Wednesday, 16 July 2003

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, you're going to deal with these statements, so I understand it.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: The first thing we need to do is to decide on a procedure. Your intention, as I understand it, was to call these witnesses in the next two weeks.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we're faced with some logistical problems, and in order to ensure that we were able to fill the Court's schedule for the remaining weeks, I had asked that the decision on these nine witnesses be expedited. Some of the logistical problems have been solved. There still may be the possibility of smaller gaps, but it is not as urgent as I first believed last week.

JUDGE MAY: If we heard the argument now and gave a decision next Tuesday, is that going to present any problems to you?

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's what we'll do. We've got the nine witnesses we have to deal with. And taking them in the order which you set out in your annex, there are five for which you concede that cross-examination is appropriate, beginning with 1750. There's no concession there. This is -- deals with deportation and forced labour and destruction of cultural property in Bijeljina. Yes. Is 24510 there anything you want to say about that one?

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I would just note that upon further reflection and another reading of the statements, there are really only two witnesses who the Prosecution would be proposing that they should be -- their evidence should be taken without cross-examination. B1750, as well as a number of other witnesses, or most of the other witnesses, the Prosecution would concede that a -- a live issue is raised and that it would be appropriate for the witnesses to be called for cross-examination. The only exception to those seven witnesses would be Witness 1488. That witness the Prosecution would also concede that under the Appeals Chamber's analysis in Galic, that that witness probably also speaks to some evidence that would be considered proximate to the accused, and in the case of that witness, the Prosecution would be requesting that the statement be accepted under 92 bis and that the Prosecution only lead that portion of the evidence which would be considered proximate.

JUDGE MAY: So 1488 you would be calling some evidence live.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: And what's the position about 1750?

MR. GROOME: The position of the Prosecution, Your Honour, is that it is not proximate to the acts and conduct of the accused. The amici, through Mr. Kay, have agreed to that, or put the same position forward. The Prosecution does concede that a live -- a substantive reference to the JNA is made in that statement and it is appropriate that the witness be called for cross-examination.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. 1524 seems to be the next on the list. 24511

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that is one of the witnesses that the Prosecution submits that -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that. That is one of the witnesses who I had originally submitted cross-examination was not necessary in the 92 bis, but upon a more careful reading of the statement and further analysis about the importance of the evidence to the entire case, I would concede that that -- cross-examination is appropriate in that -- in the case of that witness.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. 1460, you've conceded some cross-examination.

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour. I would note that the Prosecution's position, and in concurrence with the amici's position, is that it's not proximate to the acts and conduct of the accused. It is cumulative of two witnesses that have testified, B-1455 and B-1146.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. 1516?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is one of the witnesses who the Prosecution submits that cross-examination is not necessary. This witness's testimony is -- or evidence is cumulative of the testimony of B-1416. It does not go to the acts or conduct of the accused. There is no reference to the JNA but for the presence of a JNA sitting on a bridge in March of 1992. It is the Prosecution's position that this is such a de minimis reference to the JNA that even though it is a reference, it does not raise a live issue in the case, and therefore cross-examination is not warranted.

JUDGE MAY: 1097 and 1704, both of them you've conceded 24512 cross-examination.

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Anything to add about them?

MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: 1010?

MR. GROOME: This is the other witness who the Prosecution submits cross-examination is not warranted. This witness was cumulative of B-1701. If the Chamber recall, 1701 testified about events in Bratunac, and there was extensive cross-examination regarding whether the people who the witness claimed or said were in JNA uniforms were in fact really JNA. The accused had a full opportunity to cross-examine him on that. This witness's testimony is essentially the same, except that this witness says that though the -- although the people were in JNA uniforms, he did not believe that they were active JNA members.

JUDGE MAY: But he described some of them, I think, as local Serbs, at one stage.

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour. So it does not appear that producing this witness for cross-examination will -- The statement taken at face value suggests what the -- the point that the accused made with B-1701. The Prosecution will be introducing other evidence of people in a better position to know the true identity of the people involved in the takeover of Bratunac, so the Prosecution would submit that it is not necessary under 92 bis for this witness to be called for cross-examination.

JUDGE MAY: This is the -- the Glogova incident, the massacre, as 24513 it's said?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: A large number of people. But we have had witnesses about -- we've had this witness who gave evidence about the execution on the river bank.

MR. GROOME: That was 1701. And again, he testified about seeing men in JNA uniforms. The accused challenged that. It is unlikely that this particular witness can advance that point any further. And as I've said, the Prosecution plans to call at least one witness who will be able to -- will be available for both examination-in-chief and cross-examination on this issue and is in a better position to know who was present.

JUDGE MAY: And I think that leaves 1502, and you concede again cross-examination there.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. Mr. Kay, in those circumstances, is there anything you want to -- to add?

MR. KAY: No, Your Honour. The amici have put in a detailed filing of the arguments upon the matter. Obviously the Prosecution have had time to reflect on their initial motion and submission and have conceded the cross-examination issue on a major part of those witnesses. Those that they don't concede cross-examination upon, there's nothing further for me to add because the material is already within that filing. And as I have identified in our reply, those witnesses were cumulative of 24514 other evidence.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, do you want to say anything about these particular witnesses? Any argument you want to address on that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nothing specific, except that in their case too we are confronted with the same problem and that is limiting the possibility of establishing the truth and of cross-examining the witnesses, shortening the time with 92 bis witnesses, protected witnesses, and a series of other points that I have already raised which apply to this group of witnesses as well.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider the matter. We'll give our ruling on Tuesday, when we next sit.

Yes. Yes, Mr. McKeon. MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour, the first witness being brought in this morning is Mr. Emil Cakalic.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cakalic, would you take the declaration, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Examined by Mr. McKeon:

Q. Would you please state your full name. 24515

A. Emil Cakalic.

Q. And Mr. Cakalic, did you previously testify here at the Tribunal in the case of Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic?

A. I did. MR. McKEON: Your Honours, I would like to offer the transcript of the witness's testimony from that trial into evidence under Rule 92 bis (D).

JUDGE MAY: We've got here what seems to be a bundle of his papers or a bundle of exhibits; is that right?

Are you asking to have anything more than the transcript admitted at the moment?

MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour. We're asking for also the exhibits found at tab 2, which were Exhibits 51, 52, and 53, tendered during his testimony. I will not be asking him any questions about those this morning, however.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will give it a single exhibit number.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 504.


Q. Mr. Cakalic, I'm going to summarise now the testimony that you gave on that previous occasion. I'll interrupt that summary on a few occasions to ask you some questions about areas that weren't covered in your previous testimony.

MR. McKEON: The witness is a Croatian man who was 57 years old at the time of the events in question. During the battle for Vukovar, his 24516 job was to ensure good quality drinking water for the population and army and hygienically correct food for the Croatian army and police. On the 17th of November, 1991, the witness learned that units of the Yugoslav army and paramilitary units had boarded inhabitants from the street in which he lived in personnel carriers and taken them away. The witness and his wife decided to abandon their home and go to the Vukovar hospital.

On 20 November 1991, at about 7.30 or 8.00 in the morning, all employees of the hospital were called to a meeting. All others who were not employed in the hospital were asked to leave through emergency ward doors. There were about 250 people gathered there. There were two soldiers there, including one named Pero, that the witness later saw when he was being taken from Vukovar to Sremska Mitrovica. This soldier, Pero, was cursing them and said that he would kill all of them if there were not prisoners in Croatian hands who were members of his army. There were five busses outside the hospital. After being searched and having anything dangerous taken away, JNA soldiers ordered them to get on the busses. They drove to the military barracks in Vukovar. There soldiers and people identified by the witness as Chetniks mistreated them psychologically, saying things like, "I'm going to slaughter you," or, "I'm going to cut your throat." The busses stayed at the barracks until approximately 2.00 in the afternoon.

From there they went to Ovcara. They were met at Ovcara by a captain of the Yugoslav army. After the captain took personal possessions from them, including the witness's eyeglasses, which were smashed, 24517 everyone on the busses had to pass between two rows of these Chetniks, who beat everyone, including Dr. Bosanac's father-in-law, who was over 70 at the time.

Inside the hangar, the beatings intensified. The witness himself was beaten with a wooden crutch, causing serious injury to his vertebrae. The witness saw two men beaten so badly in the hangar that they were killed.

Inside the hangar, a man appeared, strong, big, with a large cap and a big cockade on it. He was with a major who was being called Major Milan Lukic. The major wanted to use an electric baton on the prisoners, but the other man warned him not to do that because there were too many witnesses. After Ovcara, the witness saw this same major in Negoslavci, when this major was escorting the witness's convoy from Vukovar to Sremska Mitrovica.

After some time, a man dressed in a JNA uniform called the witness outside of the hangar. There were seven people gathered there. The beatings continued inside the hangar, but outside the witness saw the soldiers who had escorted them in the busses looking for money. After some time, the witness was called back into the hangar where a colonel and two lieutenant colonels took down his particulars. He was then put into a kombi van and driven away.

From Ovcara, the witness was taken to the Velepromet in Vukovar. There was no room there, so they were transferred to a privately owned tailoring company called Modateks. Several of the people he was being held with were beaten, and one sergeant major threatened to have a man 24518 named Topola burn out the eyes of one of the prisoners with a cigarette butt.

I'd like to jump to paragraph 13 of the summary, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Cakalic, the people who were beating the prisoners at Modateks, could you tell, based on the uniforms they were wearing, whether these were JNA soldiers, or were they something else?

A. They were JNA soldiers.

Q. And this person that was referred to, Topola, who they threatened to use to burn out the eyes of the prisoners with a cigarette butt, did you see Topola at Ovcara before you arrived at the Modateks?

A. Yes, at Ovcara. MR. McKEON: Returning to the summary, Your Honour, paragraph 8. The witness remained at Modateks until the 21st, when he was taken back on foot to the Velepromet warehouse. At the Velepromet, everything the witness had was taken away from him. He was taken into a room called the room of death. During that night, several people were taken away from this room and never returned.

Your Honour, moving to paragraph 14 of the proofing summary.

Q. Sir, could you tell the Court how many people were taken out of the room of death, beaten, and never heard from again?

A. Six people.

Q. And, sir, were you able to actually hear the beatings that took place and the conversations that took place outside of this room? And if so, could you tell the Court what you heard.

A. When they took out a graduate agricultural engineer, the director 24519 of the Vukovar slaughterhouse, he was called out and he was taken outside. This room, this room of death, had a window with bars, or rather, just bars without glass so that we could hear what was being said. They interrogated him where the meat was, where the wheat was, and then a blow could be heard, probably on his head, and then everything stopped. He was exhumed later on.

Q. Could you tell us, sir, about one prisoner who was brought back into the room of death, after being questioned, with cigarette burns on his body. Could you tell the Court about that, please.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat --

A. Wilhelm Karlovic is his name. He's now still in the Croatian army. He has the rank of major. He was taken out twice and brought back. On his body, they would extinguish their cigarettes.

Q. Could you -- when he came back into the room, could you see the marks on his body where the cigarettes were extinguished?

A. Yes. Only on a part of his body, because he was wearing clothes. He was stripped and they made these cigarette burns all over his body, but then he put on his clothes, so we only saw them on his arms.

Q. Were there JNA soldiers present at this room of death? And if so, approximately how many?

A. There were three of them that I saw.

Q. In addition to the JNA soldiers, were there any of these people that you've referred to as Chetniks?

A. Yes, there were. There are some people from Vukovar that I knew, that I had collaborated with. For instance, Zarko Leskovac, who had hand 24520 grenades on his chest and automatic rifle. He was always tipsy. He would demand that the door be opened of the room of death. He would leave, and then after that certain people would be called out, some of whom never returned.

Q. You said that he would call to have the door opened to the room of death. Who was it that could actually open that room? Who had the key to that room?

A. One of those soldiers.

Q. When you say "soldiers," are you referring to JNA soldiers or someone else?

A. The soldiers of the JNA, yes. That's how they introduced themselves. That is what they said they were, special policemen in the Yugoslav army, military policemen.

Q. And this Topola that you said was at Ovcara, did you also see him at the Velepromet?

A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. First of all, I saw him at Ovcara and later on at the Velepromet.

MR. McKEON: Your Honours, returning to the proofing summary, paragraph 10.

During the night, a captain of the counterintelligence service came and took the witness and others to the JNA barracks because he said that if he didn't do this, the Chetniks would kill them all. As it came closer to morning, military policemen arrived and they began to beat individuals there. One man had his hands tied and was made to swallow two or three bullets. 24521 Question from paragraph 15 of the summary:

Q. Could you tell the Court who it was that was beating the prisoners at the JNA barracks.

A. The Muslims had declared themselves as being Muslims, and the soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army. So they were military policemen too of the Yugoslav People's Army.

MR. McKEON: Turning to paragraph 11 of the proofing summary. As morning dawned, a soldier arrived and introduced himself as Captain Vojin Mesic, a Serb from Negoslavci. After dividing the Serbs from the Croats, this captain turned to the Croats and said, "Listen, we are going to kill all of you. We are going to burn you and throw your ashes into the Danube to destroy your Croat seed." The witness and the others were put on a bus and shipped to Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia, stopping in Negoslavci along the way.

And a question from paragraph 16 about this stop in Negoslavci: Sir, this JNA major that you saw at Ovcara, the one who threatened to use an electric baton and was called by the name of Milan Lukic, did you see this major again at Negoslavci?

A. Yes, I did see him in Negoslavci; however, they didn't call him Lukic; they called him Ivanovic there.

Q. And --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon, would you clarify one thing before we go any further. The reference to the Muslims who were doing the beating at the JNA barracks. It may be clear to some, but it's not clear what that is a reference to. 24522 MR. McKEON:

Q. Mr. Cakalic, at the JNA barracks, you referred to Muslims who did some of the beatings at the JNA barracks. Could you tell us what military organisation, if any, these Muslims were affiliated with and how it is that you concluded that they were Muslims.

A. There were both Muslims and Serbs, but these said for themselves that they were Muslims.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Who were they? What were they doing in the barracks? Could you just explain that.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were stationed there, and they were military policemen of the Yugoslav People's Army.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. MR. McKEON:

Q. Returning for a moment to Negoslavci, when you saw this major. Did you overhear what his job was in the JNA and why he was at Negoslavci?

A. There was a whole convoy, in fact, and they were driving. There were tanks in front, where there were some doctors in the tanks. And he was escorting, one of the escorts of the convoy. MR. McKEON: Returning to the proofing summary, paragraph 12. Upon the witness's arrival at Sremska Mitrovica, he was interrogated by Boro Savic and Goran Hadzic, and while in Sremska Mitrovica the witness was beaten severely and suffered serious injuries. That is the end of the summary, Your Honour. I have just a few additional questions about Sremska Mitrovica covered in paragraphs 17, 18, and 19 of the proofing summary. 24523

Q. Mr. Cakalic, upon your arrival at Sremska Mitrovica, did you have to pass through a double row of military police officers similar to the cordon that you had to go through at Ovcara?

A. Yes. It was -- we had to run the gauntlet and there were a lot of them. There are three steps up and three steps down through a metal door that you have to go through, and they were lined up, the blue policemen, with their batons and clubs. And they were standing about 3 to 4 metres apart, and everybody beat us any way they could until we arrived in the playground, where they lined us up and asked us what our names were, what we did, and anything we did, they said we'd been doing the wrong things, "You were a baker, you baked bread. You were a cobbler, you repaired shoes." And we were beaten up very badly there.

There was a Muslim there who was doing the beating along with a Serb, and I heard him say, "Yes, I'm a Muslim, but I'm a member of the Yugoslav People's Army." And the other one said, "I'm a Serb." And there were 37 of us, I think, there and there were about 50 of the policemen there, maybe more, I couldn't count them all. But they all beat us after these two. And we had to lie down on the ground, and they beat us one by one. It was absolutely unbelievable. People fell down, they couldn't get up afterwards. When they did manage to get up, they would fall to the ground again. It was absolutely terrible. Many of them lay there unconscious. I, too, was badly beaten. They especially liked to beat us on the head and neck, where it's most sensitive, because you have your central nervous system going down your backbone and spine, so they had probably received instructions that that's where they were to 24524 BLANK PAGE 24525 beat us, and they did it well.

Q. And during these beatings, did you see a prisoner beaten to death?

A. Yes, I did. That was a little later on. The beating went on two more times, and then towards night they wanted to take us into the rooms, 10 by 10, approximately. Suddenly there was some confusion, and I saw them kill Niko Soljic. Some 15 to 20 minutes later, they brought in a coffin, put him inside the coffin, and drove him away, killed.

Q. Sir, approximately how many times were you personally beaten at Sremska Mitrovica?

A. I counted up to 20 times and ...

Q. And you referred to being questioned at one point by Boro Savic and Goran Hadzic. At the time that you were being questioned by them, did you recognise another man from Vukovar standing there carrying a baseball bat? And if so, who was that?

A. He was a judge in the Vukovar court, and his name was Branko Kovacevic. He stood guard by the door for Goran Hadzic and Boro Savic.

Q. Could you tell us, please, who it was that ran this prison at Sremska Mitrovica?

A. Most probably it was a colonel, but anyway, it was the Yugoslav People's Army that had control of the prison.

Q. And did local non-JNA paramilitaries ever come into this prison? And if so, when would they come in, in general?

A. It was the Vukovar men who would usually turn up, usually on a Saturday and Sunday, when the army wasn't there. And then they would call people out and take them off, individuals from the camp. They would take 24526 them into rooms, put socks on their heads so that people couldn't recognise them, and then proceeded to beat those people. MR. McKEON: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. That's all the questions that I have for this witness.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cakalic, did you or were you in any way involved in the Croatian National Guards corps in Vukovar?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. In what capacity?

A. I was a sanitary inspector in Vukovar, and I saw that there were problems with water supplies and food supplies, and I volunteered and went to the defence office on the 15th of June. I reported there and said that as a professional I'd be happy to do that job for the Croatian army, for the police, and for all the citizens of Vukovar.

Q. You say you never had any -- actually, you were involved in the ZNG but you had no post or position within the organisation, did you?

A. No, I did not.

Q. All right. Thank you. As you controlled the food, among other things, you did food inspection - and I can see from the statement that you gave to the representative of the MUP of Croatia in May 1992 that you inspected the food in Dunav and the Gradiska Kafana and some other facilities.

A. Yes. Yes, and others too. I don't know whether you know the 24527 Grand building in Vukovar. It's the workers centre.

Q. All right. So you conducted the food inspection.

A. Yes, except in Borovo Naselje.

Q. All right. Except in Borovo Naselje. Right. Now, how many meals did you have to inspect per day?

A. Well, I had a system. I devised a system by which all the employees working there - there were Croatian ladies and Serbian ladies and Muslim ladies - and I required that they disinfect all the cutlery and glasses and cups and the dishes in which food was transported to the battlefield. And each of them had to eat that food before they sent it on to the soldiers, and they did eat it.

Q. All right. So as you sent food to the battlefield, how many people were these meals prepared for?

A. Well, transport was something else. Other people dealt with that. This was just the preparation, the cooking of food, whereas the transport was conducted in special vehicles by other people.

Q. All right. So if you controlled all this and inspected it all, you can't actually tell us of the quantity of food and for how many people the food was being cooked for.

A. I really couldn't say.

Q. Well, as I understand it, before the war, before the conflict broke out, you also worked in the municipality of Vukovar as head of the sanitary inspection team.

A. I wasn't the chief, the boss; I was a sanitary inspector.

Q. Right. That means you were an employee of the Vukovar 24528 municipality; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember when in July 1991 there was a decree disbanding the Municipal Assembly of Vukovar, which had been regularly elected at the free elections which were held, when the others were there, and that the then-president was suspended? His name was Slavko Dokmanovic, wasn't it, and he was the mayor or president of the municipal assembly.

A. He continued to work, and I cooperated with him.

Q. Yes. And as a commissioner of the Croatian government, it was Marin Vidic, Bili, who was appointed.

A. Yes.

Q. So he took over the role of president of the municipality.

A. He was a representative of the government of the Republic of Croatia for the municipality of Vukovar. That's what his post was called, his position. But I can tell you that after the situation in Borovo Selo, when those 13 policemen were killed over there, representatives of the International Red Cross arrived, and I think it was Dr. Nicholson, along with the president of the Yugoslav Red Cross and the president of the Croatian Red Cross, and I think we went to Borovo because that representative of the International Red Cross wanted to see what the situation was like for himself and what had happened there. And we were driven there in armoured cars. But after some time had gone by, a former policemen turned up. I knew him well, I was on good terms, and he said, "Emil, get away from here as quick as you can. Leave here, leave this place." 24529

Q. And what was the point of that, of what you're saying? There were civilians over there.

A. There were Chetniks and there were also several members, as far as I was able to see, about ten of them in fact, with some strange caps on their heads, and they were about 50 to 60 metres away from us and they would run across from one side of the road to the other, probably to instil fear in us, so that we thought there were more of them than there actually were.

Q. How many do you mean strange caps?

A. Well, Chetnik caps.

Q. So they weren't members of the JNA.

A. Well, Mr. Markovic was there at a rally, the president of Yugoslavia, I mean, and he attended a rally where there were members of the Yugoslav People's Army before that.

Q. Do you mean Ante Markovic? Is that who you mean? And he was the Prime Minister of the federal government, as you know, and as you know he was a Croat himself.

A. Yes, I know all that.

Q. Well, when the Prime Minister of the federal government comes to any place, you would have the citizens rally.

A. Well, I don't know that it was always like that. I myself didn't go.

Q. Well, you could have gone if you wanted to.

A. But luckily, I wasn't there.

Q. All right, fine. Not to dwell on that for too long. Tell me, 24530 please: As you were an employee of the municipality yourself, I'm sure you know that Marin Vidic, Bili -- you knew him personally, as I understand it.

A. Yes, we collaborated.

Q. All right. Then you knew him personally and cooperated. I'm sure you will know, then, that in the second half of May already in 1990 in the area of Lovas.

A. That's his native village

Q. I see, his native village. Anyway, he formed a military organisation within the HDZ party and divided it up into the technical service, at whose head we had Ivo Madzarevic, and the military service --

JUDGE MAY: Let's see if the witness knows anything about any of this.

Mr. Cakalic, do you know anything about any of this that's being alleged by the accused?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm hearing this for the first time now.


THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never heard of that before.

JUDGE MAY: No point going into detail about that. He doesn't know anything about it.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I expected you to interrupt me, although the witness said that he knew him well, Marin Vidic and cooperated with him --

JUDGE MAY: Then there was no need to ask the question if you were 24531 expecting interruption. Let's move on.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you've been misled.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you don't know about that?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm going to ask the witness something now. Vukovar isn't a large town, you know, and I'm going to ask him whether he knew Marin Vidic. And as you can see, he knows where he was born, and it was the village of Lovas, and he knew about Lovas in 1990. And I have here a court document from the military court in Belgrade and --

JUDGE MAY: This has nothing to do -- Do you know anything about the military court in Belgrade, Mr. Cakalic? Of course he doesn't. It's nothing to do with the witness. Now, if you want to get some evidence in about Mr. Vidic, Bili, then you can try later, but there's no point abusing the process by putting something to a witness which he knows nothing about.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I really believe that the witness doesn't know anything about the military court in Belgrade. And indeed I'm not asking him about the military court in Belgrade. I'm asking him about something that has to do with a document of the military court in Belgrade and I'm asking him whether he knows about the events referred to there. And I imagine I should not be forbidden to ask him questions about what he himself had said --

JUDGE MAY: You can put the matter, put it shortly, and we'll see if the witness knows anything about it, what the allegation is. You can 24532 certainly put that from the document you have.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Have you heard of Ivo Madzarevic and did you know him?

A. No.

Q. Did you know Markica Gracanac?

A. No.

Q. Did you know Franjo Mujic, at least, who was in charge of this medical service? Because you are from that line of work.

A. In Lovas?

Q. Franjo Mujic, Branko Krizmanic, do you know any of them?

A. No.

Q. None of them?

A. No, not by their name or surnames. Perhaps I know them by sight.

Q. Do you know anything about the organisation of this armed formation within the HDZ as far back as 1990 in Lovas?

A. I first heard of it from you just now.

Q. All right. Do you know anything about the collection of money to buy weapons then, that is to say, as far back as 1990?

A. Everybody bought weapons for themselves.

Q. Oh, nothing was collected. Everybody bought their own weapons?

A. Everybody bought their own weapons. Who wanted to buy a rifle, brought his own rifle. You know that the entire civilian defence had been disarmed and the Secretariat of National Defence, with all their weapons, all of that was disarmed. 24533

Q. What was the price of an automatic rifle at that time? Do you remember?

A. Well, at first it cost about 2.000 Deutschmark, afterwards 1.000 Deutschmark, and then 500 Deutschmark, and afterwards you could get them for free.

Q. I assume hat you did not buy a rifle.

A. No, I didn't.

Q. That was not your activity?

A. No, it wasn't.

Q. And those people who were buying rifles, who were they buying them from?

A. From smugglers.

Q. And who was involved in the organisation of this armed smuggling; a person you know from the territory of the municipality?

A. I don't know.

Q. All right. Do you remember -- I mean, I assume that you know Tomislav Mercep.

A. I do him know.

Q. He was Secretary for National Defence in the municipality of Vukovar?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. He was appointed precisely by Marin Vidic, Bili, when he took over as representative of the Croatian government in Vukovar. He was the one who appointed him chief of National Defence; is that right?

A. I don't know whether Vidic appointed him, but he was head of 24534 National Defence.

Q. Yes.

A. Well, this is the first time I hear that Vidic appointed him.

Q. Do you know that he was involved in the formation of precisely those military units, those military units that were within the HDZ?

A. As for that question, I could not answer it, because it wasn't formation within the HDZ. It was within the defence department.

Q. Tell me, please: Did you know Josip Gazo?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did he do?

A. He was -- when I came from camp, I found him in Zagreb. And he was chief of police when I was in Zagreb then, after being in camp.

Q. Do you remember within that organisation, that is to say, Marin Vidic, Tomislav Mercep, this chief of police you mentioned just now, and so on and so forth, do you remember what happened in terms of the activities that directly threatened the safety of persons and property?

A. This chief of police was not in Vukovar. He was chief of police when the entire government was moved to Vukovar.

THE INTERPRETER: To Zagreb, interpreter's correction.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know anything about Mercep's activities? This had to do with the fact that many Serbs went missing or were killed in Vukovar before these operations.

A. This is the first time that I hear that Serbs were killed in Vukovar. This is the first time I ever hear of this. 24535

Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this is a court document, can I have it exhibited? Because obviously the witness recognises some of the persons mentioned in this document.

JUDGE MAY: It's nothing to do with the witness, absolutely nothing to do with him at all. The fact that he's heard of somebody mentioned in a document is not a ground for exhibiting it. Yes, let's move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what is going on here has nothing to do with me either, but here I am, and I'm carrying out these activities that really have nothing to do with me whatsoever. But if you believe that this has nothing to do with the witness --

JUDGE MAY: Just get on with it. If you have any questions for the witness, or we'll let him go.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you remember at least the following: That on the 3rd of September, 1991 a decision was reached precisely in the municipality of Vukovar and precisely by Mercep and precisely by Vidic ordering the directors of Electroslavonija, the water supply company, and the PTT to cut off electricity, water, and telephone from the military barracks?

A. Would you tell me the date, please? I haven't remembered --

Q. The 3rd of September, 1991.

A. At that time, Mercep was no longer in Vukovar.

Q. I'm talking about these people who headed the service, the people he appointed. Rimac Vlado headed the technical service and Gazo Josip 24536 headed the military service. Stipan Radas. Do you remember?

A. Obviously you got something confused there, sir. After the month of September -- rather, after the month of August, Mercep was not in Vukovar any more at all. He was transferred to Vukovar.

THE INTERPRETER: To Zagreb, interpreter's correction.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Dedakovic, Mile Dedakovic, Colonel Dedakovic took over the Defence.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm talking about the people he appointed. Do you know Vlado Rimac, Gazo Josip, and Stipan Radas?

A. I know Gazo Josip.

Q. Do you know that this decision was reached on the 3rd of September? I'm talking about these people here appointed. And Mercep was with John Tuzaga [phoen] precisely at the request of Marin Vidic because he had committed crimes there.

A. No, that's not the reason for that.

Q. Do you have the letter that Marin Vidic wrote to Tudjman about this?

A. I don't have that letter. But I'll tell you one thing: Mercep was not a military man. He was not an expert in these matters. He was an engineer. It was Dedakovic who was a military man.

Q. All right. But I'm asking you whether you know about this decision of the 3rd of September -- or rather, this order that was issued to the director of Electroslavonija, that is the power supply company in Vukovar, is that right, and the water supply company, and the PTT to have 24537 electricity, water, and telephone lines cut off from the military barracks.

A. When the entire population had their electricity, power, et cetera cut off, that is when this happened to the military barracks too.

Q. Which date was this?

A. I don't remember the exact date. I think it was sometime in the second half of September, something like that, around the second half of the month of September.

Q. All right. Is it correct that precisely then this Mile Dedakovic, Jastreb, with the so-called active service of the ZNG surrounded the Vukovar military barracks and started the blockade of the barracks and started opening fire at the barracks?

A. The barracks was being surrendered. I don't know whether you know about that. They had a white flag put up.

Q. And what happened before this white flag was put up?

A. Agreement.

Q. There was no blockade, no gunfire, no shooting, nothing?

A. It was agreed upon that no problems should be made, otherwise this barracks should not be surrendered. And these barracks could have fallen very easily, however, obviously orders had come from someone in Belgrade that the barracks should not be surrendered.

Q. So the barracks was supposed to be surrendered and then --

A. Like all others in Croatia. Like all others in Croatia that were being surrendered.

Q. All right. And then orders came from someone in Belgrade that 24538 they should not be surrendered, and then --

A. Well, from Belgrade or from Negoslavci, I don't know about that, but obviously somebody sent an order to that effect.

Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic. Let's just clarify this matter: You claim that there was no blockade, no shooting at the barracks, that a white flag was put up and that the barracks was supposed to be surrendered and that the fighting started later.

A. I was not present there, so I cannot tell you exactly.

Q. All right. Do you know about the order? Because it was issued to all office-holders in Vukovar, and you were sanitary inspector there. And this was done as far back as the 8th of September, 1991, that is to say, being on the ready, taking measures for readiness at the first degree, second degree, third level, rather, of the readiness. The third level of readiness restricts the movement of citizens in terms of time, and certain units are activated and so on and so forth.

Were you made aware of this order? There is a series of persons here who signed their names stating that they were familiarised with the order. This probably doesn't include your signature, but maybe you could recognise some of the other people. This is an order issued by Marin Vidic, Bili. This is the original language and could you just take a look at this and see whether you know any of the signators of this document.

A. Yes, I'll take a look. As for these signatures, I could not decipher them.

Q. All right.

JUDGE MAY: Just have a look at the document. Mr. Cakalic, do you 24539 recognise the document itself? Do you know what it is?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's a logical document. A certain government authority drafted this and warned all citizens of Vukovar that their movement is being restricted because Vukovar was being shelled and bombed all the time, and it was logical. All people were made aware of this. It's not only Croats; it's the entire population of Vukovar that was made aware of this. I don't know whether you know that Vukovar had 25 different ethnic groups amongst its population and town. Most of them were Croats, then Serbs, then all the rest. This is quite logical. Immediate preparations should be carried out in order to --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I understand all of this. Just look at the date, please.

A. The 8th of September.

Q. When was Vukovar bombed?

A. Well, I don't know the exact date when it was bombed, but I was in town. I went to inspect food at the workers centre and at the hotel, and that's when aircraft were flying and gunning the town.

Q. Gunning what?

A. Gunning down the citizens of Vukovar.

Q. Aircraft were flying and shooting at the 27 different ethnic groups of Vukovar?

A. You didn't understand me or you don't want to understand me. The airplanes of your state that often came to Vukovar during the day and during the night shot at the population. Did you understand me now?

Q. I understand. But when was this, sir? 24540 BLANK PAGE 24541

A. I don't know the date. From the month of September onwards, that happened every day. As a matter of fact, they even threw poison.

Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic. But at that time, it was my state and your state too. It wasn't only mine.

A. The referendum had already taken place, and it was your state, and I don't know who would attack his own state, and you were attacking it then, and I don't know who would attack his own state.

JUDGE MAY: Did you see the aircraft shooting people, Mr. Cakalic, yourself?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

JUDGE MAY: On one occasion or more than one occasion?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was repeated almost every day, until the fall of Vukovar.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. You cannot say when this happened.

A. Well, let's say it started around the month of September. I cannot tell you exactly. It's not that I --

Q. All right. All right.

A. I really cannot give you the exact date. Far be it --

Q. And do you know that as early as February 1991, that is to say, half a year or perhaps more than half a year before there was any kind of unrest or any kind of conflicts in Vukovar, at a meeting of the HDZ in Cerpinska Cest [phoen] and Borovo Naselje a decision was passed to ethnically cleanse Serbs in the territory of the municipality of Vukovar? Do you know anything about that? 24542

A. No. I did not belong to that political party.

Q. Did Mercep -- is Mercep from Bogdanovci?

A. Yes, but I think he lived in Vukovar.

Q. But he did have a house in Bogdanovci?

A. Yes, he did, he and his brothers, yes.

Q. You don't know anything about the meeting held in that house in Bogdanovci? At that time, Vladimir Seks was there, Ivan Vekic --

JUDGE MAY: Now, this is a waste of time, a total waste of time. You have now spent at least, if not over, half your time without asking this witness a single question about his evidence. He has narrated serious matters which happened to him and not a word of it have you challenged. If you're challenging it, you should do so now instead of dealing with matters which are totally irrelevant.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll hurry up, and I understand that you find all of this irrelevant, Mr. May.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, I do. In particular with this witness who knows nothing about it but who's come here to give serious evidence which you're refusing to cross-examine for some reason.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not refusing to cross-examine him at all, Mr. May. I'm not refusing to cross-examine him about his evidence but first I'm putting questions to him that have to do with the situation in Vukovar the time that his statement refers to, and these are circumstances under which all of this happened, and I believe all of this is relevant, as opposed to you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] 24543

Q. Do you know --

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

A. No.

Q. And do you know the name of Cibaric Nikola, nicknamed Sipka [phoen]?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know Sipos Zoran?

A. Not Sipos, but Cibaric I knew, and I still know him.

Q. Do you know that during the war operations that there was a shelter at the Borovo factory and it was called Novo Bucara [phoen]?

A. No. Commerc.

Q. There was a shelter in the Borovo factory by that name?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know, for example, that this Cibaric Nikola from this shelter and this other man who you don't know, that they took Serbs out of this shelter, liquidated them, shot them dead?

A. This is the first time I hear of this.

Q. I have a minute -- a document here, minutes of the information received, and it refers to Novo Bucara?

JUDGE MAY: He knows nothing about this, so move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that cannot be tendered either. Very well, Mr. May, we'll move on.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So you don't know anything about specifically on the 14th in 1991 people were taken out of this shelter and executed? 24544

JUDGE MAY: If you continue with these questions, the cross-examination will be brought to an end. You've been told that he knows nothing about it. It's irrelevant to him, irrelevant to us now. Now, move on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As you were a sanitary inspector, are you aware of Marin Vidic's decision from September 1991 that the bodies of JNA soldiers should not be buried in Vukovar but that they should be burned?

A. I'm not even aware of those bodies.

Q. Very well. Mr. Cakalic, you and your wife arrived at the Vukovar hospital on the 17th of November; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. At 2300 hours?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. On page 3, paragraph 2, you say that most Croats from your building went to the hospital and that all the Serbs and one Ukrainian remained in their apartments; is that right?

A. Yes. But they were with us all the time.

Q. But as you yourself say, Vukovar was endangered by shelling; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Shells don't choose whether they will hit a Serb, a Ukrainian, or a Croat, I assume.

A. Yes. There was a Serb to kill me -- he was assigned the task of 24545 killing me, and he was killed by his own shell. He didn't know this could happen.

Q. I'm just saying that you were threatened by shells used to bomb Vukovar, and the Croats went to seek shelter in the hospitals, whereas those same shells did not endanger the Serbs.

A. That day there was very little shooting, and when my wife and I -- I don't know whether you're familiar with Vukovar --

Q. No, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I was never there.

A. We were walking and they were shooting, sir, shooting. You understand? I was driving a wounded man the day before to the hospital. He had been wounded. And on my way back, they started shooting at me. I switched off the lights and moved to the side, and there were bullets whizzing by. You have no idea how it was. And this was coming from the right bank of the Danube.

Q. Yes, I understand. But let us cover these questions quickly, because my time is limited. Do you have any explanation for the fact that the Serbs did not seek shelter in the hospital? Was the hospital accessible only to Croats as shelter or to everyone?

A. No. They were safe. They had been informed what would happen and how it would happen. And let me tell you that when we were taken to Ovcara they didn't even check the identity of people and they even killed some Serbs.

Q. I'll come to that in a moment. Just tell me, please: You are not linking this failure of the Serbs being admitted to the hospital with a position of the director of the hospital, Vesna Bosanac. 24546

A. No, that has nothing to do with it.

Q. In the second paragraph, page 4, you say that in the hospital you saw Marin Vidic, the government representative for Vukovar.

A. Yes. And I was close by when Major Sljivancanin arrested him.

Q. And tell me, when did a JNA officer enter the hospital for the first time?

A. Then, when Marin was arrested.

Q. And you claim it was Major Sljivancanin, and he was accompanied by a warrant officer whose name was Bogdan Kuzmic.

A. Yes.

Q. Was he a reservist, a member of the TO?

A. He used to be the porter at the hospital.

Q. Let us not waste time. I assume you know that a lieutenant in the JNA has to be a graduate of the military academy. So he couldn't have been a porter at the hospital.

A. But you interrupted me. I was just going to say that. He was the porter at the hospital, the receptionist. He was escorting Major Sljivancanin when Vukovar was surrendered, when Vidic was arrested. I heard later on that he was taken to Belgrade for additional training to the military academy.

Q. That's something else. If he wanted to become an active officer later on. But in those days, he was a member of the TO of Vukovar, and he was Major Sljivancanin's guide because he used to work as a receptionist in the hospital.

A. Sir, no. He was wearing the uniform of the JNA with the ranks 24547 that I have mentioned.

Q. But the Territorial Defence wore the same, or maybe you don't know that.

On page 5 of your statement, you say that it became immediately clear to you that Sljivancanin was in charge of the operation.

A. Perhaps you were in charge of it; I don't know.

Q. Tell me, what kind of operation was Sljivancanin carrying out?

A. The arrest of Marin Vidic at 00 hours on the 19th. And then I saw him again on the 19th around 7.00, 7.30 maybe, or 7.00 roughly, him and Radic.

Q. Very well. Is it true that his behaviour was correct and that he didn't resort to any kind of violence?

A. Yes, it was correct. What I was able to see when he arrested Vidic and when he took him away from the hospital, yes. I don't know what happened afterwards.

Q. Vidic was later taken to the investigating court?

A. Yes, we met again in Mitrovica.

Q. So you didn't see any other JNA members on that occasion.

A. I said that I saw Captain --

Q. Oh, this receptionist.

A. No, no, Captain Radic.

Q. Very well. And is it true that Dr. Ivankovac and Dr. Matos on the 20th of November informed you that all persons without official IDs have to leave the hospital?

A. Yes. Vesna Bosanac and some others informed us. 24548

Q. And that they would be transferred in a convoy; is that right?

A. They didn't tell us where we would be transferred. However, I know where I was transferred, and you do too probably, and many others. My wife was also taken to Sremska Mitrovica and then returned to Croatia later.

Q. Tell me, please: Do you know who Dr. Vladimir Emedi is? Is he a doctor at the Vukovar hospital?

A. Yes, an orthopaedic surgeon.

Q. And tell me, please: In view of the fact that before the 17th of November, 1991, as you yourself say, you did go to the hospital, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see in it armed members of the ZNG, and how many of them?

A. No one. I didn't see anyone armed in the hospital.

Q. And this doctor that you say you knew, Vladimir Emedi --

A. I still know him.

Q. Very well. Said in his statement that Dr. Vesna Bosanac was --

JUDGE MAY: No. You can put some fact which this witness might know about, but he doesn't know about the statement of some other witness that you may have had or some statement that you've got. What is -- what is the allegation that you want to put? We'll see if this witness can deal with it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you know that members of the National Guards Corps, with the permission of the director of the hospital, Vesna Bosanac, were staying at 24549 the hospital, climbed to the roof of the hospital, from which they opened fire on JNA positions, on aircraft of the JNA, et cetera? Do you know about that?

A. And what were those aircraft doing in Vukovar? Shelling the hospital? Do you know that?

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cakalic, if you could just concentrate on the question.

When are you saying this happened, Mr. Milosevic? When is it that you say the ZNG were firing from the roof of the hospital?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Throughout that period, up until the fall of Vukovar -- after the fall of Vukovar.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cakalic, did you see anything like that yourself?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, it was impossible to climb to the roof of the hospital, because the hospital had already received a couple of shells. A 250-kilogramme bomb had fallen through the second, first floor and the ground floor and fell between the legs of a wounded man, and it didn't go off. Who would have dared to climb onto the roof of the hospital in those days? That is unbelievable. I hear that for the first time.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I hear what you are saying for the first time too, but I have information that from the roof of the hospital fire was opened on planes.

JUDGE MAY: No. He's denied it. He has denied it, so let's not waste further time on it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] 24550

Q. So you're claiming you didn't see any members of the ZNG within the hospital.

A. You asked me on the hospital.

Q. Well, you didn't climb to the roof.

A. You're asking me whether I saw them on the roof, whether they were members of the ZNG firing at Serbs.

Q. Did you see them in the hospital?

A. I was in the hospital for only three days.

Q. Did you see members of the ZNG?

A. No, not a single one. No.

Q. And did you recognise a certain number who had put on hospital uniforms that did not belong to the hospital?

A. Yes, I did recognise them. Do you know how I recognised them? In the busses. They were wearing white coats and they were all killed straight away.

Q. Those who were wearing white coats and who were not hospital staff.

A. Yes.

Q. After you left the hospital and went into the yard, you say you noticed two soldiers, one whose name was Pero from Bosnia and another one who was a Muslim; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know them from before?

A. No. I saw them for the first time on that occasion. But they were polite young men who cursed us from the very beginning. 24551

Q. Very well. Since you didn't know them from before, how did you know who was who, who's a Serb, who's a Muslim, and so on? They were soldiers.

A. This Pero escorted us in the convoy from Vukovar to Sremska Mitrovica.

Q. So in the bus you said that next to you was Tomislav Pap; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Sitting next to you.

A. Yes.

Q. Was this the person who, following Vidic's instructions, was burning the bodies of killed JNA soldiers?

A. Sir, I never heard of the burning of corpses in Vukovar.

Q. Fine. If you don't know about it, we'll move on. On page 7, you say that you were taken from the hospital to the barracks compound, where, as you say - and you mentioned that again a moment ago - you were insulted, threatened --

A. Not just me; everyone was.

Q. You said by some Chetniks of Montenegrin ethnicity; is that what you said?

A. I don't know what ethnicity they were. They wore those little red caps with fringes. Where are they from? Are they from Bosnia? Are they from Montenegro? Are they from Serbia? Are they from Croatia? I don't know.

Q. Those red caps with fringes are not worn in Serbia but in some 24552 parts of Croatia they are.

A. Yes, they're the caps worn in Lika, but that's something else.

Q. But the Montenegrin one doesn't have these fringes. And is it true that you recognised some other people in the barracks, some local Serbs from Vukovar?

A. Yes.

Q. And you had known them before the war too.

A. Yes.

Q. And from there you were transferred to Ovcara; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. I won't ask you anything about the glasses. You mentioned a captain -- so as not to waste time on that.

In 1993, you gave a statement to -- I think it was a lady, Kim Carter, something like that.

A. Yes. She's a colonel of the Canadian army.

Q. I see.

A. And she is a member of the Council of the International Court, I think she was. And also present was a gentleman, the pathologist who discovered Ovcara. I can't remember his surname now.

Q. Never mind. Let's not waste time. This is quite a lengthy statement and --

A. His name was Snow Clyde, I just remembered, the pathologist's name.

Q. You mentioned this captain on page 38 who was trying on glasses, et cetera, and you say he was a captain by rank. And then you say, 24553 "Probably a reservist."

A. I didn't know whether he was active duty or a reservist. Probably.

Q. I'm reading out what you said. I'm not suggesting that he was a reservist, I'm just reading what you said. You said, "Probably a reservist, and I saw that he couldn't button up his uniform."

A. Because it didn't fit him. It didn't fit him.

Q. I see, it didn't fit him. As opposed to other officers.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And then in some other assertions here you say that those men were dirty, disorderly, et cetera. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, it is true. We, too, were rather dirty and messy as well.

Q. Mr. Cakalic, is it clear from that that these were people who were not members of the JNA?

A. Sir, they were wearing JNA uniforms. Whether they belonged or not, I don't know. I don't know whether you know whether they belonged or not.

Q. I certainly don't know, but I assume, on the basis of the information I have, there were no JNA members at all at Ovcara, because it was -- these were local -- of course uniformed but local members of the armed forces, and that is why I'm asking you, because that's what I'm trying to establish.

A. There were three officers - one colonel and two lieutenant colonels - in Ovcara, and they were in charge of the whole parade that was happening over there, and another 12, up to 15 men came with baseball bats 24554 in a separate vehicle. And when they entered Ovcara, the gates closed.

Q. Sir, you're saying that the commander in the hospital was Major Sljivancanin, and here you're mentioning one colonel and two lieutenant colonels. Please separate the hospital from Ovcara.

JUDGE MAY: Do not interrupt the witness. Can you -- just a moment. Yes, go on, Mr. Cakalic. Let him finish. Just one at a time. Do you know -- yes.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask for pauses, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sljivancanin was in the hospital, and Sljivancanin appeared in the Vukovar barracks when they took us there from the hospital. And when we reached Ovcara, two lieutenant colonels and a colonel appeared, who came from somewhere. They appeared there after Dokmanovic had left from Ovcara.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. I'm very grateful to you for this. So we've established that Sljivancanin arrested Vidic, and he was anyway a security officer. He behaved correctly. And he took Vidic away. Vidic was later in prison and later -- it doesn't matter, for your evidence. So you didn't see Sljivancanin in Ovcara at all.

A. In Ovcara, no, but in the barracks, yes. He came to see us in the barracks.

Q. A major in the barracks, it was only logical for him to be there. Now you are saying two colonels and one lieutenant colonel. Do you have any idea as to how they could have been active JNA officers?

A. Yes, I do have an idea. Did you see the magazine Nasa Armija from 24555 the end of November?

Q. No, I didn't.

A. Do you know who was on the front page of that magazine? Mile -- what's his name, Mrksic. He liberated Vukovar. And I identified him when I received that magazine in Mitrovica. They gave us that magazine to read, and I compared him with the colonel who came to Ovcara.

JUDGE MAY: And just -- let's clarify that. And it's in fact, time for the adjournment.

You say you identified him. You identified him as the colonel, is that right, at Ovcara?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes. Mr. Cakalic, don't speak to anybody about your -- to anybody about your evidence until it's over. And would you be back in 20 minutes, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much more time do I have, Mr. May? [In English] How much time? [Interpretation] I was asking you how much more time will you give me.

JUDGE MAY: 12 minutes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 12 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, 12 minutes isn't enough. Twelve minutes isn't enough for this witness. 24556 BLANK PAGE 24557

JUDGE MAY: A quarter of an hour and then we'll consider the position.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, but I doubt it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Cakalic, I would like us to establish the truth of actually what happened there, so could you give me precise answers to the questions I'm asking you. You said that you recognised Colonel Mrksic. Did you recognise him on the basis of the photograph you later saw on that cover page of the magazine and you described him on the basis of the photograph or on the basis of what you saw over there?

A. When he entered Ovcara, the hangar of Ovcara, then a man came up, a soldier, and he said to the Chetniks there, Kuzmic and the others, said, "Colonel Mrksic is coming." There were two lieutenant colonels and one colonel so it was logical that Mrksic was the colonel. That's right, isn't it?

And when I was in Sremska Mitrovica in the camp there, we got the magazines Nasa Armija and Front, two magazines to read. And when I got this Nasa Armija, "Our Army" magazine, on the cover was this man whom I recognised as being Mrksic.

Q. Did he have a whistle?

A. I was outside the hangar, and somebody had a whistle and gave the order for when they were supposed to start beating.

Q. One witness, he was a protected witness so I can't read his name out, he was 1171 - that was his code - he said that there was a colonel and he described him as being a fat man with a whistle. Colonel Mrksic is 24558 not a fat man.

A. Well, I don't know who made that statement and testified. What I said is correct.

Q. Well, the colonel you saw, was he fat?

A. No, he wasn't.

Q. All right. Fine.

A. There was a Chetnik who was fat. He was about 150 to 160 kilogrammes, and he owned the baton that the major held.

Q. You said that you recognised some local Serbs who beat you, and among them Slavko Dokmanovic and a certain man called Milan Bulic, Dado Dukic, and Bogdan Kuzmic, as well as Stevan Miscevic.

A. Yes.

Q. And you say that before the war in Vukovar they sold fish; is that what you said?

A. Yes, that man Miscevic, he's a fisherman, he sold his own fish. He caught the fish. He was a fisherman himself.

Q. On page 9 you say you saw Kuzmic and Bulic beating a man called Samardzic, Damjan Samardzic at Ovcara, nicknamed Kemo?

A. And they killed him.

Q. Is it clear that Kuzmic and Bulic were not members of the JNA, either of them? Isn't that right?

A. Well, they were paramilitary units. They were in paramilitary units.

Q. That's all I wanted to establish. Right. Now, Mr. Cakalic, together with you in the bus, you mentioned a moment ago during the 24559 examination in chief Vilim Karlovic; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said in passing that he is a major in the Croatian army to this day; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. He's a major, a Bojnik, as they call him.

Q. All right, Bojnik, then, meaning major. Isn't it clear that thereby you are denying your assertion that in the hospital and with you there were no people who were members of the armed forces of Croatia?

A. I didn't know he was in the army at the time.

Q. You didn't know he was in the army at the time?

A. No. He was a patient in the hospital, I think.

Q. Well, I don't suppose you're disputing the fact that he was in the army.

A. That's what I learnt later on, yes. I heard of that later..

Q. That's what I wanted to establish, thank you.

A. He's in the army today too.

Q. You claim at Ovcara a Serb member of the Territorial Defence by the name of Stevo Zoric, nicknamed Cevo, saved you; is that right?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And throughout your statement you refer to Serbs in two ways; you either say "Chetniks" or you say "soldiers"; is that right?

A. Well, I don't know. Do you call them anything else? Chetniks are one thing. They needn't only be Serbs. They can be Montenegrins too. 24560

Q. Yes, all right. Fine. But you, for instance, spoke about a certain major, and a moment ago when you spoke about that particular major you said that it was a major who had a large cockade, cap.

A. That's wrong. That's a mistake. No, that's not what I said. The major was given this electric baton from the Chetnik, the large one that I said weighed at least 130, 40 kilogrammes, 2 metres high. He had an enormous knife this big tucked into his belt, and that Chetnik said to that major, "Don't use it. There are a lot of witnesses, lots of eyewitnesses."

Q. I thought I heard you say that the major with the large cockade was there.

A. No, you misunderstood. The major is one man, the man with the cockade is another. They are two people.

Q. All right. We can check it out in the transcript, but we don't have time to do that now. You said that the major's name was Lukic and that later on he took the name of Ivanovic. So how do you explain this, him having two surnames?

A. Now, whether it was a pseudonym or not, I don't know. But the fact is that they called him -- one man came up and said, "Major Lukic is coming." Or rather, those three officers, the two lieutenant colonels and one colonel. "They're coming and let's go outside." That is what Lukic said. And when I heard him being called by his surname in Negoslavci, Major Ivanovic, I saw that it was one and the same man.

Q. All right. Thank you. Now, either in the hospital or at Velepromet or at Ovcara did you see a single JNA soldier kill any of the 24561 detainees? I'm asking you whether you saw a single soldier, a single JNA soldier kill a single detainee.

A. No.

Q. You didn't?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. And is it true that at Ovcara you noticed a young member of the Territorial Defence and you say that his name was Guja and the son of a Serb woman by the name of Mirjana Guga.

A. He was the person who opened and closed the hangar and he was wearing the JNA uniform, not at Ovcara, not in the hangar itself, actually outside the hangar. He was in front of the hangar.

Q. In front of the hangar, right.

A. Yes.

Q. And is it true that he cursed your Ustasha grandmother and cursed his uncle who was a tradesman in Autobacka and said that he would kill him if the opportunity ever arose? Is that right?

A. Yes, that is quite true.

Q. And this young man, was his father a Croat?

A. Yes.

Q. And his surname was Molnar?

A. Yes, Molnar.

Q. And the other surname was his mother's maiden name, right?

A. Yes.

Q. This is what it says on -- in your statement. It says: "At the time, the military guard was held by Guja, and he swore at our Ustasha 24562 mother though he was a Croat himself, and he didn't like his uncle either." He said he'd kill him if the opportunity ever arose.

A. Yes. That's quite right.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like to draw your attention, gentlemen, to how in this trial, in these proceedings, certain witnesses are being used who quite obviously have something to do with the crime and they are accusing innocent people, and those witnesses are being used as witnesses although --

JUDGE MAY: This is not the time for you to make submissions. Now, what is the question you want to ask the witness?

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is it true that in that same statement, on the page ending in number 86, when you described the people who beat the detainees in the hangar at Ovcara, that they used the term "Chetniks"?

A. Yes. The Chetniks of Vukovar, that was the expression.

Q. So these weren't members of the JNA.

A. That's right. This young man was outside the hangar. We've settled that one, haven't we?

Q. Yes. And is it true that you said that while you were at the Velepromet, in the room you were in, that a captain of the military police came into the room and told you to get ready to leave because the Chetniks could turn up at any moment ready to slaughter you all? Is that what you said?

A. Yes, that's correct. And I say the same thing here and now. "Do you want to tell me something else," he said. "Go on." He said, "Come 24563 on, people, I'll take you to the barracks because the Chetniks will come, they're all drunk and they'll kill you all." And he introduced himself as being Captain Kosa [phoen]. And I said, "Captain, do you give us your word that that's how it will be?" And he said yes. So we came to the yard and the busses, he couldn't switch the engines of the bus on and the Chetniks were coming in and he managed to switch the motor on and took us to the barracks.

Q. All right. Now, tell me, I assume you differentiate between the representatives of the JNA and these people whom you say were drunk, and that there was the danger of them killing you there.

A. In this particular case, I am deeply grateful to that captain.

JUDGE MAY: Now, you must pause. Pause for the interpreters, please, both of you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right. Now, do you consider that had he handed you over, that you really would have been killed?

A. I do believe that I would have been killed, yes.

Q. And is it quite clear that this representative of the JNA - it's not important what rank he had or anything else - for whom you say was a captain of the military police in fact saved your life?

A. He was a KOS captain, counterintelligence.

Q. All right. A security captain. Well, it's the counterintelligence service, actually. That's the translation of KOS; is that right?

A. All right then. Yes. 24564

Q. Now, do you consider the captain saved your life?

A. Yes, he saved all our lives, all of us who survived that.

Q. Well, were you able to establish from that fact then that the JNA endeavoured to protect you under the circumstances and everything that was happening in Vukovar at the time?

A. Not the JNA; it was that individual, sir, that particular KOS captain, who gave us his name and surname, which I'm afraid I haven't remembered. He was a little shorter than me. He was very proper and correct in his conduct and he said, "Come on, people. Get ready to leave. We've come to take you off in a bus and we'll take you all away from here." Whereas, the other members of JNA who were in the barracks behaved quite differently. First of all, they received us, gave us some water, something to eat, they took us in. And after that -- but I suppose you'll come to that. I don't want to jump the gun here.

Q. What happened to you? Were you mistreated by the JNA soldiers?

A. In the barracks.

Q. So you said in the barracks there were members of some paramilitaries as well, paramilitary formations.

A. I don't think you've understood me. I said I was taken prisoner in Vukovar hospital, taken to the barracks, from the barracks to Ovcara, from Ovcara to Velepromet, from Velepromet to Modateks, then back to Velepromet and from Velepromet with that captain, the KOS captain, taken back to the barracks. That was my route.

Q. All right. And that captain saved you.

A. Yes. 24565

Q. And did anything happen to any of you after that?

A. Well, yes. It happened in the barracks.

Q. Was anybody killed in the barracks?

A. Not in the barracks, no. But many guys were beaten, and a young boy of about 18 had to swallow bullets.

Q. All right. But is it clear that the people whom you thought were coming to kill you were not members of the JNA?

A. The ones in the barracks were members of the JNA.

Q. I'm not talking about the ones who were in the barracks but the ones who were coming in to kill you and the ones that the captain of KOS saved you from.

A. He said that the Chetniks are coming. And when we got out of Velepromet to go into the busses, we heard their songs. You know the ones they sing.

Q. All right. But is it clear that the crime at Ovcara was not committed by members of the JNA? Is that clear?

A. Oh, sir, I didn't watch them carry on killing. I just saw them kill Kemo and Damjan Samardzic in Ovcara itself. And we were driven off at around 7.00 from Ovcara to Velepromet, then Modateks, and then from Modateks back to Velepromet and then back to the barracks, as I said a moment ago.

Q. Yes, you've described that to us very well. So this officer of the JNA saved you. You and that group of men.

A. Yes. And if you know him, say hello to him for me.

Q. Unfortunately, I don't know him personally. But he saved you from 24566 a band of men that could not have belonged to the JNA, a formation not belonging to the JNA.

A. Those formations were members of the JNA, the ones that took us to the Velepromet were the Chetniks.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE MAY: I've stopped the -- I've stopped the microphone. You've now had rather more than the quarter of an hour we've promised. We've considered the situation in this case. We will give you another five minutes. We're not going to give you more because of the time that was spent and wasted earlier on on irrelevant cross-examination. You've got five minutes left.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. All right, Mr. Cakalic. Now, can we clarify this: When you were taken over from Ovcara by the office of the JNA --

A. Not from Ovcara, sir, from Velepromet.

Q. All right. From Velepromet, I mean. Then nobody after that was killed.

A. Right. Of the seven of us who were saved, that's who I'm talking about. The ones that stayed at Ovcara, that's another matter.

Q. That's another matter, yes. And there was no JNA formation there. I assume you know that.

A. Well, it wasn't a formation but there were those three officers, as I told you. That was at some other time, much later.

Q. You said that the JNA held the prison in Sremska Mitrovica; is that right? 24567

A. Yes.

Q. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. The army?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know that in Sremska Mitrovica there's a regular prison. Does that mean that part of the prison was handed over to these forces who brought in captives from Vukovar, detainees from Vukovar?

A. Yes, and from other places too.

Q. All right, fine. Now, did you have occasion to meet any representative of the authorities, except for the members of the army?

A. The authorities, no. But journalists did come.

Q. How long were you in Sremska Mitrovica?

A. A little less than three months.

Q. And how did they behave towards you in Sremska Mitrovica during those three months?

A. Differently at different times. For example, when we arrived in Sremska Mitrovica - and I've already said how we were beaten outside and then in the sports hall and then outside again --

Q. Yes, you mentioned that. As far as I remember, you mentioned a paramilitary formation; right?

A. You mean in Sremska Mitrovica?

Q. Yes.

A. No, I didn't say paramilitary formation. Not at all. There were -- the highest rank I saw there was a colonel, and the lowest was a 24568 private -- a corporal.

Q. What was his name, this --

A. I don't know. I never learnt his name, and he didn't want to give us his name.

Q. But it was part of the prison used by the armed forces; right?

A. Yes. And before that, it was the condemned convicts who were there.

Q. And did anything happen to anybody in Sremska Mitrovica? Was anybody killed?

A. Two or three minutes before midnight every night we would hear 10 to 15 shots fired. Every night. And the casualties in Sremska Mitrovica, when we were divided up into the rooms, I said Niko Soljic was killed. He was beaten to death, kicked to death in fact.

Q. Who killed him?

A. Well, who could have been there in Sremska Mitrovica? Just the army, nobody else. No paramilitary units or anything of that kind could have been there, except on Saturdays and Sundays, the ones who came in from Vukovar.

Q. All right. But you said that they would come from Vukovar when the army wasn't in the prison, when the soldiers weren't in the prison.

A. It was like this: You couldn't leave a prison without the army; that is quite sure. But at that time, we didn't see a single officer or a single soldier in actual fact. They had withdrawn and gave a chance to these others to take it out on the people there. And if you ask me, it was the warden of the prison who was to blame, because they should have 24569 been governed by the international rules.

Q. Well, nobody is questioning that. But they were coming from Vukovar, and you say that Goran Hadzic was there - I made a note of that - Boro Savic, and Branko Kovacevic, a judge.

A. But they didn't do the beating. They did the interrogation. I said they interviewed me, interrogated me, Goran Hadzic and Boro Savic, but that the guard in front of the door was Branko Kovacevic, a judge of the Vukovar court. So those two, the primitive people, he stood guard for them.

Q. You even said that this judge had a baseball bat.

A. Which judge?

Q. Well, this Branko Kovacevic. The judge that you say had a baseball bat.

A. No, he had a baton, a club, a white one, this big, a truncheon. Goran didn't beat me, neither did the other one. But when I was walking down the other corridor, that's when I was beaten.

Q. Okay.

A. No, it's not okay.

Q. I didn't mean it in that sense, all right? I meant it in the sense of your answer, of you having given me an answer. So these people who came from Vukovar to interrogate you, to question you, to talk to you, they did so to learn something, to get some information from you. Did they beat you?

A. No, they didn't beat me. I'm telling you this for the third time. Goran Hadzic or Boro Savic didn't beat me, nor did the judge beat me. 24570 When we were taken further away from them - and I think this was either in the basement or the ground floor - I was on the third floor, so between the ground floor, up the stairs to the third floor, that was when I was beaten.

Q. Do you think that Boro Savic or Goran Hadzic or this man Branko Kovacevic had anything to do with this mistreatment of you?

A. How should I know?

Q. Well, what did they ask you? What kind of things did they ask you?

A. They asked me how many Serbs there were in the Croatian army, whether they had been mobilised. I said yes, they had been mobilised and I gave them the names and surnames of the people who had been mobilised. They were good soldiers, they asked me, were they? And I said, yes, they were good soldiers. One of them has an officer's pension today. He's retired with an officer's pension.

JUDGE MAY: No. This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic, your last question.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had been mobilised.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And how many in all were there soldiers in Vukovar, of the Croatian ones, the Croatian National Guards Corps and all the rest of them? Because you told us how many Serbs there were in the army, I assume you know the Croats.

A. I know two of them, because they were from my own building. So I know these two particular ones. As to how -- what the total was, I really 24571 can't say. And I don't think it exists in the annals and records either.

Q. All right. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would like to ask the witness kindly to explain only a few things in relation to what happened in the hospital and around the hospital. That is why I would like to ask you, Your Honours, to look at tab 2, page 4, second paragraph.

Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Q. [Interpretation] And the first thing I would like to ask you is the following: You were in the hospital on the 17th, 18th, and 19th, and on the 20th you left.

A. Yes.

Q. I'm not going to ask you again about all these things you already spoke of in relation to the appearance of Major Sljivancanin, but please look at page 4 of your statement, the one you gave to the investigators on the 18th of June, 1995. There is a sentence in that particular paragraph: "I personally did not see any other soldiers of the so-called JNA or Chetniks inside the hospital at that time." That's what you stated. Is that right? That during those three days you didn't?

A. Well, they couldn't have been there because Vukovar had not fallen and the -- the hospital, rather, had not fallen. That's when they appeared, Sljivancanin and this --

Q. No, I'm not asking you about Sljivancanin. You said that "At that time, apart from Sljivancanin and Kuzmic I personally did not see any 24572 BLANK PAGE 24573 other soldiers of the so-called JNA or Chetniks inside the hospital at the time. I mean, those three days, until the 20th."

A. On the 20th, in the morning, Sljivancanin appeared yet again -- Radic.

Q. I'm not asking you about that. I'm asking you about these three days.

A. Those three days? No.

Q. Right. Please look at this statement that you gave. And I received this as a document along with your statement. This is what you told the investigating judge, Zvonko Kuharic. "On the 13th of December, 1993 --"

A. Is this an official note?

Q. No. No, it's not the official note. I'll give it to you straight away for you to have a look at it as soon as I read what you said happened on the 18th of November. This is what you said here: "That night, from the yard, gunfire could be heard, small arms gunfire, and Duvnjak Stanko and Mandic Marko were killed then because they fell into the hands of the Chetniks. At any rate, during that night I noticed that the Chetniks had different uniforms, those that were locally made and those that were foreign made. From time to time, they would barge into the hospital, and that's where there were patients mostly and those civilians who had sought shelter there. Whoever they recognised, they took out and there's been no trace of these people." So this was on the 18th of November.

A. That's when the hospital fell. When Mr. Sljivancanin took Marin Vidic, that's when this happened, afterwards. 24574

Q. You said that nobody entered the hospital for three days, and this happened on the 18th of November, and that's what you described. Please take a look at this.

A. Well, perhaps I got a bit confused, but I'm telling you the truth now. This happened at the moment when Mr. Sljivancanin went out with Marin Vidic. That's when the hospital fell. That's when the hospital fell. Do you understand what I'm saying? It was on the 17th or the 18th -- it was between the 18th and the 19th, at midnight.

Q. And then you say the Chetniks barged in?

A. Yes.

Q. There is no JNA there.

A. Kuzmic was in the JNA. He came there and he talked to me.

Q. No, please, not then. Those three days.

A. I really have no idea what I should say to you now.

Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something else.

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether this statement can be exhibited. Perhaps the Court would require this statement. It's for you to judge.

JUDGE MAY: We've got a huge amount of material.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir --

MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Can you tell me something in relation to the hospital. In the hospital you met Batarelo Zeljko.

A. Yes.

Q. Again, what I'm telling you now -- 24575

A. He was killed, yes.

Q. I'm using this information on the basis of the statement that you gave that I got from the OTP. When you were in hospital, did Mr. Batarelo Zeljko tell you that he --

A. Yes.

Q. That he had tried to penetrate the railroad across the bridge but they couldn't get there?

A. Yes.

Q. Krsic Slavko [phoen] was killed there and Simo Bandelin [phoen]; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And Batarelo got into a ditch?

A. Yes.

Q. Where he spent the night and then he came to the hospital?

A. Yes.

Q. He was not wounded.

A. No.

Q. So he sought shelter there at the hospital.

A. We were there together for one night.

Q. And how many more people were in the hospital who had not been wounded at all and who had taken part in the fighting?

A. What a strange question. I mean, people who took part in the fighting and who had not been wounded. Well, those people who were in the hospital did not take part in the fighting at all except for the wounded.

Q. Were there people like Batarelo who did take part in this 24576 penetration and then he sought shelter in the hospital?

A. I also wanted to be part of this penetration, breaking-up, because we all wanted to save ourselves. We didn't want to meet the military or paramilitaries in Vukovar because we knew what awaited us.

Q. This is my last question: Before you said that in hospital there were people who were members of the ZNG and who had not been wounded --

A. Who had been wounded.

Q. Thank you. Thank you. MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I have no redirect. There is one matter that I wanted to bring to the Court's attention that came up in proofing. I don't know that it's appropriate to discuss that in front of the witness. If -- if perhaps the Court has no questions, if the witness could withdraw but remain available to answer any questions if necessary.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. We've got one document, the registrar reminds me.

Mr. Milosevic, it's one of your documents. It's dated the 18th of September, 1991. The witness did recognise it. Do you want it exhibited, this one, 18th of September? It was an order of some sort.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

JUDGE MAY: We'll give it the next D number.

THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 167, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes. It's pointed out it was the 8th of September, not the 18th. Mr. Cakalic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You're free to go. 24577

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask the Honourable Presiding Judge something, please, by your leave? Just two minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Well, it's not normal, quite honestly, but we'll see. If you want to raise something very briefly, you can raise it. We'll see what it is.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say this now?


THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic --


THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I have a request. I have a request. I have something to ask him.

JUDGE MAY: No. I'm afraid -- I'm afraid not. We can't allow you to ask him questions here. But thank you very much for coming.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. McKeon. MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I just wanted to bring to the Court's attention that during proofing we did show the witness a series of photographs, and this is because he said that Colonel Mrksic, he identified him as being at Ovcara. Amongst the photographs we showed him were photographs of Mrksic, and he was not able to identify him as the colonel or as somebody that he had seen.

JUDGE MAY: You make that as a formal admission. MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. And that will be noted. 24578

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: Yes. The next witness, I understand, has protective measures and we'll need to take the precautions.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Are we likely to finish his evidence today? It seems unlikely, given the time estimate.

MR. GROOME: I think not, Your Honour. I would hope to finish the examination in chief and then hopefully there will be time for his cross-examination to begin.

JUDGE MAY: He'll be back next Tuesday.

MR. GROOME: Yes, I've already discussed that with the witness and he's available at the Court's convenience.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might raise a matter while we're waiting for the witness. There are a series of documents that we will use with the witness. They are his personnel records, and we will be asking that they be tendered under seal. It will be far more expeditious if we are able to use the Sanction system, but that would require the amici not to have their monitors turned on to the Sanction system but simply to use the binders that they've been provided. If they're willing to do that, I think it would be the better way to proceed.

MR. KAY: Yes.

MR. GROOME: Thank you. And if I could ask that two exhibit numbers -- well, the registrar is not here, so I'll ...

[The witness entered court] 24579

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat. Yes, Mr. Groome, when the witness is ready.

MR. GROOME: Just while we're waiting, if I could ask that two exhibit numbers be assigned. One is a binder of 12 tabs of exhibits, and the other is a binder with one exhibit that I'll be just asking be marked for identification.

THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 505 for the binder.

JUDGE MAY: It will be convenient to deal with the other one when we get to it.

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. That's fine.

JUDGE MAY: Let's deal simply with the binder at the moment. Examined by Mr. Groome:

Q. Sir, pursuant to an order of the court to protect your identity, I will refer to you as B-127 during the course of your evidence here today. I would ask that we begin your testimony by asking that you be shown Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 1. And my question to you is: Is that your name printed at the top of the very first line of that document?

A. Yes, that's my name.

Q. And does that document accurately record your educational and professional background? 24580 The witness is indicating he was not able to hear my question. I'll repeat it: Does that Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 1, accurately reflect your educational and professional background?

A. Yes.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there are a few more biographical questions I would seek to ask. I'd ask that we go into private session for that purpose.


[Private session]
















[redacted] 24581 Page 24581 - redacted - private session


[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


Q. Sir, in Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 1, you describe your ethnic background as being Yugoslav. Do you characterise yourself as being a Yugoslav?

A. I still declare myself that way. It has to do with the following: From the 6th of April, 1992, I always felt that I was a Yugoslav officer.

Q. Now, sir, others who might seek to classify you into one of the three groups, either Croat, Muslim, or Serb, how would they classify you? If they wanted to put you into one of those ethnicities, what would you be considered?

A. In terms of ethnicity, in that form, others classified me as a Muslim. When I say "Muslim," I'm not referring to religious affiliation, I am talking about belonging to a nation, to an ethnic group.

Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992. Were you stationed in Banja Luka during that time period?

A. Yes. That's correct.

Q. Were you present during the takeover of Banja Luka by Serb forces?

A. Yes. I was there throughout this period of time, and I was a witness to everything that happened. From 1990, my place of residence was Banja Luka, so I was there all the time.

Q. Can I ask you to characterise for the Chamber the level of fighting that occurred between different sides or different factions during the takeover of Banja Luka in the spring of 1992. 24583

A. In the spring of 1992, there was some street fighting -- or rather, there was not any street fighting or any such activity. It has to do with the following: The Serb defence forces -- or to be -- to put it in our language, the SOS took over Banja Luka. And since then, it's been under Serb authority. It has to do with the following: There wasn't any fighting. These units simply took over, both the key facilities in town, the municipality, the bridges, the entrances into town. During those days, Banja Luka was sealed off. But if we are to talk about fighting, there wasn't any to talk about.

Q. Can I ask you to give -- describe in a little greater detail what you know about this SOS. Were they paramilitaries, police? Can you give a few more details about that group.

A. At that time, in 1992, that is to say, March/April 1992, these units were established from the reservists who were in the theatre of war in Eastern Slavonia and throughout Croatia and had returned to Banja Luka. At that point in time, they were considered to be paramilitary units.

Q. Can you describe how the non-Serb population of Banja Luka was treated after this SOS group took over the town.

A. As for the non-Serb population, suffice it to say that it is a fact that when the SOS took over, the representatives of other parliamentary members did not have access to the city assembly. As for ordinary people, there is nothing worth mentioning.

Q. When you referred to other parliamentary members, are you talking elected representatives that were of non-Serb ethnicity?

A. Correct. These are delegates, MPs, non-Serbs who were elected in 24584 the legal and legitimate elections in 1991 in the municipality of Banja Luka.

Q. Did there come a time when non-Serbs in Banja Luka began to lose their jobs?

A. From then onwards, all employed persons who were non-Serbs lost their jobs. They were quite simply dismissed or they were told not to come to work at all.

Q. Now, during the time that the SOS paramilitaries took over the town and the non-Serbs were being fired from their jobs, can you give the Chamber some sense of the level of JNA presence in the town during that time period.

A. In that period of time, the Yugoslav People's Army was present with all its units, and there weren't any clashes between the SOS units and the army units. Later on, agreement was reached concerning the fact that there was one single objective involved and that practically the town was in Serb hands and that it wasn't necessary to have any major security forces in the streets of Banja Luka. Rather, activities should be geared towards the frontline.

Q. Are you able to estimate for the Chamber the approximate number of JNA troops that were actually present in Banja Luka during this time period?

A. All the units were present there. However, a fact should be mentioned in this respect, and that is that this is a period of time when non-Serbs in the ranks of the Yugoslav People's Army were leaving the army and had left it altogether. As for the Yugoslav People's Army at that 24585 point in time, it was practically a Serb army.

Q. Are you familiar with a paramilitary group that referred to themselves as the Wolves from Vucjak?

A. Yes, I am familiar with them, and I did have some contact with them.

Q. Did you have conversations with members of that group?

A. Yes. This happened in 1991, in the month of November, during the capture of the TV transmitter of TV Sarajevo in those days and turning around that same transmitter to broadcast the signals of Radio Television Serbia. Or rather, in those days it was Belgrade Radio Television.

Q. Did members of that unit indicate to you where they had been for their training?

A. Yes. I spoke to them in an office as they had asked us to assist them in food, quartermaster supplies. And during those conversations, they told us that they had completed training in Knin and that actually they had been trained by Captain Dragan over there.

Q. Did some of the members of this unit wear a distinctive piece of head gear?

A. They were men which had non-establishment weapons, and they were not clothed in a uniform manner.

Q. Can you please describe their uniform or what they wore as best as you can recall.

A. In those days, they wore camouflage uniforms which were still not widespread among members of the JNA in those days, and these were different kinds of uniforms but mostly camouflage. 24586

Q. Can you describe the uniform in as much detail as you can, including any head gear that they wore.

A. Each one of them wore a red beret, camouflage uniforms that were olive-green grey, which up until then were not present within our units, and the beret was either on their heads or at their belt.

Q. Now, are you familiar with the person by the name of Captain Pavic from this time period?

A. The then-company commander was Pavic. He had contact with them, and in those days those men who had come to take control of the transmitters of TV Sarajevo were considered a danger for the unit, and so he undertook certain steps to protect the unit, so that he informed General Uzelac about all this.

Q. And did he make a request of General Uzelac regarding this unit?

A. The request was that in view of the fact that these men were considered to be paramilitaries, the request was for those men to leave the transmitter area; otherwise, General Uzelac would ask for aid from Zeljevo [phoen] airport for two MiG planes to come and destroy the transmitter.

Q. Did they respond to that threat?

A. After that, they picked up their equipment and left the transmitter of TV Sarajevo. But after that, the TV Sarajevo transmitter continued to broadcast the signal of Television Belgrade.

Q. If I can now turn your attention to mosques in the Banja Luka municipality. Were you present during the destruction of a large number of those mosques? 24587

A. Yes, I was present there. In those days I performed the duties of the man on duty in the Vrbas Barracks. I'm referring to the month of May. Between the 7th and the 8th of May, 1992, I was on duty and I was a witness of those events.

Q. During that time period, was there any fighting in and around Banja Luka?

A. I wish first of all to make a correction. I may have said 1992, but I really meant 1993.

Q. The correction is noted. Was there any fighting during that time period, of 1993 -- May of 1993?

A. In that period, in the town of Banja Luka there was no fighting whatsoever. I was on duty at the Vrbas Barracks, and if there had been any fighting, I would have known it, either from the person who was on duty in the garrison or -- and there were no events that would resemble any kind of combat activity or herald any combat activity.

Q. What did you witness that night that -- what did you witness that night in connection with the destruction of mosques?

A. In view of the location of the Vrbas Barracks, I couldn't see anything, but I could hear, around 3.00 a.m,. two very powerful explosions in town.

Q. Now, prior to this day, if there had been emergencies in the town, were you able to hear from the barracks the sounds of fire department sirens, and police sirens?

A. I didn't hear any of that.

Q. Would you ordinarily have been able to hear sirens of those two 24588 BLANK PAGE 24589 departments in the event of other emergencies in the town?

A. Of course. One would have heard if there was any large-scale activity.

Q. The next day or the morning of the same day, did you go to visit the sites from where you heard the explosions?

A. After I handed over duty, I headed home. And on the way home, as I walked, I saw that the Ferhadija mosque had been destroyed and bulldozers had already arrived to clear up the rubble. Around the mosque, there was a lot of broken glass, and the police of the Banja Luka MUP was providing security around the destroyed mosque.

Q. And what was -- were the sites of some of the destroyed mosques turned into other uses?

A. The place where the Ferhadija mosque used to stand was subsequently covered with concrete, the area was cleared, and all that remained was the ancillary building of the mosque, and I think it's still there.

Q. Were you present in Banja Luka when a Catholic church was destroyed in a similar fashion?

A. In 1995, after the fall of Eastern Slavonia, what happened was that the Catholic church was destroyed as a kind of revanchism in retaliation, in fact, for the fall of Eastern Slavonia.

Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to a person commonly known as Arkan. Did there come a time when members of your unit were deployed in the same area where Arkan's men was operating?

A. In addition to the basic tasks the unit had, our unit was also 24590 occasionally assigned additional tasks on the frontline. I'm referring to infantry assignments. And we engaged in these as assistance on the frontline.

In 1995, this unit was in the region of Drvar, where it had been assigned to secure that part of the frontline, and certain events happened which involved, among other things, the wounding of an officer of the Army of Republika Srpska, and there was some looting, looting of Serb houses by Arkan's men. Serb houses among others.

Q. You spoke about the wounding of an officer. Were Arkan's men implicated in the wounding of that VRS officer?

A. That man was performing his duty as he was ordered to do. He was on duty for 15 days on the frontline. That was his shift. And when he was due to go home because the regular replacement had arrived --

Q. Sir --

A. -- he was caught --

Q. I apologise for interrupting. The particular circumstances aren't as important as whether or not Arkan was implicated or Arkan's men were implicated in the wounding of that officer.

A. Yes. Yes, that is true.

Q. Was there a response from the VRS command with respect to the wounding of this officer? And if so, what was it?

A. The reaction was as follows: After a report as to what was going on over there, General Ninkovic sent a report to General Mladic, and General Mladic actually ordered Arkan's men to be kicked out. And after that, he was no longer in the region. As far as I know, he reappeared in 24591 Eastern Slavonia.

Q. Now if I can draw your attention to the period of time when the JNA officially withdrew from Bosnia and the Army of Republika Srpska or VRS was formed. Were you present in Banja Luka during that time period?

A. I was in Banja Luka throughout that time.

Q. I'm going to ask you to describe in a -- on a theoretical level how the names of units were changed. I will ask to go into private session for you to tell us the specific change that was made to your unit. So can you tell us just generally, were the names of the JNA units altered? And if so, how?

A. As far as changes in the numerical name of the unit is concerned, they did happen, and the unit, for instance, that withdrew from Croatia was given a certain number in front of its basic number.

MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we go into private session briefly for you -- for the witness to describe his particular unit.

[Private session]









[redacted] 24592












[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


Q. Sir, I would now like to ask you to deal with the topic of what happened to the equipment of the former JNA as it withdrew from Slovenia, Croatia, and then eventually Bosnia. Can you describe in general terms what happened to that equipment.

A. In concrete terms, the equipment of the former Yugoslav People's Army in units that were located within the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia -- for example, MiG 29 planes flew to Batajnica and some other resources, but in that period quite a lot of the equipment that belonged to the unit remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. And was that equipment evenly distributed among the Bosnian government and the Republika Srpska government, or can you describe in 24593 greater detail who it was left to?

A. We are talking about the period of the spring of 1992, when the Muslims and Croats had already abandoned the ranks of the units of the JNA, and that equipment belonged only to the Army of Republika Srpska that was formed in those days. There's no question of any distribution. Any reference along those lines is not serious.

Q. When the JNA withdrew from Slovenia, did you become aware of air navigation equipment that was removed from Cerklje [phoen] air force base in Slovenia?

A. That's not the right name. We are talking about the Crklje airport that was located in Slovenia, and a mixed air brigade that was situated in Slovenia was dislocated to Mahovljani airport near Banja Luka. However, that brigade was called 92, and the number 8 was added in front.

Q. Now, the Chamber has heard some evidence about a no-fly zone and its establishment. Can I ask you to describe the geographical area that was the subject of the no-fly zone in Bosnia.

A. With the introduction of the no-fly zone, depending on the time we're talking about, flights could be carried out only with special permission from UN command.

Q. And what area was subjected to this no-fly zone?

A. The area covered the entire territory of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. Based upon your duties and the information that you had access to officially, were you aware of violations of this no-fly zone? 24594

A. Violations of the no-fly zone did occur, and it was sometimes necessary to do so, and it happened mostly in the edges, that is, the area of the Ponikve Crklje airport, an airport located near Titovo Uzice.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 4. There are actually two documents in this tab, Your Honour. The Prosecution is withdrawing the second of these documents, which end in ERN number 5868, and is asking that the witness be shown the single document which remains ending in ERN 4149.

Q. Sir, can I ask you to take a look at this document. And if you're able, can you describe what is contained in this document. Sir, I'm going to draw your attention to a particular portion of that document on the television screen in front of you. You have the entire document there to place it in context. Can you summarise just in general terms what that document is.

A. First of all, this document basically consists of instructions for command and coordinated action in PVO and air support. It was compiled by the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, approved by General Ratko Mladic. And in that document, this part has to do with coordinated action by PVO and air support from Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of Yugoslavia. The aim was to define the separation belt, exchange of information on the situation in the air space, exchange of officers for coordinated action at command posts, exchange of announcement of flights, and preparation of joint plans on the use of forces, and the preparation of the coordinated action plan, that is, with the command of -- in Yugoslavia and the air forces in the Republic of Serbian Krajina. 24595

Q. Can I now draw your attention to a particular part of that document on the television screen before you and ask for your comment on that particular portion. And that is paragraph 3 of the document -- or section 3. And if you would, would you explain the significance of this order with respect to the no-fly zone.

A. This document prescribes all activities -- could you please repeat your question.

Q. Can you please place this order into the context of the no-fly zone. What -- what relationship does it have or what relevance does it have to the imposition of a no-fly zone over Bosnia?

A. These are instructions for the activities of units prescribed on the basis of the situation that has set in and with the introduction of the no-fly zone for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. If these instructions are followed, would it permit violations of the no-fly zone to go undetected by international peacekeepers and observers present?

A. Every army seeks to conceal its traces, violations of certain rules which had been prescribed at that point in time. In one of the orders, in fact, and instructions, it is said how this should be done if such flights were to be discovered.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient place to take the break?

JUDGE MAY: I have a request from the registry for you to clarify what document you are withdrawing. We, in fact, have only one document, I think, in this tab. 24596

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my apologies. It was withdrawn this morning before it was actually handed up to the Chamber. I was unaware that it had been already done, so my apologies.

JUDGE MAY: To just make sure I've got the right tab number, in fact.

MR. GROOME: So the copy --


MR. GROOME: It's tab 4, Your Honour. And the ERN number at the top right-hand corner of the page should read 03014149.

JUDGE MAY: I think that clarifies it. We'll adjourn now.

Witness B-127, could you remember in this adjournment and any others not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. If you would be back, please, in 20 minutes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, there seems to have been some addition to the witness's screen.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that is advised. It's a low-tech solution to the problem of glare, to make it possible for the witness to -- to see the TV screen.

JUDGE MAY: It seems a fairly -- a fairly Heath Robinson. It's 24597 cardboard.

MR. GROOME: It is. Luckily we have face distortion.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go on.


Q. Sir, if I could now draw your attention to a different topic. Can I ask you to describe from your perspective the changes in personnel in the Army of the VRS as the JNA formally withdrew from Bosnia.

A. With the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, or rather, when it lost its name the Yugoslav People's Army, a transformation of the army took place, of the army that was in the area. And this was what happened: The officers who remained in Bosnia-Herzegovina and belonged to the former JNA just became members of the Army of Yugoslavia through the 30th Personnel Centre. The people who were doing their service - I'm talking about the Serbs who were serving in Serbia and Montenegro - were transferred to Bosnia and that's where they received their assignments. A certain number of commanding officers who were born in Serbia were withdrawn from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically from Banja Luka too, and flights -- air force flights were organised, taking them back -- air lifts back to Serbia. The officers who were in Bosnia-Herzegovina became officers of the Army of Yugoslavia, as I say, through the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. Now, after the -- after the JNA formally withdrew from Bosnia, were you ever present when a number of VJ, Yugoslav army, reservists came to the Banja Luka area to conduct operations or to be involved in operations? 24598

A. In 1992, in the autumn, I was in the Vrbas barracks when three busloads with Valjevo number plates arrived. They arrived at the barracks to spend the night there and continue their way the next morning to the front. They were given accommodation for the night, dinner and breakfast, and they left in the morning, taking the direction of Bihac. I talked to one of these men, and one of them told me that he had been mobilised in Bubanj -- to Bubanj Potok, in fact, which is in Belgrade. And I asked him man to man, "Did you have to come?" And he said, "I would have lost my job had I refused to respond to the call-up for mobilisation."

Q. And approximately how many men were involved in this deployment?

A. Approximately 180 men. There were -- all the busses were full, and each bus carried about 45 to 48 people, 45 to 48 seats.

Q. I want now -- I want to now ask you about any changes to the communications systems as you have -- of which you have personal knowledge. Before we do that, it will be necessary for us to -- or for you to describe in greater detail your specific command and its relationship to other commands.

MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that we go into private session for this purpose, and ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 3.

[Private session]




[redacted] 24599 Page 24599 - redacted - private session







[Open session]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.


Q. Sir, before I ask you specific questions about the data link you've referred to, I want to ask you some questions just generally about how the radar system operated in the former Yugoslavia. And my first question to you is: Would it be fair to say that a radar operator, looking at a screen of the air space of the former Yugoslavia, was receiving information that was collected by a number of individual radar antennas?

A. Yes, that is correct, because all the information and the targets discovered in the air space were identified and processed, this whole air space was analysed, and data processed in this way was then sent on to the commands and other users, beneficiaries, the missile units, the centres for alarming the population and reporting, that kind of thing.

Q. Now, prior to 1991, did -- was there a unified centralised air defence system for the JNA?

A. In the territory of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, there was a joint system for controlling the air space, and it was a unified system with continuous surveillance of the air space, which 24601 meant 24-hour supervision and control.

Q. What happened to this unified system after the JNA withdrew from Slovenia and then the JNA withdrew from Croatia?

A. With the withdrawal of the units, both from Slovenia and from Croatia, and the units which belonged to the 5th Regiment of air surveillance, they had to be dislocated, moved, and so the regiment from Zagreb was relocated to Bihac when the war began in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they withdrew from Bihac, and the battalion withdrew to Banja Luka. As far as the links are concerned, the newly arisen situation had to be catered to so that new channels of communication were open with the regiment's relocation to Bihac and Belgrade. And when I mean withdrawing them to Belgrade, I mean the RViPV command through the radio relay communication links. And so when the battalion was relocated from Bihac to Banja Luka, new -- from the document that we were looking at a moment ago, there was cooperation. They acted jointly, in fact. And the ViPVO centre then became linked with the radar positions at Banovci and the ViPV commands, so that they were able to see what we saw in the air space, surveying it.

Q. If I can rephrase that in layman's terms, and if you would affirm or correct where I've gone wrong. So the information, from what you're saying, is after the JNA withdrew from Bosnia it maintained the data link which allowed the VRS air defence system to see what the radar antennas in Serbia and Montenegro were picking up, and vice versa; is that correct?

A. Those links were established when the battalion moved from Bihac to Banja Luka. New data links were opened, yes, correct. 24602

Q. And did the information shared -- was it as I described it?

A. Yes. Radio relay links were established, correct.

Q. Now, you've used a few abbreviations. Can I ask you to describe in greater detail what the abbreviations mean. You've used the abbreviation RViPVO. Can you describe what that signifies.

A. The abbreviation RViPVO means air force and anti-air defence, or rather, air defence. In the Army of Republika Srpska, what was used was ViPVO, the air force and PVO, air force and air defence. So when we're talking about ViPVO, this was part of the Army of Republika Srpska and RViPVO referred to the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. Now, this data link, what is the latest period in time that you are able to say from your personal knowledge that data link existed allowing VRS air defence personnel to see what was coming from the radar antennas in Serbia and Montenegro? What's the latest point in time?

A. The last moment, latest period, was the introduction of IFOR, IFOR's prohibition of the radar and computer devices, because the radar -- and the radar stopped working then.

Q. And to the best of your recollection, when was that? What was the month and year of that?

A. Straight after the war. We're talking about 1996, 1997. And after that, permission was given for the radar and computer devices for pure maintenance, for their maintenance, a certain number of hours were allocated. So no combat operations of those units existed any longer.

Q. Just incidentally, prior to the break-up of the former Yugoslavia, did the JNA have any similar relationship with a neighbouring country, 24603 whereby it permitted the automatic transfer of its data from its radar stations to go to other countries such as Hungary or other countries it perceived to be friendly?

A. As far as those data are concerned, they were just used for our own country, and there was a certain number for civil aviation was permitted with respect to an exchange of information when civil aviation, or rather, civilian airplanes flew from one country to another, they could access that information.

Q. And how about with respect to military aircraft?

A. Only for our own users. There was absolutely no way in which we would inform Hungary or Romania, for example. It was only for the needs of the former Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you referred a number of times to the 30th Personnel Centre. Can I ask you to describe what your understanding is of the 30th Personnel Centre.

A. The 30th Personnel Centre of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was a department in the personnel administration of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia. It was established at that point in time when the war in Bosnia began, or at least I didn't know about it up until then. But when the war began, I received papers where it said as a heading "The 30th Personnel Centre." And the markings for that 30th Personnel Centre was military post 3001, VP 3001.

Q. When you say the -- the markings were military post 3001, are you saying that that's the number that was used to indicate that a document had originated from the 30th Personnel Centre? 24604 BLANK PAGE 24605

A. Yes, correct. And the document came from the 30th Personnel Centre if it had the stamp of the 30th Personnel Centre on it with the VP 3001 code on it.

MR. GROOME: Now, Your Honours, I'm going to work with the witness and put to the witness a number of personnel records, beginning with his own. I have kept the records for each individual in the same tab as I believed that would be the way to avoid confusion. I hope it works out that way. The particular documents that I will refer to have been indicated with coloured tabs. I will refer to those tabs and also the last few digits of the ERN and ask the Chamber to advise me if it is becoming confusing, and I will try to -- to deal with it as clearly as possible.

The first set of exhibits I'm going to ask the witness to deal with, and we will attempt to do this on the Sanction system. It will be the first document in the tab of the binder that Your Honours have. And I would ask the director, this next series of documents in tab 5, I'd ask that none of these be broadcast, as they would reveal the identify of this witness. And if the amici could switch off their Sanction computer.

Q. Sir, the document that we can see on the screen now - it ends in ERN number 2876 - what is this document?

A. Would you repeat that question, please.

Q. Can you summarise what the document is that we're looking at on the screen. I believe you have a hard copy of it in your hand at the moment.

A. This is a medical card or ID of which I am the owner. You can see 24606 who my commander was. It states when I began working first and when I received medical insurance from the army first. You can see my name and surname and the place of residence.

On the second page, where it says "PS1" are stamps indicating that I am insured, I have health insurance and military insurance by the 30th Personnel Centre, VP 3001 Belgrade, the military post code.

Q. Now, the address that's indicated here, it's an address in Bosnia; is that not correct?




Q. We're in open session, so there's no need to go into specific detail.

MR. GROOME: I'd ask that that specific street reference be redacted.

Q. Sir, the address that's indicated here, is this military property that you are -- you had the right to stay in?

A. It was a military institution and a military hotel, an army hotel, in fact, which accommodated officers of the former JNA and later to become the Army of Republika Srpska, including civilians too -- or rather, workers employed in the army, who were in the Army of Republika Srpska.

Q. Now, the -- the second page that you've referred to, it bears a number of stamps and it has a number of endorsements. Are these markings intended to indicate that you are still an active member of the 30th Personnel Centre and entitled to certain medical benefits? 24607

A. Yes, that is correct. And it states here that it is the military post 3001 Belgrade, and that I received health insurance from that military post.

Q. So two of these endorsements are from the 30th Personnel Centre in Belgrade, and two of them are from Banja Luka; is that correct?

A. That is correct, yes. They were certified both in Banja Luka and in Belgrade.

Q. Were you required to maintain similar medical cards for members of your family?

A. Both for me and the members of my family. My family members received insurance via the VP 3001 military post. The difference was that for my family members I had to certify the IDs every year, once again in Belgrade, and the military post was 3001 once again.

Q. The next document I'm going to ask you to look at can be found by turning to the first green tab in tab 5 of Prosecution 505, and it's ERN ending 2886. And that is being displayed on the screen in front of you. Can you summarise what this document is for us, please.

A. This is a document on the basis of which my years of service are acknowledged and certified for my pension calculations. It is a document which was issued by the military post 3001, and it says "Confidential," and the date was the 24th of March, 1995. That means that it was through the military post VP 3001, the 30th Personnel Centre, in fact, that we received our pension insurance. We were insured for pensional purposes. Now, what is interesting in this document is point 2, item 2.

Q. If I can just ask you to go through each point and ask you a 24608 specific question. Point 2 - and it should be visible on the television screen - can I first ask you to read that one sentence, and then I will ask you to comment on its significance.

A. Point 2: This is double the pensionable years during the war, recognised by VP 3001, the 30th Personnel Centre. And for 12 months -- if you'd served 12 months, you would be given 24 months. 24 months would be calculated. And this is something that one benefits when the situations are extremely difficult and when members of the army are in a state of war. Then your years would be double, doubled, your years of service.

Q. First I want to read you a particular line. It says here, "Pursuant to Article 156, paragraph 1, and Article 157 of the law on the Yugoslav army --" and it gives several gazette references, one being from 1993 and two being from 1994. Was it your understanding that your pension benefits were determined by VJ law as it was established in Yugoslavia?

A. Our pension insurance was determined by the law governing the Army of Yugoslavia and no other laws, because we were members of the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. Now, looking down where the calculation of the credits that you have for your service, there's an entry -- the second entry says that between the 6th of April, 1992 and the 10th of November, 1993 -- and it has some other numbers. But then it has "12/24." What is the significance of 12/24?

A. That 12/24 indicates that the person in question -- that the pension credit of 24 months is given for 12 months, and it is the wartime period of service, which is when the members are operational and perform 24609 their duties in times of war.

Q. Does the time period 6th of April, 1992 to the 10th of November, 1993 indicate that according to the 30th Personnel Centre that time period was -- was to be considered a combat period for the purposes of calculating your pension?

A. Yes. Yes. According to this document, from the 6th of April, 1992, that is what is being recognised.

Q. Before I ask you to look at the second page, on the top right-hand corner of the first page is the title "Years of Service Form." Is that the name that refers to this particular document?

A. Yes. This is a form. And in the military computer centre, that is where they calculate pension entitlements and the years of service involved are longer than those that were actually involved.

Q. Now if I can ask you to look at the second page of the document -- or I apologise. Perhaps it's all on the same page. I want to draw your attention to the person who signed this document. Can you tell us the name of that person.

A. The officer in charge who signed this document is Ljubomir Lalic, Colonel, who worked at the 30th Personnel Centre. This was established on the 24th of May, 1994.

Q. And the seal that we see to the left of his signature, 3001, is that the stamp of the 30th Personnel Centre?

A. Yes. Yes. That is the seal of the 30th Personnel Centre, Belgrade.

Q. The translation of this document records his last name as being 24610 spelled L-a-t-i-c. Is that correct?

A. Ljubomir Lalic, L-a-l-i-c is correct, so the letter is "L" as in Luxembourg.

Q. What was your understanding -- if you had a disagreement about how your pension benefits were calculated, where did you have to go, according to your understanding, to appeal the decision reflected in Lalic's determination?

A. If anybody would have anything to appeal in this regard, in respect of this decision, it was exactly prescribed, how the appeal were to be carried out, that the appeal should be submitted in two copies to the supreme military court in Belgrade.

Q. Now if I can draw your attention to another document, another Year of Service Form. This would be the second green tab or second green sticker in tab 5 of 505, ending in ERN 2884. Can I ask you to just describe this document very briefly for us.

A. Yes. The document is quite identical to the previous one that we had discussed. However, this document was registered by the military post in Banja Luka, and there is a certain delay involved of five or six months in 1995. This is due to the fact that all documents that were written earlier on were written five or six months later in Republika Srpska in this form of document.

Q. And who was the signatory on this document?

A. This document was signed by the commander of the 851st Battalion, Colonel Bosko Kulic. The 851st Battalion was stationed in Banja Luka.

Q. And where does this document -- where is it purported that this 24611 document was generated?

A. This document, GS-7, was created in Banja Luka.

Q. If I can now draw your attention to the next document. This would be the red sticker in tab 5 of Prosecution Exhibit 505, ERN ending 2888. And, sir, could I ask you to briefly describe what type of document we are looking at.

A. This is a document that was issued by the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, the Secretary for Mobilisation and Manpower. And it has to do with recognising double number of years of service.

Q. And is this a decision granting you that double years of service benefit?

A. Yes. Yes. This decision grants double years of service from the 6th of April, 1992 onwards.

Q. And is it also signed by Colonel Lalic?

A. Yes, it was signed by Colonel Ljubomir Lalic, by the authority given him by the chief, and it was signed in Belgrade.

Q. According to this document, where are you stationed? Where are you posted?

A. According to this document, I am stationed at military post 3001, Belgrade. For your information, I was never in the war -- never in Belgrade during the war.

Q. Aside from any required training, were you ever posted to any assignment in Belgrade?

A. No, not at all.

Q. And does this document, like the last one, refer to determinations 24612 to be made on the basis of law of the Yugoslav army as well as appeals to be made to the Yugoslav army military court?

A. Yes. This document, if it was adopted on the basis of the law on the Army of Yugoslavia and if I were to have anything to appeal in respect of this document, then I would have to submit that appeal to the supreme military court in Belgrade within 30 days after having received the document myself.

Q. My last question regarding this document is to ask you to explain the number at the very top of the document. I'd ask you not to read it, but does this -- is this number a personal identification number for you?

A. This is a personnel identification number. It includes the former and the latter parts contained therein.

Q. The three --

JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, excuse me. Let us go back to the place of the station, of his station. You referred to from military post 3001 and this document refers to his place of station.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the form reads his name --


MR. GROOME: -- from military post 3001, Belgrade.

JUDGE KWON: So that is your -- his assertion.

MR. GROOME: According to this document, he's recorded as serving from that military post.

JUDGE KWON: Did he not say that he belonged to this unit?

MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. 24613

MR. GROOME: It is his testimony that he did in fact belong to this unit, although he never served in Belgrade.

JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: As I understand it, this was the term which was used for officers who were in fact in BiH.

MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: But remained paid and the rest of it, according to the Prosecution, by the VJ.

MR. GROOME: That's correct.

JUDGE MAY: That's the point.

MR. GROOME: That's correct.

JUDGE MAY: They were given this military post number.

MR. GROOME: That's correct.

Q. That personal identification number, as it's important for other documents we will look at here, the first three letters are made up of your initials plus the initial of your father; is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. And the first six digits of that seven-digit number is your date of birth; is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. And one final question about this document - and if I could draw the Chamber's attention to the original on the screen - was this document typed up especially for you or was it a form in which just your information was typed into?

A. This document was for me only. And inter alia what can be seen in 24614 the left-hand corner is that it was submitted to me, that I received a copy, and that it is used for receiving pension benefits -- or rather, my pension entitlement.

Q. Now if I could ask you to look at the last document. This would be marked by a stick -- a blue sticker. And it's 505, tab 5, ERN ending in 2883. I want to ask you some particular questions about this document. First: Do you recognise it and does it pertain to you?

A. Yes, I recognise this document, and it pertains to me.

Q. And this document, was this document sent to both the 30th Personnel Centre in Belgrade and the specific location in Bosnia where you were actually physically located during this time period?

A. This document was signed and validated in Banja Luka because it says, "The military battalion that is located in Banja Luka." And it says in this document that I am assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre of the general staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Q. And where does it say your duty post is?

A. It does not say here that I was assigned. This has to do with promotion with a particular -- it has to do with a particular date. And then it is said that I am at the 30th Personnel Centre.

Q. Now, could I ask you to describe how you were paid during your years of service when you were located in Bosnia. And let's focus on the period after the official withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia.

A. After the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army, or rather, after the establishment of Republika Srpska, the Army of Republika Srpska was established too. And then persons who had served in the JNA until 24615 then became -- became persons who were on the payroll of the Army of Yugoslavia, the VJ. And all these persons who were attached to the 30th Personnel Centre were paid by the Army of Yugoslavia, therefore.

Q. During your entire service in the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you ever receive any money in the form of payment from either the VRS army or the Republika Srpska government?

A. As for direct payment by the government of Republika Srpska, I did not receive a single dinar from them. Payment was made exclusively in Yugoslav dinars, and it was regulated as follows: We received money in cash. Until the Posavina Corridor was established, this was regulated in the following way: A helicopter went to Belgrade with officers from the financial service, and after the Posavina Corridor was taken, then they travelled by land. As proof of what I got for a given month, there is this form, like the one you see on the screen right now, which shows that.

Q. What's depicted on the screen now is Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 6. The form is a largely illegible form, but do you recognise this as being one of your payslips which you provided to the Office of the Prosecution?

A. Yes. This is my payslip where my name and surname are referred to, my rank, how much was paid, the first part of my salary, and how much the remainder was. There is a date and also my years of pensionable service. And this was calculated by the military computer centre.

Q. On your payslip, is it indicated where you were physically posted during your time in Bosnia?

A. The military post from Banja Luka is referred to here. 24616

Q. And is it also indicated on this payment slip where this payment slip originated from, where it was printed?

A. It is only mentioned here that it was done at the computer centre. I can't really read all of this. It's quite illegible. I received this form from the officers of the financial service as proof of payment, proof of how much money I had received and how much money was paid into my personal account.

Q. You've just been handed a hard copy of the document. Is it any more legible on that?

A. It is correct. My name and surname are there and my rank, the date when the payment was made, the military post code, number such and such, Banja Luka, the code of the person concerned, my personal account number, bank account number, and also that this was done by the military computer centre.

Q. Do you know where that centre was located?

A. I got this from the officers of the financial service when they returned from Belgrade and when they collected our salaries.

Q. I want to now draw your attention or turn your attention to the topic of identification papers. While you were serving in Bosnia after the official withdrawal of the JNA, what in the way of identification documents were you issued or did you have in your possession?

A. While serving in the Yugoslav People's Army, every officer of the Yugoslav People's Army had to have a military identity card.

Q. And did you have such a card?

A. We did, all the time. For example, when the Yugoslav People's 24617 Army withdrew in 1992, and then all the way up to 1996, the main identification document was the ID card of the former Yugoslav People's Army that was validated in Belgrade.

MR. GROOME: I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 7.

Q. Is this a photocopy of your identification documents?

A. Yes. This is a copy of my military ID with my name and surname and all the necessary details. Finally, it was validated by military post 3001, Belgrade, and it was valid until 1999, the 31st of December, 1999.

Q. Can I draw your attention to an endorsement of the 31st of December, 1999, an endorsement by Colonel Bosko Mijic. Do you know who he was and where he was assigned?

MR. GROOME: That's ERN number ending 2896.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have to make a correction. It's not the way you put it. It was signed by Colonel Gojko Mijic.


Q. And who was this person? Where was he assigned?

A. It's a colonel who worked in the 30th Personnel Centre. He worked on these matters.

Q. Now, you just a moment ago referred to endorsements by the 30th Personnel Centre or military post VP 3001. Could I ask you to turn to that page. And that's ERN number ending 2899. Am I correct in saying that of the four endorsements here, three were done in Banja Luka and one was done in Belgrade at the 30th Personnel Centre?

A. Yes, that is correct. One was done in Belgrade, where it says 24618 "Military post 3001, Belgrade." And the other one is from the military post in Banja Luka. The first one was when I just started working.

Q. Now, during the period of your service in Bosnia from 1992 after the JNA officially withdrew up until after 1995, into 1996, were you ever issued a similar document or an official military identification card from the VRS army?

A. Until 1995? Is that what you are asking?

Q. Yes, during that time period, 1992 until 1995, the end of 1995.

A. In the period from 1992 to 1996, the only document was this former military ID of the former Yugoslav People's Army that was validated in Belgrade, and that was the only identification document.

Q. Did there come a time when you were in fact issued a military identification card by the Army of the Republika Srpska? And if so, when was that?

A. In 1996, when IFOR entered the area, sometime around then, we got IDs of the Army of Republika Srpska that were issued sometime in the month of July or August.

Q. The witness is indicating that he cannot hear. I'd ask maybe the usher to check. Are you able to hear my voice now?

A. It's this military ID that is on the monitor now. It includes my name and surname and also my identification number, personal identification number, the stamp of the military post that I had been assigned to in the Army of Republika Srpska, where this military post is, and also the date when it was issued. It was issued in August 1996.

Q. The number that's indicated here, is that the same number unique 24619 to you that we saw earlier on some of your other personnel documents, consisting of three letters and six digits?

MR. GROOME: And excuse me, for the record, we are referring to Prosecution --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Groome, please.

MR. GROOME: For the record, we are referring to Prosecution Exhibit 505, tab 8.

A. Yes, that is correct. It is the same identification number, because the registration number is identical to the one that was referred to earlier on, with the initials of the name and surname and the first letter of the father's name, and it also includes the date of birth.

Q. And who is the issuing officer of this identification document?

A. It was issued -- it was issued in Banja Luka, Lieutenant Colonel Kosta Kiso.

Q. And do you know of that person and where that person was assigned?

A. That's a lieutenant colonel who was assigned to the ViPVO of Republika Srpska.

Q. Now, after August of 1996, you had in your possession two military identification documents, one for the Yugoslav army and one for the Army of Republika Srpska. What was your understanding about which document you were to produce if you were called upon to do so by members of the IFOR force?

A. Well, if IFOR members or, later, SFOR members were to ask for my ID, the only document I would have to show was the one that you just showed on the screen now. Otherwise, if I had shown the previous military 24620 BLANK PAGE 24621 ID, there would be the possibility of them arresting me as a member of the Army of Yugoslavia in Bosnia.

JUDGE KWON: And the identity number, is that the one used only in the military or is it the one which is -- which can be used as a citizen generally? Because it says, "Citizen's personal identity number."

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may ask a few questions to clarify that.



Q. On this document, are there actually two identification numbers, both military and citizen identification numbers?

A. First we are going to say that it was issued by military post 7070, Banja Luka. And the first number is the personal identification number of citizens, that is the number that any citizen has, irrespective of the military. And the other one is the registration number of my military ID, issued by the Army of Republika Srpska, which is identical to the previous one. And we've already explained this a short while ago, what these three letters meant, and also the number.

JUDGE KWON: So six digits. Thank you.


THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. To put it very precisely, this is the date of birth, the first two digits, the day, and the second -- the third and fourth are the month of birth, and the following two are the year of birth.

MR. GROOME: 24622

Q. This system that you've described with respect to your military identification documents, was this something that was unique to you or are you aware of other officers in similar situations with similar sets of documents issued in the way you've described?

A. Documents of this kind, like the ones I showed, were ones that all the members of the 30th Personnel Centre had.

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient place to break?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now. Witness B-127, we must ask you to come back, please, next Tuesday. I'm sorry we won't be sitting for the next few days. If you would come back on Tuesday, we'll conclude your evidence then. How much longer do you think you might be, Mr. Groome?

MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think about 40 minutes.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

the 22nd day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.