back into the village?

A. I said before that we didn't leave the village, but -- but these things like groceries were brought by somebody called Ramadan Lami, who later, with his son, was kidnapped from his own home. And Ramadan Lami's body was found near the Silkapor factory. It was totally decomposed.

JUDGE MAY: Can you just concentrate on the questions, and we'll get on more quickly.

The point -- the point that was being made is if it was right that the Serb forces had surrounded the village so that people couldn't get in and out, how was it possible for these goods, these groceries, to be brought in? That's the question. Perhaps you can help us as to that. ⁴⁴⁵⁷ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁵⁸

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is quite true. The person who brought these groceries lived in a village outside Dubrava called Kacanik i Vjeter where there were Serbian families also living, but under what agreement he was able to work, we don't know.

Finally, he himself was killed.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In your statement, you used the word "smuggling"; isn't that right?

A. We don't know how he brought these things, but he did bring these things. How he did it, only he knew.

Q. I am asking you whether you used the word "smuggling" in your statement. Isn't that right?

A. This is a kind of trade which he was involved in.

Q. But did you use the word "smuggling" in your statement when speaking about him because that's what he was involved in?

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of his statement. Just a moment, Mr. Vishi. We'll have a copy of the statement and you can see it. Have you got it? He's got one.

Well, Mr. Vishi, have a look at the first page, and in the English, seven paragraphs -- the seventh paragraph. It says: "The situation for food and other needed goods got worse after New Year, and the local people started smuggling goods into the villages from the outside."

Can you find that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. ⁴⁴⁵⁹

JUDGE MAY: What I think -- what I think you're being asked is: What did you mean by "smuggling" in the statement?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in the sense that in some cases -- that mainly groceries were brought by the above-mentioned person.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Yes. But why did you call it smuggling? What else did he bring in, apart from the groceries? You said foodstuffs and other goods. What were the "other goods"?

A. I didn't call it contraband, but I said that he went in for trade. He brought these things, and he sold them in the village, because he didn't belong to our village.

Q. All right. But according to what you wrote in your statement, does that mean that this man, Ramadan Lami, was a smuggler, in fact?

A. I can't say that he went in for contraband, because in the end, he himself suffered badly, suffered the consequences.

Q. You're talking about an attack on the village after which, as you say, the disintegrated body of Ramadan Lami was found by the villagers. Decomposed body. Is that right?

A. That's right. His body was found after the offensive against the village of Dubrava on 25th of May. Several friends of mine found his body and took it away and buried him in his own village of Kacanik i Vjeter.

Q. And how many days later was the body found after the attack on Dubrava?

A. His body was found three or four days later.

Q. Does that mean that before that attack, the attack that you're ⁴⁴⁶⁰ talking about, that he died before the attack?

A. That's right, because Ramadan Lami, after 5th of May, when the Serbian military and police forces kidnapped three people, he no longer came to our village. His -- only his body was found after 25th of May. Nobody can know when exactly he was killed except for your forces under your leadership.

Q. And what makes you assume that he was killed by our forces?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, could he perhaps have been killed by somebody who wanted to loot him because he was a smuggler? Was there that possibility too, that somebody wanted to steal the goods from him?

A. I don't think so, because no Albanian could penetrate there because, as I said, military forces had been deployed there for quite a long time. This is the truth.

Q. Yes, but he wasn't found dead where the soldiers were deployed. He was found elsewhere.

A. He was not found elsewhere. He was found near the Silkapor factory, exactly where the soldiers were stationed.

Q. What do you mean when you say "near"? How near?

A. He was exactly in the place where the forces were positioned.

Q. That means that you assume that our forces had killed him and left his body to decompose there for several weeks in that place where it was found; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. All right. And who attacked your village and when? ⁴⁴⁶¹

A. Our village was attacked on the 25th of May, at about 3.30 in the morning. The village was attacked by Serb military and police forces. From all sides, the village was cut off.

Q. The village was cut off from all sides, you say. And who did the Serbs attack from all sides in your village?

A. As I said, at about 3.30 in the morning, we had some guards, local people who were unarmed, who were keeping vigil of the village. They informed us that the village was encircled. And right away, and me personally, along with some other friends, we informed our co-villagers of the fact that we were encircled. We came to the -- we agreed that the villagers should meet in some place, gather there and see what we could do to go over to Macedonia out of fear that something else occurred in other places where the whole population was massacred.

Q. And you then started along the road to Macedonia; is that right?

A. Not me personally, but people got on tractors, trailers, whatever they had, men, women, and children, and set out. We stopped for awhile on the road, and then they were ordered that persons from 18 to 60 should stay behind in the village. And then the convoy was allowed to continue. But after another kilometre of journey --

Q. All right. We'll come to that later on. That's not what I was asking you now. But let's go back to the events of, as you say, the 5th of May.

On that evening, you set off towards the main road to buy some cigarettes; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right. I didn't go to the main road, but I went near ⁴⁴⁶² Lepence river.

Q. To buy some cigarettes?

A. I went to the house of someone called Ramush Dogani, to ask him to bring me some cigarettes.

Q. All right. What time was that?

A. It was around 9.00.

Q. In the evening or in the morning?

A. In the morning. In the morning.

Q. And where were you coming from?

A. I was coming from my own house.

Q. But as I've just understood you, you didn't go to buy the cigarettes from Lami but from Ramush Dogani; is that right?

A. Yes. I went to Ramush Dogani to ask him that when Lami comes with his goods, he should set aside for me these cigarettes.

Q. But you said that you reserved two kilogrammes of cigarettes.

A. It is wrong, because I wanted to say two stacks of cigarettes, cartons of cigarettes.

Q. It says here two kilogrammes.

A. It may be a mistake.

Q. Well, your statement was read back to you, and you were asked a moment ago by the Prosecutor whether everything that is said in the statement is correct, and you didn't indicate that that was a mistake of any kind.

A. I don't consider it any big mistake.

Q. Well, if it were two kilogrammes, I would have to ask you who you ⁴⁴⁶³ needed two kilogrammes of cigarettes for.

JUDGE MAY: Well, he says it was two cartons. So let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Tell me, who is Sylejman Gurri?

A. Sylejman Gurri is the son-in-law of a cousin of mine.

Q. Is he from Dubrava?

A. He's not from Dubrava. He's from Nik village.

Q. What did Sylejman Gurri do?

A. Sylejman Gurri, he was a sick person. He didn't do anything.

Q. You said he was together with two people whom you didn't know. Is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And those two people weren't from Dubrava; right?

A. No, they weren't from Dubrava. They were from Biqefc village.

Q. From which village?

A. Biqefc.

Q. They were two men, is that right, two males?

A. They were two young men, my age.

Q. Were they armed?

A. Absolutely not.

Q. And you saw three people wearing uniforms arresting Sylejman; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. That's what you saw with your own eyes; is that right? You saw ⁴⁴⁶⁴ him actually being arrested?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Did anybody else see that take place?

A. There were two other persons who were with me who saw it.

Q. What are their names?

A. I said earlier I don't know their names.

Q. All right. Let's go back to what we were saying. You set out on the 25th of May, when the soldiers, as you say, encircled the village, surrounded the village, and you said that you personally woke up everybody in the neighbourhood and told them to get their tractors and set out for the Macedonian border; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Did they listen to you? Did they do what you said?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. What kind of authority did you have among those people for them to adhere to what you said straight away?

A. I was the leader of the village.

Q. So you were the leader of the village, the elder; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Did you take part in the KLA?

A. No.

Q. Did you help the KLA?

A. We have supported it.

Q. Why did you tell the people to leave the village and go to Macedonia? ⁴⁴⁶⁵ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁶⁶

A. We told them first to get together at the school of the village and then, after talking this thing over all together, they all agreed that the best choice for us - for them - would be to leave.

Q. All right. And why weren't you in the convoy but, as you say, with a friend you were watching from the woods from a considerable height and seeing what was going on?

A. Yes. But if I were -- if I were part of the convoy, I wouldn't be here today to testify to what I'm saying.

Q. And which six people from the convoy were arrested by the police? Do you know their names?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. You claim that two were let go, and the four others were taken away, and according to the correction you made, to the coffee bar. First of all you said to the police station, and then you said that it was in fact the coffee bar. So why would the police take them off to the coffee bar?

A. Two persons were let go after awhile because they were of a young age, whereas the others, they didn't let them go. And they took them to Ferizaj, to a cellar of a coffee bar, where they maltreated them in most various ways.

Q. And what happened to them?

A. Then on 29th of May, they released them from that place.

Q. So they released them four days later. Is that it?

A. Yes, after a lot of maltreatment.

Q. All right. Who did you stay in the forests with? ⁴⁴⁶⁷

A. I was with a cousin of mine.

Q. And you say that on that day, in the evening, as you said, you noticed that your house was on fire. Is that right, that that's when you noticed this?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you say that the people who tried to put out the fire -- so this was on the 26th of May, was it, is that right? -- that you noticed the bodies of Muharrem and Rrahim Vishi; is that right?

A. Milaim Vishi and Rrahim Vishi are their names.

Q. How come they were in your yard?

A. On the 25th of May -- excuse me. On the 5th of May, half an hour before Sylejman Gurri was kidnapped, these two persons were also kidnapped, as many eyewitnesses said. And up to the 25th of May, nobody knew anything of their whereabouts.

Q. All right. Well, that's precisely why I'm asking you, because that's what it says in your statement. In your yard, on the 26th of May, when you say they disappeared on the 5th of May. So for a full 20 days. And then 20 days later, they appeared, dead, in your yard.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Were they members of the KLA?

A. No.

Q. So they disappeared on the 5th and turned up on the 25th in your yard, dead; right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Were there any members of the KLA in your place at all? ⁴⁴⁶⁸

A. No, there weren't.

Q. Is it true that the headquarters of the so-called 162nd Kacanik Brigade were located in your village? Is that right or not?

A. That is not true. The headquarters was stationed, the army existed, but not there in the mountains, a long way from the village. And it was not in that territory that belonged to Dubrava.

Q. How far from the village?

A. Three kilometres.

Q. So nearer than the army was. The army, you said, was at four kilometres distance.

Now, the two men that you said disappeared on the 5th of May, did they go to join them on the 5th of May?

A. This happened in other place -- in the other place of the village. The men who were kidnapped were kidnapped on the road that leads to Skopje.

Q. All right.

A. Where your army was situated in the western part of the village.

Q. All right. All right. That's clear. Now, Ibush Vishi from Dubrava, is he a cousin of yours?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. And do you know Ahmet and Agim Vishi, also from Dubrava?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Ibush Vishi the commander of the brigade and Ahmet his deputy? Yes or no.

A. Ibush Vishi, during that time, was not there; he was in Albania. ⁴⁴⁶⁹

Q. I'm not asking you where he was at that time, but was he the commander of that brigade and Ahmet his deputy? Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. And what about Agim? Was he a member of the so-called Hochstab of the 62nd Brigade? Yes or no.

A. No, he was not.

Q. And on the 25th of May, when the convoy was set up, did you transfer an order by someone to the people to leave the village? Yes or no. Were you conveying an order?

A. No. We received orders from no one. But we did that because of fear. Knowing what had happened in other villages, the population decided to flee the country, the place.

Q. All right. That's sufficiently clear. I don't want to lose any more time, waste any more time with this witness. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff?

MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have only two matters, Your Honour. Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

Q. Witness, you say that you supported the KLA. In which way? What support did you provide?

A. I supported the KLA morally.

Q. And on top of that, also materially?

A. No.

Q. Did you receive any information from the KLA, as village leader?

A. No.

Q. Did you pass any information to the KLA in your role as village ⁴⁴⁷⁰ leader? For example, on the arrival of Serb troops?

A. Only after the population left to Macedonia.

Q. Right. The other thing I want to clarify is you adjusted your statement by saying that out of these six persons that were arrested, four of them were sent to Ferizaj where they were tortured in a coffee bar. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know?

A. We know because I saw them when they were separated from the convoy.

Q. I understand that. But were you present at the coffee bar?

A. No.

Q. Thank you.

MR. WLADIMIROFF: That's all I ask.

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vishi, one question: Could you clarify the meaning of what you said in your statement? Could you look at your statement. It's in the fourth paragraph of the first page. "We totally lost our freedom. From last New Year, we are not allowed to leave the Dubrava area."

Have you found it? "... we are not allowed to leave the Dubrava area."

In the Albanian language, it seems to be the third sentence of the fourth paragraph.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it.

JUDGE KWON: Did you hear from Serb forces not to leave the ⁴⁴⁷¹ village in a specific language? What do you mean by you are not allowed to leave the village? They ordered you to stay in the village? What's the meaning of that sentence?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't order us because we didn't have contact with them, but we didn't dare leave the village out of fear.

JUDGE KWON: Okay. Thank you. Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Q. Mr. Vishi, a moment ago Mr. Wladimiroff asked you whether you were present in the coffee bar when the four men from your village were held there, and your answer was no. You said, on cross-examination, that these men were released on the 29th of May. Following their release on the 29th of May, did you have occasion to speak with one or more of these men who had been held in the coffee bar?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall the name or names of these men?

A. Yes.

Q. What were their names?

A. One was Emrush Dullovi. There was Naser Gurri. There was Nebi Hajdari, and there was Isuf Malsiu.

Q. And what did these men tell you about the treatment they had received when they were held in coffee bar?

A. They told me that they were mistreated in the harshest way. They were beaten to the extent, and electricity was used on them. And they said that they laid all that time in the blood of the people who had been ⁴⁴⁷² in that cellar.

Q. Did these men tell you who had mistreated them?

A. They didn't know them.

Q. Let's go back to the 5th of May. You described in your cross-examination how you saw three men wearing uniforms arresting, as you put it, Sylejman Gurri. Were you able to recognise the uniforms worn by these three men?

A. We saw their uniforms. They were camouflage uniforms. They didn't have caps. They had automatic rifles in their hands. One of them was tall, thin, pale, and light-coloured fair and face, everything.

Q. Did you at that time associate the uniforms worn by those men with a particular force?

A. I only saw them for a moment, and we merely saw that they were military uniforms, camouflage uniforms, as I said.

Q. Could you hear if these men who were arresting Sylejman Gurri said anything to Sylejman Gurri?

A. On the moment when they came out into the road where they were stationed, they jumped up from three different places and ordered Sylejman Gurri to stop and to put his hands up.

Q. What language did these three men in uniform speak at that time?

A. They spoke Serbian.

Q. And you understand the Serbian language?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to change the subject now. On cross-examination, you were asked some questions about the attack on your village on the 25th of ⁴⁴⁷³ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁷⁴ May, and the accused asked you who did the Serbs attack in your village, and I'd like to explore that theme a little bit with you. Following the attack on your village, to your knowledge was any video made of any persons killed on the 25th of May in Dubrava?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that video made?

A. On the 26th of May.

Q. Who was that video made by?

A. It was made by a cousin of mine.

Q. What is the name of your cousin who made that video?

A. Fahri Vishi.

Q. And subsequently, has Fahri Vishi given that videotape to you?

A. I asked him to give me this evidence.

MR. SAXON: Your Honour, we have a copy of this video and it's with the members of the audio-visual department, and I would like to play --

JUDGE MAY: Well, how does it arise from cross-examination?

MR. SAXON: The accused asked this witness who the Serbs attacked, and on this video, we will see the bodies of some of the people who died in that attack.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: No. We're not going to admit it now.

MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. I have nothing further.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vishi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go. ⁴⁴⁷⁵

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

THE ACCUSED: Mr. May, may I ask you something?

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I got this list of witnesses dated the 2nd of May. It doesn't differ in any way from the list dated 29th of April. However, we heard a short while ago that they want to call Witness K4 the day after tomorrow, and that date had been fixed for the 15th of May. I assume that when we have three or four witnesses a day, it is quite clear that I cannot read 10 or 15 witnesses in advance because that is totally impossible. Therefore, I think that particularly these fixed witnesses should not be changed, that they should not make these changes at such short notice and calling them in advance. According to this list dated the 29th of April, he was planned for the 15th of May. And these are fixed witnesses.

JUDGE MAY: We will take this up with the Prosecution in due course because this isn't the only case of this change. Yes. Perhaps, Ms. Romano, you could pass that on to Mr. Nice, that we would like to discuss with him, if he can come tomorrow sometime, this business of the changes of the timetabling.

MS. ROMANO: Yes, Your Honour. I think that Mr. Nice will come at the end of the session for other matters also, and he will be able to ⁴⁴⁷⁶ address this.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll have the next witness.

MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Florim Krasniqi. Your Honours, in order to help with the testimony, the witness will testify about the area of Urosevac, and particularly the city of Mirosavlje. And this is the Kosovo atlas, page 12.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

WITNESS: FLORIM KRASNIQI

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Romano:

Q. Witness, please, can you state your full name to the Court.

A. Yes. My name is Florim Krasniqi.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when were you born?

A. 7th of November, 1966.

Q. And where do you live?

A. In Mirosale village of Ferizaj municipality.

Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you were interviewed on the 23th of April, 1999, by members of the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you remember that?

A. I remember it very clearly.

Q. And at that time, did you give a statement to the investigators? ⁴⁴⁷⁷

A. Yes.

Q. And on the 1st of February of this year, 2002, you appeared before a presiding officer appointed by the Registry of this Tribunal. Do you remember that as well?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. And you had the opportunity to review your statement, and you were given a copy of your statement in the Albanian language; that's correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You also gave additional information that is comprised in an addendum; that's correct?

A. Yes.

MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution would like to submit the statement into evidence.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit number 138.

MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the following: The witness is an Albanian male from the village of Mirosavlje in the municipality of Urosevac.

On 4th of April, the witness saw military vehicles on the road from Gnjilane to Urosevac positioned near the village of Softovic. They shelled towards the villages of Rahovica and Zlatare, killing four people in Zlatare and wounding another five people.

The next day, the witness heard shelling, firing, and tanks moving in the direction of Pojatiste, following which about 1.000 internally displaced persons from surrounding villages arrived in Mirosavlje. One of ⁴⁴⁷⁸ these displaced persons was from Pojatiste and told the witness that Serb forces had shot a number of people in his village. The witness attended the funerals of these men and has prepared a hand-drawn map showing the area between Mirosavlje and Pojatiste and indicating four gravesites where the dead were buried, which is attached to his statement. On 7 April 1999, the witness saw houses burning in Sojevo and Kamena Glava in the municipality of Urosevac. He later heard that seven people died in Sojevo, having been shot.

On 8th of April, 1999, Serb military vehicles came to his village. As soon as the vehicles were at the outskirts of the village, the soldiers jumped out and ran towards the houses. The witness and his family headed to the centre of their village. They joined other villagers and displaced persons who were fleeing, numbering hundreds. En route, the convoy was harassed and insulted by Serb forces, and the witness saw many burned houses and destroyed cars. The convoy was directed to Skopje by Serb police, but the witness stayed in Urosevac until 14 of April, 1999. On that date, the witness decided to leave Urosevac because every day he was hearing about killings and massacres by the Serbian army, and he felt it was too dangerous to stay. The witness then boarded a bus to Djeneral Jankovic, and at the border, police entered the bus and checked identification papers. The bus continued to the train station, where the police separated the people and collected money from the heads of the families. They were ordered to walk down the middle of the railway track to Macedonia.

No further questions, Your Honour. ⁴⁴⁷⁹

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] We have heard here now about killings, shootings, woundings, et cetera, but my question is going to be very precise. Did you personally see any one of these events that you are testifying about?

A. Yes. The -- I didn't see their execution, but I buried the victims myself.

Q. I asked you whether you had seen a single one of these events. Is the answer yes or no? You personally.

A. I didn't see the events myself, but I saw the casualties. I buried the bodies that were killed -- of the people who were killed by your soldiers, and I saw how the bodies were totally deformed.

Q. All right. Did you see this alleged execution in Pojatiste? Yes or no.

A. Pojatishte cannot be -- is not visible from my village because of the high hills, but the volleys of automatic rifle fire, when these victims were executed, were audible.

Q. You claim that one of the victims of this alleged execution that you had not seen was a certain Haxhi; is that right?

A. That's right. I can confirm his name here and now. He was also called Bajram.

Q. All right. All right. Further on, on page 3, in paragraph 3 of this statement, when you identify this Haxhi, you say his last name is Godeni; is that right?

A. That's right. ⁴⁴⁸⁰

Q. And you say that you're not from Pojatiste.

A. That's true. I'm not from Pojatishte. I'm from the village of Mirosale. However, he was from Ferizaj, and he had left Ferizaj and was temporarily staying in Pojatishte. When the Serbian forces entered Pojatishte, he was captured, and at the same time he was executed alongside villagers from Pojatishte.

Q. All right. That is what you had not seen, but that is what you claim. You also claim that, according to this alleged execution that you've been speaking about, there was a victim whose name you did not know; is that right?

A. The victim whose name I did not then know was called Bajram Godeni.

Q. Well, allegedly he's from the village of Smira. Is that right or is that not right?

A. Somebody else is from the village of Smira. This is somebody who survived death but received very serious wounds.

Q. But in your statement you say that you saw him later, this man, this man who had been executed, that you saw him later and that his name is Shaban, but you don't know his last name. Is that right or is that not right?

A. That's right. His name is Shaban.

Q. Where did you see him? Where did you see him?

A. I didn't see Shaban. I saw Hasim. But it seems you haven't read the statement as it is.

Q. What did this man who you saw say to you? ⁴⁴⁸¹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁸²

A. Hasim? This man I met is Hasim, who told me in detail about the execution.

Q. Was he also executed?

JUDGE MAY: Let's just --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He too --

JUDGE MAY: -- stick to the facts. Yes. What did he tell you, this man?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This man said that Serbian soldiers had gathered six people together, including Hasim. Hasim, together with them, was taken -- were taken by a soldier and escorted to a place on the edge of the village. There suddenly, when they arrived there, they forced them -- and they surrounded them, and one of them fired an automatic weapon. And of these people, three died on the spot, two were wounded, and Hasim escaped, merely catching a bullet on his jacket, on the sleeve of his coat.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Did these people shoot at them or above their heads?

A. The soldier fired at them, and so the -- where the bullet landed decided the fate of the victim.

Q. Hasim escaped when he saw that they would shoot; is that right?

A. That's right. That's right.

Q. How could he see then whether three men were killed, two wounded, et cetera, when he was fleeing from those who were shooting and who could not hit him?

A. Hasim didn't say how many victims got killed. He only said that ⁴⁴⁸³ they were shot at. But he knew nothing about the fate of the others. It was only later that we found out who the victims were, who the injured and the dead were.

Q. Who did you find that out from?

A. We found that out because the son of Osman Mehmeti and Shaban's son, Muharrem, went near that place after Hasim told them where that shooting place was, and in the -- they were in danger of their lives because the shooting still continued when they went closer to the place, and they crawled near to that place and pulled the bodies away, the injured, who was Osman, while the old man, Shaban, though injured, had left, because they were not lethal injuries for the moment.

Q. What kind of injuries did they have, this man who left the execution site himself and the one that was wounded? What kind of injuries did they have?

A. From what we heard from the nurse who administered the first aid, Osman had injuries on his belly and on his leg. A bullet had entered his leg and, as a result of it, he had received an injury. And because of the bloodshed, he died at 1.00 in the morning, because of lack of medical assistance right away.

His son who was also injured, he was lucky because the bullet hit him in the watch that was in his pocket so that deviated the trajectory of the bullet. He was received in the leg too [as interpreted], but he was slightly injured, so he was able to escape death.

Q. So some fled, some were executed, some were hit in the arm, some in the leg. Is that what you've been trying to explain? ⁴⁴⁸⁴

A. Yes, that is all.

Q. All right. Which nurse can give full details about these men? Please give her name and the address where she lives at now.

A. That nurse is called Nerxhivane Berisha from Mirosale village, and to this day she lives there. She has finished the high medical school.

Q. How far away is the village of Sojevo from your village?

A. Sojevo village is about four to five kilometres away from my village.

Q. And how many Albanian families lived in Sojevo?

A. I can't give you an exact figure of all the Albanian families living there because it's up to them to know the locals there. I know that it is a village inhabited mainly by Kosovars.

Q. But how many live there, approximately? I'm not asking for the accurate figure anyway.

A. An approximate figure, since the neighbourhoods are situated far from each other, I might say that it has about 200 households.

Q. Two hundred households?

A. Between 150 to 200. Up to 200, I said.

Q. All right. How many citizens does that make altogether, to the best -- to your best estimate?

A. I have not counted them.

Q. How many members does an average household in Sojevo have?

A. This is a ridiculous question, I would say, because I haven't visited each and every one of the households of Sojevo to count their members. ⁴⁴⁸⁵

Q. All right. Did you see seven people killed in Sojevo?

A. I heard about it from eyewitnesses.

Q. And how do you know that it is true that these people were killed?

A. I know because people came from Sojevo to Mirosale and back and forth, and those people -- it was easy to bring them from Sojevo to my village at Mirosale because it is a mountainous area. And they have confirmed to us that they were executed.

Q. How were they killed?

A. They were executed by your army. Among them, there were some victims whose bodies were carbonised later on, completely charred.

Q. So this village which has 200 households, approximately, that is to say a population of about 2.000, somebody went off and killed seven of the inhabitants there, according to what they told you?

A. At the beginning, we were told that only seven persons were killed, but after the war, we found out that there were more. Actually, their number was over -- more than ten.

Q. Well, you claim that on the 7th of April, you saw some fires. Is that right? Just tell me yes or no.

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. And then it seemed to you that it was houses in Sojevo and Kamena Glava that were on fire; is that right?

A. I saw it because my house is situated on a higher ground, and from there, I have a very good position to see what was going on. In this case, in the Sojevo village, I could see the burning houses, and Kamena Glava village. I saw the smoke rising in the sky. ⁴⁴⁸⁶

Q. And do you know whose houses burned down in Sojevo? Do you know the names of these persons?

A. I saw the burning houses. For the moment, it didn't matter whose house that was or those were.

Q. No. I'm asking you whether you know whose houses had burned down.

A. A large number of houses were burned down. With regard to whose houses they were, as I said, it is of no importance. Some --

JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, just say you don't know.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you the names. I'm sorry.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And was there a conflict in Sojevo between the KLA and the army?

A. In Sojevo and the surrounding villages, there have never been any KLA forces.

Q. So neither in Sojevo nor in your village were there ever any KLA forces. Is that what you're saying? In Kamena Glava or anywhere else in that area?

A. In our part of this area, that is in our village, there have never been KLA forces.

Q. And were there any in Gornje Nerodimje?

A. Nerodimje and other villages are very far away from my own village, therefore, I can't give you any answers to that.

Q. Well, these are villages in the same municipality. It's not a big municipality, Urosevac.

A. I can speak here about things which I'm completely sure about. ⁴⁴⁸⁷

Q. Yes. But a short while ago, you said that you did not see any of these things that you are talking about personally.

A. I said even earlier that I buried the victims. I saw the burning of the houses.

JUDGE MAY: No need to go over that. He says he saw the houses burning.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. You did your military service in 1985/1986; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. In which service did you serve?

A. I did my military service in Mali Bor in Slovenia.

Q. Yes, but which arms and services?

A. I was -- I did it in the communication, telephone communication service.

Q. And you claim that on the 8th of April, you saw a tank, M84, and a M60 armoured vehicle; is that right?

A. I didn't see only a tank and only an armoured vehicle, M60. There were many -- several tanks and several armoured cars.

Q. And as a signals corps person, how can you know what an M84 is, a tank, and also an armoured vehicle, M60? Where did you acquire this knowledge?

A. I know this. Even a child of 12 or less can say this, can confirm this, because these tanks, these armoured cars, were a daily ⁴⁴⁸⁸ reality for us Kosovars at that time, from before the war started.

Q. Yes. But how could you distinguish between the different types of armoured vehicles? You claim that these were the types that you mention in your statement.

A. Yes, that's correct. But it's easy to distinguish a tank from another armed vehicle which has another shape rather smaller than the tank.

Q. Please describe an M84 for us.

A. An M84 is a large tank. It has a large calibre cannon with a large barrel.

Q. What's the calibre?

A. I can't give you an exact figure.

Q. And this armoured vehicle, M60, what does it have?

A. Usually they have a large machine-gun which have wreaked havoc among the Albanian population of Kosova.

Q. All right. Tell me, who did you hear say that this was an M60 or an M84, as you had put it?

A. I am not clear about the question, I'm afraid.

JUDGE MAY: He says that he identified these vehicles himself.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you didn't hear that from someone else, that these were the vehicles concerned. You managed to identify them yourself.

A. I distinguished them myself because, as I said before, armoured vehicles were commonplace in Kosova and had been for a long time, on all ⁴⁴⁸⁹ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁹⁰ ^{BLANK PAGE} ⁴⁴⁹¹ the roads.

Q. And do you know that there is no such thing as an M84, there's only a T84? If we're talking about tanks.

JUDGE MAY: We will have expert evidence on this in due course. Do you know anything about that?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About tanks? If I saw a photograph, I could tell you that -- I could confirm you which -- confirm for you which tanks were involved in and around my village.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have Exhibit 17.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let's not waste any time now --

JUDGE MAY: No. You're challenging this. Let him just identify from the exhibit.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but he claims that he identified it himself. He claims that he identified it himself, not by having someone show photographs to him. That is what you stated yourself a minute ago.

JUDGE MAY: He can see the photographs that we have here and see if he can identify which it is. Now, if he has 17, he can have a look. Let the witness have a look at Exhibit 17 and see whether he can identify the M60 and the M84.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the armoured vehicle that was used.

JUDGE MAY: Just put it on the ELMO and we will see it. Which one? ⁴⁴⁹²

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one.

JUDGE MAY: Number 2 in Exhibit 17. Yes. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: And the tank? Yes, we've got that. And the tank?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the tank that was used.

JUDGE MAY: Which one?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Six.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Number 6 on Exhibit 17. Now, Mr. Milosevic, do you want to ask any questions about that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have nothing to ask. He just identified the wrong tank, and you're going to see that because you've marked it with number 6. But let's not waste any time.

JUDGE MAY: So that -- so the matter is ended, in fairness to the witness, he's identified the BTR60 APC and the T54 or 55 tank. Yes. Thank you. We can put the exhibit back.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you have seen that he identified the wrong combat vehicle.

JUDGE MAY: We will make a judgement about that. I've already said what he did identify, and we've got the pictures. If you think there's a significant difference, so be it. Now, let's move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. The soldiers who jumped out of the APCs and who started running towards your village, did they fire at someone? Yes or no.

A. I saw them running to the Cakaj neighbourhood of my village, but they weren't firing. ⁴⁴⁹³

Q. All right. Now, how many people were in the group which was in your column when they left the village?

A. You mean the number of soldiers or of the civilian population?

Q. No. I'm talking about the civilians, those who, upon leaving the village, moved in your column. So I mean civilians. How many people were in that group?

A. There were tractors, a lot of tractors in this group. So you cannot tell the total number because, besides the local people, there were also a large number of people from other villages such as Pojatishte Mohovci, Prelez, and many others. And these people had come to Mirosale to seek refuge because, until 8th of April, Mirosale was rather more peaceful than other places and had not been occupied by Serbian forces.

Q. All right, I asked you how many of them were there and you say you can't say how many and there were people from your village and other villages as well. I got that.

Now, when you left your village, on the main road you came across a checkpoint set up by the Yugoslav army. Is that right or not?

A. At the exit from Mirosale, following the road to the Gjilan-Ferizaj road or at the entrance to the village of Tankosiq, there was a checkpoint set up by Serbian forces. Adem Berisha, with his Lada car, a red one, was stopped at this checkpoint, and they confiscated his car and forced him to go back. This person was running towards us, and a Serbian soldier fired on him in -- fired in the air, and he came to us, and he climbed into a tractor and continued on the road to Ferizaj.

Q. You said that two inhabitants of your village started to flee from ⁴⁴⁹⁴ the soldiers who were at the checkpoint. One was Azem Berisha, whom you've just mentioned. Who was the other one?

A. Astrit Berisha.

Q. So there were just those two who were in the vehicle?

A. There were only these two people on the vehicle, and the -- their families were on the trailer.

Q. In your trailer or in another one nearby, near them?

A. In the trailer that was in front of us.

Q. And you say that the soldiers did not shoot at them, but they shot up in the air. Is that it?

A. They fired in the air. That's right.

Q. And where did those two men take cover, then; with you or did they get into the trailer where their families were?

A. They joined another tractor which they managed to find. It was not important by which trailer they saved themselves, they only wanted to get away from the scene of this tragedy.

Q. And on the occasion, did you pass a checkpoint or did you go back in the direction which you had come from?

A. Seeing what was happening there, that is on -- that the road to Tankosiq was impassable, we turned and went back in the direction of Ferizaj.

Q. But I understood you to say that you had left to go to Sojevo, that you had left that place and went to Sojevo. Is that correct or did I misunderstand you? And I think that's what it says in your statement as well. ⁴⁴⁹⁵

A. To go to Ferizaj, you have to pass through Sojevo.

Q. Well, how did you go to Sojevo when you said that you heard that the army was there? And it was the army and the soldiers that you were escaping from, and it was these people whom you allege had killed seven people in the village of Sojevo and set fire to the houses there.

A. Well, we went in that direction, putting our dearest ones and ourselves at risk. However, we knew that Serbian forces were there, but your main purpose was for everybody to leave Kosova so that we should never ever go back to Kosova. And so we went in that direction, thinking that even if they killed us, our lives didn't count for much any more.

Q. All right. You were fleeing from that army, from those soldiers, and you claim that they had killed somebody over there. And then you went back to precisely that place where those soldiers were whom, as you said, had killed someone. Is it your explanation that life didn't count for much? Is that why?

A. Hearing about the various murders, then life becomes cheaper. You can find death anywhere.

Q. All right. But why did you flee, then, for the reasons you stated?

A. We left when the Serbian forces entered my village. So my village was occupied, and it was no longer possible to live there, so we were forced to leave by your forces.

Q. All right, I understand the explanation you've just given, but would you please answer my questions. So in Sojevo, you came across a military checkpoint as well; is that right? ⁴⁴⁹⁶

A. If you came across a checkpoint which had narrowed the road, we had to slow down, and a Serbian soldier photographed all the tractors, one by one, and the people in them, and insulted us.

Q. All right. So the soldiers who had previously, according to what you say, in that same village of Sojevo, killed seven people and set fire to the houses, didn't even stop you. Have I understood you correctly?

A. Those who killed in Sojevo, fortunately, because we were a large convoy, did not stop us because they knew very well that this convoy would never return to Kosova but would take the road of no return.

Q. And you noticed some civilian vehicles there, did you?

A. It's true. There were civilian vehicles standing in the road, without licence plates or with covered licence plates. There were different civilian trucks prepared for looting, prepared to loot the civilian population of any village they entered.

Q. All right. And how did you come to that conclusion, passing by their vehicles? How did you know that these were vehicles ready to loot?

A. I had heard this before from the experience of other different villagers. I knew this from reading newspapers and from other people. And there are also films that I have brought here that document this, and you can see the houses emptied of their contents.

Q. Well, the inhabitants, didn't they take those things with them when they left?

A. We couldn't take even the things we needed. We left merely with the clothes on our backs.

Q. Yes. But you say that, in addition to the soldiers, and you ⁴⁴⁹⁷ mentioned that there were some paramilitaries there as well, that you just passed by them quite simply. Is that true or not?

A. There on the road, there were military forces. So whether they were paramilitaries or regular units, that's up to you, because they were all uniformed.

Q. You mentioned them, that's why I'm asking you. But let's leave that aside for the moment. You just went past them and nobody harmed you at all. Nobody did anything to you; is that right?

A. Fortunately, yes.

Q. When you crossed the border, nobody took away your ID papers; is that correct?

A. On the road from Ferizaj to Han i Elezit, on the road, I saw all sorts of things. And a police entered the bus in Han i Elezit, demanded our documents, identity cards. I was in the back of the bus and, while he was asking for the documents of the other travellers, because the bus was absolutely crammed with people, mainly women and children, and I handed over my identity card with them and put them -- put mine at the bottom of the pile. And I -- he -- I handed it over to the police, and he began to go through them. He identified three or four identity cards and then gave them back.

Q. And he gave everything back to you; is that right?

A. That's right. That's right. Returned them all.

Q. All right. Now tell me this: How long have you been a member of the KLA -- of the DSK? I beg your pardon, of the DSK -- LDK.

A. I have been a member of the LDK since the early days, since its ⁴⁴⁹⁸ formation. And most of the population of Kosova were members of the LDK.

Q. Yes, but what about you? Since when have you been a member? Can you give us a date?

A. I've been a member of the LDK since 1990.

Q. And did you have a party function in the LDK at all?

A. I was a member of the Presidency of the LDK in my village, and I was given the job of helping the population with food, because they were constantly under threat of hunger.

Q. All right. And the president of your party, in his testimony, says that a large number of the LDK members at the local level were members of the KLA as well. Is that true?

A. Regarding what the chairman said, in some other areas where the war had already assumed larger dimensions, this may well have happened and indeed did. But in my village and the other villages around, there were no members of the KLA. I can say that in my village, the members of the Presidency were not members of the KLA but were involved in this time with providing accommodation for the people and helping them with food.

Q. All right. And who put you in charge of the refugees, taking care of them?

A. The members of the village Presidency entrusted me with this task.

Q. And did you make lists of refugees and the places they had come from?

A. Before 24th of March, because the flow of refugees was rather smaller, we compiled a -- certain lists. But later, the flow became much larger and then it was no longer possible to check and list them all. ⁴⁴⁹⁹

Q. And how many were there before the 24th of March?

A. Also there was somebody else entrusted with making lists of them at that time, but I was involved in providing them with food then.

Q. All right. But I'm not asking you for their names. You said there were not many of them, but how many of them were there? Because in order to provide them with food, you had to know how many of them there were.

A. To give them food under regular time, you can give them food such as they like. But under war conditions, bread and salt is enough. So there was no need for any professional preparation of what they were to receive. And their number was around 1.000 to 1.500 people. This is before the 24th of March.

Q. All right. And how many members of the LDK at that time? How many were there?

A. In Mirosale, there were about 200 members of the LDK. This is related to the period before the war.

Q. And why were you afraid then that the police would arrest you if they learnt you were a member of the LDK when there were 200 people in the LDK in your village alone?

A. Because I was a member of the Presidency, and for that reason.

Q. And did the police arrest any member of the LDK, of you 200?

A. Some were maltreated, but none were imprisoned.

Q. All right. And was anybody killed on that 6th, 7th, and 8th of April, 1999, in your village?

A. Fortunately, no, no one was killed from the village. But a ⁴⁵⁰⁰ passerby was killed.

Q. All right. And what happened to that five-member Serbian family, the only family, in fact, that lived in your village?

A. The Serb family which remained there up to the 8th of April that we saw it, and then they remained alone, we behaved very well towards this family, all the villagers. And they, too, also behaved in the same way.

Q. All right. Now, do you happen to know of the crimes of the KLA in your municipality of Urosevac between 1998 and 1999?

A. I said we didn't have any KLA in Ferizaj.

Q. You mean in the Urosevac municipality there was no KLA? Is that it?

JUDGE MAY: Let us not argue about names. That's the witness's evidence, that there was no KLA.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Do you know about some other events that occurred, for example, of the 20th of December, 1998, when a group of KLA members on that day - in the evening, rather - kidnapped Joha Ramadani and his wife Mevluda, Muslia Benush [phoen] and his wife Matim Matesh Afrim [phoen] and Muhajevi Naser [phoen]? This took place in the village of Dramjak. Did you hear about that happening?

A. I have not heard of this event. This is the first time for me to hear that, from you.

Q. And what about another event in the village of Doganjevo when they threw hand grenades and shot from automatic rifles at a cafe belonging to Jashar Sarafari, also an Albanian from the village Doganjevo? ⁴⁵⁰¹

A. There isn't any such village called Doganjevo in Ferizaj municipality.

JUDGE MAY: Can you help us with any actions of the KLA as alleged in Ferizaj, or not?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if there were any KLA presence in Ferizaj, I can assure you that the victims would be in unprecedented numbers. But people in uniforms, KLA uniform, there have never been. Therefore, fortunately, our municipality suffered less casualties compared to other municipalities where there were KLA forces.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we must -- we must bring this cross-examination to a close in the next minute.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So where there was no KLA, there were less casualties; is that right? That's what you said a moment ago; right?

A. In all the areas of Kosova where there was no KLA, the number of victims was smaller.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much. We have exhausted our time.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff.

MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have nothing to ask, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

MS. ROMANO: No. No questions, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Krasniqi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go. ⁴⁵⁰²

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank you and to convey the heartfelt greetings of the families of the victims and especially their mothers who send you their regards. You and all your people who are in Kosova and are rendering great contribution for justice to triumph in Kosova, justice which was in oblivion for several years.

JUDGE MAY: We must bring that to a close. Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to withdraw.

[The witness withdrew]

MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand there were some listing difficulties you would like me to address. I'll be very brief because I know time is pressing and I would like to return, perhaps in a private session, to one of the topics we were discussing this morning, for a minute.

We have an updated list in the form of a letter to Mr. Dubuisson which I can now distribute. While that's being made available, the problems we face in producing witnesses include that witnesses whose evidence is being given by 92 -- the provisions of 92 bis come in batches. It's only possible to have two batches a week, and we can only roughly get enough witnesses through the Victims and Witnesses Unit, with their great assistance, to fill about two and a half days per week at the average rate we're proceeding at the moment. So that's the underlying or the background problem.

As to the particular problem with the witness identified by the accused - we needn't give any names or so on, identifying marks for the ⁴⁵⁰³ moment - for this Thursday, there was another witness who was originally of a similar type coming in for this Thursday. That witness's travel arrangements were compromised by security issues and so that witness couldn't come. Because we can only have about two and a half days of 92 bis witnesses in a week, it's not possible to get more at this rate, another witness had to be brought forward and the decision was made to bring forward the witness about whom the accused spoke this morning and who now features on the latest letter at number 9. So that explains the problem. We're always unhappy when it happens, but our prime concern is to make maximum use of the court time available and there was no other way we could fill it apart from bringing a different category of witness from a 92 bis witness in respect of whom we used our maximum allocation.

So that explains at that problem. We do everything we can to avoid these problems occurring, but frequently there are events entirely outside our control.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I think that, of course, is understood, but it does present the accused and the Chamber with preparation difficulties. So we would be grateful if it's kept to a complete minimum.

MR. NICE: Can I make one other public announcement and then have a minute in private session, if you would allow that. The public announcement is that, by oversight, Exhibit 132 included some pages which are irrelevant. I'll just give you the numbers of the pages. They are serial numbers 00461197 to 1222. They don't relate to that document, they're another document. It's one of the constitutional documents and ⁴⁵⁰⁴ another constitution crept in by --

JUDGE MAY: It's the constitution of Republika Srpska.

MR. NICE: Yes, and another one's crept in.

JUDGE MAY: Which got in by mistake but no doubt it will be relevant at some stage.

MR. NICE: It may be. May we very briefly go into private session?

[Private session]

(redacted)

(redacted) ⁴⁵⁰⁵ Page 4505 - redacted - private session.

⁴⁵⁰⁶

(redacted)

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of April, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.