25477
Thursday, 28 August 2003
[Open session]
[The accused entered court]
[The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
WITNESS: WITNESS C-1[Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
THE INTERPRETER: We couldn't hear the beginning of the sentence.
Q. [Interpretation] We stopped yesterday talking about those buildings that were detonated and the events that happened earlier. All this combined caused great anxiety among the Serbian population; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then, from what I see from your statement, the issue of how to obtain weapons became very topical. You explain that on the 13th of May, 1991 you took over a certain amount of weapons.
A. Yes.
Q. You say, "The blue Zastava vehicle appeared, reduced speed, somebody dumped ammunition, and the vehicle drove on"; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know these people who brought this?
A. No.
Q. Was this given to you? 25478
A. No. It was just dumped outside from a vehicle.
Q. Who was around when this happened?
A. There were three of us.
Q. But you took the weapons, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I see here that you were arrested because of this. How did it come about, your arrest?
A. When I took the weapons, I was arrested on my way home.
Q. And then you spent time in a prison in Osijek; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a regular prison, an investigations prison?
A. An investigations prison.
Q. How long did you spend in prison?
A. Three months.
Q. Were you tried?
A. No.
Q. How did it come about that you were released?
A. I was released in the course of an exchange.
Q. How many of you were exchanged on that occasion? How many of you were in that prison?
A. I don't know how many we were, but there was a busload of people who were exchanged.
Q. You personally have knowledge only about the group with whom you were exchanged; right?
A. Yes. 25479
Q. Tell me, please: Since this was a regular investigations prison in Osijek, how were you treated there?
A. Decently.
Q. Nobody mistreated you, from what I understand.
A. No, they didn't.
Q. There was no rough treatment.
A. There wasn't.
Q. And who interrogated you?
A. An investigating judge.
Q. You see -- you say on page 3 of your statement, at the very beginning of the first paragraph: "In the Osijek prison, I was very roughly treated. During interrogation, I was beaten up very badly on several occasions. The same happened to a number of other Serb prisoners that were there with me."
A. I added that to the statement.
Q. So you amended your statement?
A. Yes, because it wasn't recorded correctly the first time.
Q. Is this another thing that hadn't been properly -- properly recorded, what it says in the next paragraph: "For a number of days after I came back home, I was unable to go out for several days because I was in such a bad shape." Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it really so or is this an error?
A. I was mentally in such a bad shape. Physically, I was all right.
Q. And then you tried to find your family, who lived in Vukovar? 25480
A. Yes.
Q. You had heard that the JNA had evacuated them from Vukovar and you found them in the second half of the month of August; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You say -- I don't know about this term, because I see it in your statement for the first time, "The so-called space police arrested all the non-Serb residents." What kind of police is that?
A. Some sort of self-styled police.
Q. You mean a para-police force?
A. Yes.
Q. And it consisted of who?
A. There were three or four men at most.
Q. Were they wearing uniforms?
A. Camouflage uniforms.
Q. And they were arresting non-Serb residents?
A. Right.
Q. Did you know these men?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were they people from Dalj?
A. Yes.
Q. So your own local people?
A. Yes.
Q. But from what I understand, they were neither members of the JNA nor members of any other formation. You could call them some sort of self-appointed, self-styled police. 25481
A. Yes, self-appointed police.
Q. You mentioned a certain person by the name of Stricevic, who was the chief of police in Dalj; right?
A. He was the chief of this space police.
Q. So he was the chief of this illegal police force?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, tell me, because you seem to have spent only a month with the Territorial Defence, what was the reason why you left the Territorial Defence?
A. I had to go back to my job and my home.
Q. You say on page 3, in this large, long paragraph: "I needed fuel for my car, but I couldn't buy it without a voucher issued by the TO commander. I asked Pavle Milovanovic, also known as Pajo, to issue me with this voucher, but he refused. This upset me, so I decided to leave the Territorial Defence."
A. That's right.
Q. So you left the TO because this so-called Pajo, the commander, refused to issue you with a voucher for fuel?
A. That was one of the reasons.
Q. Now, tell me a little more, in greater detail about this person from Vukovar who was brought to the police station in Dalj and who, according to your statement, used the building of the old farm cooperative. It must be some sort of farm, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. If I understand your statement correctly - and I'll read out from 25482 page 4 - "I heard that one group of people had also been brought to the Dalj police station, which at that time was using the building of the old cooperative centre as their station. But I personally did not see these people." You didn't see this personally?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. So you heard from someone else that these people had been brought to the building of the agricultural cooperative?
A. Correct.
Q. And then you go on to say - and I have the impression that these are two separate things - you say that you were trying to help some people, to get them out of prison, some among the people who were detained there. Are we talking about a different place, a different prison?
A. A different place and a different prison.
Q. What prison?
A. That is the prison located in the very local commune, in the TO headquarters, and there was another prison located at the Red Cross.
Q. You went there and you managed to free a couple of people.
A. Right.
Q. You just said a moment ago that it was a TO prison organised or set up by local residents. We established that much at the beginning of your testimony; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The JNA had nothing to do with it; is that so?
A. It had nothing to do with it.
Q. And you continued to speak about the first killing in Dalj, when 25483 one of the prisoners who had been detained and interrogated there jumped out of the window, as you say, and was then killed by a TO guard.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was that guard?
A. It was an older man, known under the nickname Babura.
Q. You know this man. He is a local resident?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me now something about this group of people who were killed. You mentioned that they had been on a slope somewhere between Dalj and Lovas; right?
A. Yes, at the Lovas farm.
Q. So at the Lovas farm. Do you know anything about the circumstances under which they were killed?
A. All I heard when I came there was that they had been brought by bus and that this was done by people from Borovo Selo.
Q. If you would be kind enough to explain this in greater detail a little more clearly, because I see on page 6 of your statement that this commander, the man who was there with you, told you that they had been killed by Savuljasi men. What does that mean?
A. That's the name of a street near Borovo Selo. It belongs to the territory of Borovo Selo.
Q. So it was a group of men named after a street in Borovo Selo, and he explained to you that they -- this group of people had been killed by 25484 BLANK PAGE 25485 these men.
A. Yes.
Q. Did he also explain that they had been brought there and executed by firing squad, or did he say anything more precisely?
A. He said that they had been brought by some bus.
Q. So there was no doubt that all of them were killed there on the spot and they had not been brought from anywhere.
A. Well, judging by the bodies, I believe they were killed on that spot.
Q. Very well. Now, tell me, regarding these people brought from Vukovar, what actually happened to them? Because in the course of the examination-in-chief, I heard you describing how a large number of residents of Vukovar was brought there. What do you mean by "large number"?
A. Well, for instance, about three truckloads, which means 60 to 70 people, were brought to the building of the Red Cross.
Q. And you go on to say that the women were taken to Serbia.
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to them?
A. They just took their names down, listed them, and transported them to Serbia after they had spent only one night there.
Q. Who transported them?
A. They were taken there by bus.
Q. I understand the vehicle used was a bus, but I mean who did this?
A. The TO. 25486
Q. You mean the TO transported them to Serbia after they were released?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were they -- were there?
A. At the Red Cross building, there were only women and children.
Q. And they were only transported and released on the other side. How about the men?
A. The men were at the TO, in the local commune.
Q. That's the place where you went to intervene for a couple of them to be released?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were there?
A. The same number; 50 to 60.
Q. Do you know what happened to those men who were at the local commune, that is, the TO headquarters?
A. They were also transferred to the cinema hall in Dalj, and from then on they were also transported by buses to Serbia.
Q. You mean to say they too were released?
A. Yes.
Q. Was any of them mistreated or killed?
A. There was mistreatment, but I don't know that anybody was killed.
Q. Very well. So you managed to release only a few, and the rest were released. But how much later?
A. Well, more or less two or three days later.
Q. Did anyone interrogate them in the meantime and then release them? 25487
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me now, since in the examination-in-chief you were asked in connection with cooperation between the TO or, rather, the locals who were in Dalj with the JNA. And I gathered from your explanations that the JNA had a unit in Ilok.
A. No.
Q. A JNA headquarters in Ilok was mentioned.
A. There was a headquarters in the PP Dalj.
Q. And then they asked you whether the TO cooperated with the JNA, and you said that you didn't know.
A. I don't know.
Q. How many JNA members were there in this PP Dalj? What is that PP Dalj?
A. An agricultural enterprise.
Q. Yes. Was it a platoon, a company, a unit?
A. Well, a unit.
Q. Tell me, what were they doing?
A. They were within the PP Dalj compound. That is where their vehicles were stationed. There were guards in front of the gate so that people couldn't enter.
Q. Very well. But there were no prisoners there.
A. Allegedly there was a group of civilians from Vukovar up there in a hangar.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what happened to them?
A. Allegedly they, too, were taken to Serbia. 25488
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether any of them were mistreated by the JNA?
A. No.
Q. Very well, Mr. 1175. Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no questions for this witness.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I have a few questions.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
Q. Witness, during this cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic asked you about the arming of the Croats. And in your statement that forms part of your testimony, you said that you heard stories that the Croats were arming themselves, that you did not see that but that you saw a truck and concluded that the stories were true. And my question to you is: Who actually told such stories about the arming of the Croats?
A. The Serbs were telling those stories.
Q. Did you also get stories of that kind from the media?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Milosevic, during his cross-examination, also asked you about events in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991. Were you in Borovo Selo at that day?
A. No.
Q. Did you personally make any observation related to the events in 25489 Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May?
A. No, nothing. Only the people from Dalj headed towards Borovo Selo to see what was going on, so that we heard everything from them. Some of them even went into Borovo Selo.
Q. And those who informed you about the events, were they all Serbs?
A. There were Serbs and Croats.
Q. Did you get also information about the events in -- in the media?
A. Yes.
Q. What media?
A. Croatian television carried reports, as did the radio.
Q. Did the Croatian television report also the killing of 12 policemen, Croatian policemen?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any means to check whether the reports that you heard from people or from the media were correct?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Milosevic also put to you other events related to Borovo Selo in April and May 1991. Did you observe any of these events yourself?
A. No.
Q. What was the source of your information to these events?
A. Every event that happened, shall we say in Borovo Selo, the people in the village heard about it straight away, so that I obtained all the information from the locals.
Q. Mr. Milosevic also asked you about what happened to certain groups of people that were brought from Vukovar, and my question to you is: What 25490 happened to those that you saw being detained in that prison behind the TO headquarters? Do you know what became of them?
A. I don't know what became of them or where they were taken.
Q. How long were they kept there? Also only for a few days, or longer?
A. For a few days.
Q. Did you see any mistreatment?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of mistreatment?
A. Well, they beat them and mistreated them.
Q. And when you say "they," whom do you mean?
A. This svemirska police, or cosmic police, and this group that came from Prigrevica.
Q. And you also -- and you also mentioned the people that were detained or you heard about in the Dalj police building. What became of them? Do you know that?
A. I don't know. I just know that there was a story one day that some of them were killed at Jama, down the Danube.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are the questions that the Prosecution has. Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Witness C-1175, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go. If you'd just wait for the blinds to be lowered.
[The witness withdrew]
[Trial Chamber and registrar confer] 25491 BLANK PAGE 25492
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, while the witness leaves, I would like to announce a -- a change in the witness list, or, rather, a drop in the witness list, just so that the parties do not prepare. The witness Josipovic will not be called this week, and we will re-evaluate whether we will have to call him at all.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. The next witness is which, please?
MR. SAXON: Your Honours, the next witness will be Witness C-1071.
JUDGE MAY: I'm told there's one witness who may have difficulty in reading.
MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: Is that right? Is this the witness, do we know?
MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. I believe it is the following witness.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll deal with that. Thank you.
MR. SAXON: Perhaps while we're waiting, if I could ask the registrar to place this sheet on the table where the witness will sit, containing her true name.
Thank you very much. While we're waiting, Your Honours, Witness C-1071 will discuss events that relate to page 23 of the Croatia atlas.
JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. There's a matter I need to consult on. 25493
[Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
JUDGE MAY: We need to go into private session to deal with the voice distortion.
[Private session]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[Open session]
JUDGE MAY: All right. I'm sorry to put you through that, but could you take the declaration now.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS C-1071
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat. Yes, Mr. Saxon.
Examined by Mr. Saxon:
Q. Witness, good morning. There is a piece of paper in front of you. And without reading the name that is on that piece of paper, could you 25494 simply please verify that that is your true name written on that piece of paper.
A. Yes.
Q. During this proceeding this morning, I will refer to you by the pseudonym C-1071.
A. Yes.
Q. Witness C-1071, did you provide a statement to a member of the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in May of 2001?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. During the past few days, have you had the opportunity to review the statement that you gave in 2001?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And two days ago, did you confirm to an officer of the Registry of this Tribunal that your statement is true and correct?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would offer the statement of this witness into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis. We have provided a redacted version for the public and an unredacted version to be filed under seal. There is a passport photo that is attached to this statement, and that should be filed under seal as well.
JUDGE MAY: We'll get the next exhibit number for the package.
THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 518, Your Honours.
MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at the end of the battle for Vukovar on 19 November 1991, JNA soldiers escorted Witness C-1071, her husband, who was a Croat, and their two children from the basement of their apartment 25495 building to the village of Luzac. In Luzac, Serb forces separated men from women and children and the men were taken to the local community building in Luzac. Witness C-1071 last saw her husband when she handed him some cigarettes by this building. Shortly thereafter, the JNA transported Witness C-1071 and her children to the village of Brsadin and from there civilian buses carried them to Bac in Vojvodina in the Republic of Serbia.
Witness C-1071 subsequently heard that many people from Vukovar were taken to the village of Dalj, and she made several trips to Dalj to search for her husband. She spoke to people at the JNA headquarters in Dalj, the Territorial Defence headquarters in Dalj, the Dalj police, and the local Red Cross. No one gave her any information about the fate or whereabouts of her husband. However, one man who resided in Dalj told Witness C-1071 that he had seen her husband in front of the Red Cross building in Dalj and that her husband had been beaten. Another person told Witness C-1071 that she should stop looking for her husband because he had been killed. This person, however, did not give Witness C-1071 any more information.
Seven to eight years after she last saw her husband, another person gave information to Witness C-1071. This person told Witness C-1071 that her husband was seen in front of the Dalj cinema. A man approached and said, "I need this one." A guard told the man that Witness 1071's husband had "passed the procedure." But the man insisted that he wanted Witness C-1071's husband and returned with a group of men. They captured Witness C-1071's husband inside the Dalj cinema and took him 25496 away. Later, gunshots were heard.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is that the examination, Mr. Saxon?
MR. SAXON: It is. Thank you, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, if you have questions for this witness.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Madam 1071, you lived in Vukovar throughout, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say in your statement that from the second half of August 1991 the situation in Vukovar became very dangerous.
A. Yes.
Q. And actually, that you found yourself in the midst of a military operation, because there was fighting everywhere around you. Could you be kind enough to describe -- can you hear me now?
A. Yes. No, I can't hear again.
Q. Would you be kind enough to describe that situation. What was it that changed? How did this dangerous situation come about? You were in Vukovar throughout, even before that, weren't you?
A. How can I describe it? Shooting started, barricades. Simply, it became dangerous for everyone. Around the 24th of August onwards, everything was blocked, so that we couldn't go anywhere from Vukovar, and our life was reduced to our own -- the confines of our own apartment. My family spent the whole time in the basement, that is, for 86 days I and 25497 the children were in the basement.
Q. Tell me, please, when did the fighting in Vukovar start and this irregular state of affairs, the tensions and everything?
A. Sometime in the spring.
Q. And what was happening?
A. People were arming themselves. They were erecting barricades. Simply, it wasn't safe anywhere.
Q. Tell me, who was arming themselves and who was putting up these barricades?
A. I personally don't know. I heard that everyone was doing it. Now, who is everyone? Around Vukovar, in the villages, the villages were separating.
Q. But you were living in Vukovar.
A. Yes, I was. But I was living in an apartment building, so that I didn't have information about it, only from the media, while we still had power.
Q. Did you have any idea as to what was happening in your town? Or you didn't leave the building at all?
A. I didn't leave the building, but I heard from people who did move around.
Q. What did they say?
A. That there were various acts of sabotage, shooting, arrests, blockades.
Q. What shooting? What act of sabotage? What kind of incidents and events had you heard about? I assume you must remember something about 25498 BLANK PAGE 25499 it.
A. I heard about certain premises that were being blown up, that there was shooting at certain houses. I just heard about this; I didn't see it.
Q. And these premises that were blown up were owned by Serbs, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. Apart from those business premises that were blown up in the period starting with March, when the conflict started, up until the time when they escalated in August, as you say, do you know anything at all about the crimes that were being committed against the Serbs in Vukovar throughout that period of time?
A. I heard about them. There were stories. But as I say, I didn't leave my apartment after August, so I simply don't know. This is just unverified information. And I did hear that the most frequent victims were people in mixed marriages. I don't know how to put it. I can't claim that with certainty, because I didn't see it.
Q. But do you remember that sometime in July, before those events escalated further, that the president of the municipality was replaced? He was a Serb. His name was Slavko Dokmanovic.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know the reasons for his replacement?
A. Again, I don't know personally. I'm not a politician. People were saying that it was because he was a Serb, and that someone else was appointed in his place. 25500
Q. You listened to the radio, and do you remember that at the time the director of the radio was replaced too?
A. It was Radio Vukovar at the time. Later on it became Croatian Radio.
Q. I see, it was Radio Vukovar at the time and then Croatian Radio.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the liquidations of Serbs in Vukovar at that time?
A. As I said, I heard about that. We were a mixed population, and there were rumours going around to that effect. But I didn't see this or read about it.
Q. So you neither saw it nor read about it?
A. No. No, I didn't.
Q. Do you remember that in the village of Brsadin, which was just mentioned, near Vukovar on the 1st of May, 1991, the first Serb victim fell?
THE INTERPRETER: The witness [sic] didn't catch the name of the victim.
Q. Yes. A man called Djuro Gelincin.
A. I don't know. I just heard about that.
Q. Do you know anything about the paramilitary units that were set up, that committed those murders?
A. I don't know where they were set up, where they gathered or where they ambushed people.
Q. Do you know anything about the collection centres for Serbs in Vukovar? According to my information, you were a citizen of Vukovar, so 25501 you would certainly be aware of that. The collection centres in Borovo Komerc, Borovo Nova Obuca, the hangar at the airport, the unfinished school in Borovo, the kindergarten in the municipality, in the municipality basement, in the atomic shelter, in Drvo Promet.
A. I heard about all that after the war, when we came back, when the fighting started. People were talking about this. But I wasn't there. I didn't see that. I did not see a single victim.
Q. Do you know -- well, you say, "When I came back." When did you come back?
A. On the 27th or 28th of November, 1991, some ten days later, after the fighting had stopped. People talked.
Q. Did you hear about the places where Serbs were killed after interrogation and arrest? For example, Trpinska Cesta, Borovska Cesta, Zracni Klub Borovo, the Borovo stadium, the Pcelica Creche, the bank of the Danube, and so on and so forth. I have quite a long list here, so I won't burden you with the whole list. Did you hear about these locations?
A. All the locations are familiar to me. I heard about this, but I didn't see it because I had other things to do, and it was terrible even to hear about this.
Q. Terrible even to hear about it. Did you hear about Marko Filkovic, known as Kinez, who was the commander of the National Guard Corps?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear a single name of the people killed under his command, the civilians, especially November 1991, early November? 25502
A. I heard some names later on, but -- well, maybe those people I knew, but the names meant nothing to me.
Q. Do you remember an event when in the house of Milos Novakovic, in which whole families were hiding in the basement, the Pavlovic family, the Pavic family?
A. Where is this street? Where is this house?
Q. According to my information, the house belongs to Milos Novakovic.
A. Yes. But where is it? I don't know. I didn't hear about that.
Q. As you were still in Vukovar in August 1991, do you remember in Olajnica, in the atomic shelter, some children were killed or, rather, slaughtered, 15-year-old boys?
A. I don't know about that. I know about the atomic shelter in Olajnica but I wasn't there and I didn't hear about this event. I heard later on that some children were killed by a shell which landed in front of the shelter, and this was just before the end of the war.
Q. What do you know about the blockade of the barracks in Vukovar?
A. The barracks is quite far from the area where I live. People said it had been blocked, that water, power, and food had been cut off, and that attacks on Vukovar had started for that reason.
Q. Did you know anything about shooting at the barracks?
A. It's too far from where I live.
Q. Do you know at least when the blockade started?
A. I don't know exactly. I know that from the 24th of August on I didn't leave my basement, because that's when the planes started flying over. And they said that a truck had been attacked on its way to 25503 Borovo Selo.
Q. So it started before that date.
A. Probably. I don't know.
Q. Do you remember that the JNA tolerated all this until the 1st of October and took no action, expecting the barracks to be unblocked?
A. Sir, I would like to answer your questions, but I had two children to look after. And as I have already told you, I didn't leave the basement at all after the 24th of August.
Q. In your statement, you say that two JNA soldiers arrived and told you you were to leave. Did they do this to protect you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they help you to take shelter?
A. They protected us while we crossed the street to come to a house where we would be safe. One went in front of us and one went behind us.
Q. You say they took you to a soccer field where there were already a lot of people.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see your husband there?
A. My husband came with me.
Q. So you were all together then.
A. Yes.
Q. And did they detain him there? From what you said in your statement, I understood that he was in a logistics group for the hospital.
A. Yes.
Q. So he was working there. 25504
A. All the men, both young and elderly men, were separated off on that soccer field. The women were left behind, and the men were taken to the school and the local commune for their documents to be checked.
Q. From what Mr. Saxon said, I understood that after this you never saw your husband again. Is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So everything you learnt, you learned while searching for him from your conversations with some people.
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to know more about the last part of Mr. Saxon's explanation. You said that from a certain person, whose name I will not mention so as not to identify you, that this person saw your husband in Dalj.
A. Yes.
Q. And that this person said that they were taken to Dalj.
A. We all passed through Dalj, but I passed through Dalj earlier.
Q. Well, I'm reading what it says here: "The person was standing in front of the cinema in Dalj when my husband approached them."
A. Yes.
Q. So this is about your husband.
A. Yes.
Q. "They chatted for a while, when a rather short man approached my husband and told him he needed him."
A. Yes.
Q. And then you say, "The men who were guarding the area told him 25505 BLANK PAGE 25506 that my husband had gone through the procedure and he had been released."
A. Yes.
Q. Madam 1071, could you please explain: When you were separated off, you were protected by the JNA; is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It follows from this that some sort of check was carried out and that your husband was released by the JNA. Is that correct?
A. Yes, as far as Dalj.
Q. The people you mention as trying to capture your husband again or do something to him had nothing to do with the JNA; is this correct?
A. That's what transpires from what I heard.
Q. Were they local people from Dalj?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you say that this man insisted, although he had been told that the man had been released, and then he brought another group of people, who captured him and took him away.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's the last you heard of your husband; is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. I wanted to clarify this. Did you ever see members of the JNA behaving illegally or using violence against people?
A. No.
Q. I won't keep you long. I know this is not easy for you. I want to clarify just a few more points. You spent some time in Serbia with relatives. 25507
A. Yes.
Q. I won't mention the place, it doesn't matter. It was in Vojvodina, in the north part of Serbia. Did you try through the Red Cross in that municipality or the Red Cross of Serbia or the International Red Cross to obtain some information? Did you apply for help to any authorities in that municipality in Serbia?
A. No. I went back to Dalj on my own, to search.
Q. So you crossed the Danube to search for your husband?
A. Yes. The children remained in Serbia and I went back to search for my husband through the police, the territorials, the army. They said that they would check and that he would follow us after being checked.
Q. And that's what was supposed to happen, because he was released after the check and then he was captured by some people. From these conversations, did you understand that he was captured by a group of civilians?
A. That's what I understood. In fact, I understood that he disappeared because he was a Croat.
Q. Did you ever learn what prison your husband was in?
A. As far as I know, he never went further than Dalj.
Q. Dalj was held by the TO of Dalj, or the Dalj police; is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you heard that in front of the Red Cross building your husband was beaten.
A. Yes. 25508
Q. Did you try to find out who these men were who captured your husband?
A. Yes, I did, but I didn't apply to the units there because it was hard for me to say that my husband was a Croat and because I was left on my own with my daughters. The man who told me that my husband had been killed in Dalj told me to calm down and to stop looking for the sake of my children.
Q. Before you met this acquaintance of yours who told you that he had gone through the procedure and been released --
A. Yes.
Q. -- were you able to pinpoint the time referred to by the man who told you that your husband had been killed and the time when the person who talked to him in front of the cinema saw him?
A. This man, when I was searching through Dalj -- because I went to Dalj every day begging for information, trying to find out. And if my husband had been killed, trying to find his body to bury him. This was in 1991. As nobody wanted to talk about such things, a year had elapsed before that woman described the last moments of my husband's life. She was probably afraid for her own safety or maybe she was afraid she would have to testify, but nobody told me that they had seen my husband being killed.
Q. You say that before you met this acquaintance of yours --
THE INTERPRETER: The last part of the question was inaudible.
A. Yes, unfortunately, this person died.
Q. I would like to ask you what the person's name was, even if we 25509 have to go into closed session, because this person would have to know more about this. He would have to know who did this and how and when.
JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt and deal with this. We didn't get the interpretation of the person to whom you were referring, Mr. Milosevic. Who is it that you're referring to?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the lady, 1071, whether she knew that man who told her that her husband had been killed. I asked if she knew his name. But it happens to be irrelevant, because lady 1071 just said, "The man is dead."
A. I think that much is written in my statement.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Sorry, I didn't note that at first.
A. Give me a moment to look for that passage.
JUDGE KWON: It's in the paragraph 13. The name appears on that paragraph.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Yes, I understand. But in any case, you were not able to find out from him any more detail, any more information.
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. So it all boils down to these three sources, three persons who gave you tidbits of information about your husband. And the only thing that you can precisely know was that he was captured by this group of people outside the cinema.
A. Yes.
Q. And it was a group of civilians. 25510
A. So I was told.
Q. Thank you, Madame. I have no further questions for you.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Witness, I would appreciate just a couple of clarifications for the benefit of the Judges.
About the barracks, this barracks that we're talking about, is it located in the town itself?
A. Yes.
Q. It is not close to your home, but it is located in the town itself.
A. Yes.
Q. And in that town, the barracks existed always, as far as you know?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it a big barracks with a lot of troops and a lot of weaponry?
A. To be quite frank, I don't know. I rarely visited that part of town. And as for the number of troops, I don't know. I think it is a regular, normal building, nothing special.
Q. All right. You said that the barracks and the troops inside it at one point remained cut off from electricity, water supply, and food supply.
A. They were cut off first, and then the rest of us.
Q. It was cut off to them first and then to the rest of the population. How do you know that?
A. I only heard about the timing. 25511
Q. Were there any attacks? Was anybody using weapons to attack the barracks at any point?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did this happen first, before the shelling of the town?
A. That's how people told it.
Q. Just one more question: Were there any casualties among the soldiers and officers during that blockade, before the shelling began?
A. Well, I didn't hear about it firsthand, because I was in the basement. As I said, I heard about the attacks on the trucks. That's all I know.
Q. Thank you. Questioned by the Court:
JUDGE KWON: Madam 1071, did the members of the OTP not tell you that there's a witness in this Tribunal that -- who says he had seen the body of your husband?
A. No.
JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:
Q. Witness C-1071, Mr. Milosevic suggested, as he put it, "It all boils down to three sources who gave you tidbits of information." In your statement, I believe you refer to another source. On page 3 of your statement, you mention how you went to Dalj on the 22nd or 23rd of November, 1991 to begin to look for your husband, and you went to the JNA headquarters in Dalj and you spoke to a guard there. Do you recall what, if anything, that JNA guard said about mistakes that had been made? 25512 BLANK PAGE 25513
A. I was told at that time, when I asked, whether they had a list or something. This man, this army man, told me that they had made a mistake because they had turned over everything to members of the Territorial Defence.
Q. You also mentioned that you had heard that the most frequent victims from Vukovar were people in mixed marriages. You were in a mixed marriage yourself, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness C-1071, has your husband's body been found and identified?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us when your husband's body was found approximately and approximately where it was found?
A. Roughly before the time I gave this statement, in spring 2001, and it was found in a clearing called Lovas, between Dalj and Lovas -- sorry, between Dalj and Borovo Selo, so I was told.
Q. And were there any wounds found on your husband's body, to your knowledge?
A. I was told that he had two entry and exit wounds and possibly other wounds I don't know about.
Q. Just to be clear, what caused the entry and exit wounds, according to what you were told?
A. Probably gunfire. I don't know. Rounds from a rifle. I didn't ask whether it was a rifle or a pistol. They didn't tell me, and I didn't ask.
MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have no further questions. 25514
JUDGE MAY: Witness C-1071, thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give your evidence. It's now concluded, and you're free to go. But would you wait until the blinds have been lowered, please.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: In fact, we'll adjourn now. We'll take the adjournment slightly earlier, but it would be convenient, and we'll hear the next witness after the adjournment.
[The witness withdrew]
--- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
--- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.
JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. Let us deal with the witness first. Ms. Bauer, arrangements have been made for this oath to be taken, have they?
MS. BAUER: I believe they have, yes.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Would you follow what the interpreters say, please. And if the interpreters would read the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: ANA BICANIC
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. 25515
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, we heard a moment ago that this witness Josip Josipovic was taken off the list. I wanted to kindly ask you to find out if Mr. Josipovic had come to The Hague this week. And second, I want to point out that he is providing very important evidence on the events that took place in that part of Bosanska Dubica and Hrvatska Dubica and that I have very good reason to conclude that the side opposite is taking him off the list because his testimony is not convenient to them. Let me just read the last sentence.
JUDGE MAY: No. No. What we're going to do is this: We're going to hear this witness's evidence first. She's here and she should be able to give her evidence without interruption. We will then return to the witness who you've referred to, and we'll hear about the position then and you can make any submissions. But let us first of all deal with the witness who's in court.
Examined by Ms. Bauer:
Q. Good morning, Witness. Do you hear me properly?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please state your name for the record.
A. Ana Bicanic.
Q. Ms. Bicanic, do you recall that two days ago you went through your statement in the presence of a representative of the court?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you sign a declaration attesting to its accuracy and truthfulness in front of this court representative? 25516
A. Yes, I did.
MS. BAUER: Your Honour, at this point I'd like to offer the statement pursuant to the regulation 92 bis into evidence.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll get an exhibit number for the package.
THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 519, Your Honours.
MS. BAUER: I'll commence with the summary. Ms. Bicanic was a housewife and 56 years old at the time of the events. All her life, she lived --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
MS. BAUER:
Q. Ms. Bicanic, I'm reading out the summary. You don't need to say yes or no. So just sit back and relax, please.
MS. BAUER: All her life she lived in Saborsko, which was a predominantly Croat inhabited village of approximately 7 kilometres in length. From June --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
MS. BAUER:
Q. Ms. Bicanic, you don't need to say yes every time I read something out.
JUDGE ROBINSON: I think I should just go ahead, Ms. Bauer.
MS. BAUER: Thank you, Your Honour. From June 1991 to November 1991, Ms. Bicanic observed APCs and jeeps full of soldiers driving through the village towards Licka Jesenica, where the JNA had a military training base. At the foot of a hill called Pljesevica, there was a military heliport, which was located close to 25517 Saborsko. Helicopters and planes would fly over the village of Saborsko regularly at that time.
In 1991 -- in June 1991, Serbs from the direction of Licka Jesenica started shooting randomly at the village of Saborsko with gunfire and occasional artillery fire. Some ten people died in these initial attacks and several were wounded. Following these initial attacks, a few persons were evacuated from the area, in particular women with small children and elderly, frail people. Heavy artillery shelling of the village began on the 5th of August, 1991 and continued until two days before the fall of the village on the 12th of November. On the 12th of November, airplanes attacked the village of Saborsko, shooting tracers and dropping bombs. The witness and her husband ran into a basement of a family house belonging to Petar Bicanic. There were around 20 people in this basement seeking shelter from the enemy assault, all civilians.
At one point, a woman from the village came to the basement which was used as a shelter and told them to flee because the tanks had already entered the town. Only a few young men followed this advice and ran off immediately. Shortly afterwards, the witness and her husband ran into their house, which was nearby, in order to pick up some warmer clothes. Her husband, who had two hand grenades with him and feared it could cost his life if detected, hid them in a haystack. Subsequently, they returned to the basement. After the bombing attack subsided, the group thought about surrendering and heard someone outside the house where they hid say something to the effect "give me some matches." They believed that the 25518 Serbs were burning houses and that they were going to be burned alive, so they went outside to surrender. Mrs. Bicanic, who constructed an improvised white flag on a stick, went out first, shouting not to shoot because they were all civilians. She saw two soldiers dressed in Serbian dark grey uniforms and wearing visor caps with a five-pointed red star. These soldiers were heavily armed and spoke with a Serbian dialect. The soldiers threw a hand grenade into the basement of the house and then separated men from the women, searching all the men and taking their valuables and money. Ms. Bicanic saw how her husband was slapped without any reason. He looked terrified and pale. One of the soldiers shouted that they all ought to be slaughtered. Other Serbs stood on the road, searched houses, and took what they could take. Subsequently, they separated the men and took them behind the house. Ms. Bicanic saw how those two soldiers she initially had seen when she had come out of the basement shot and killed all the men with automatic gunfire, including the witness's husband. Subsequently, the soldiers gave the women an ultimatum, that they had to leave Saborsko in half an hour or to be killed as well.
The witness returned to Saborsko in 1995 and could not recognise the village. Everything was destroyed and overgrown. The witness's house was completely demolished and burned. Two local churches were destroyed, one completely, the other one from medieval times was heavily damaged. After Operation Storm in 1995, a mass grave was discovered near the parish house in Saborsko.
THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down a little, please. 25519 BLANK PAGE 25520
MS. BAUER: I apologise. The witness's husband, Milan Bicanic, was among the dead, as well as other men killed with him on that day.
I conclude the summary.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Bicanic, in your statement, you say that in the year 1990 a referendum was held and that Croats were happy and Serbs were not happy at all about this referendum. Is that true?
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Did you -- did you hear that question?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
JUDGE MAY: Is that right?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not right. The Serbs were very happy when they were doing this, because that's what they wanted, to have Greater Serbia and to destroy whatever they could destroy.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mrs. Bicanic, I understand this explanation after yours, but it has nothing to do with my question. I asked you about your statement, and I will read out from it. "In 1990, there was a referendum and the Croats were very happy but the Serbs were not happy at all."
A. Because they wanted Greater Serbia; that's why they were not happy. They attempted to have a Greater Serbia, and that's how it all played out.
Q. All right, Mrs. Bicanic. How do you explain the fact that the Serbs were not happy about the referendum concerning the separation of 25521 Croatia from Yugoslavia?
A. I don't know.
Q. But you say that's why they were not happy.
A. They were happy. They got it all. They surrounded places. They killed whoever they wanted. How wouldn't they be happy?
Q. All right, Mrs. Bicanic. In the same paragraph you say that "Serbs as early as the summer of 1990 erected barricades on roads."
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Did you see any of these barricades?
A. I didn't see the barricades or the people who erected them, but it was all blocked. We were surrounded, isolated, like we sitting in this room. We couldn't move out. We could use up whatever stocks we had at home, and the few supplies we had in stores until the very attack started. We were surrounded, encircled, like we in this room. We couldn't go out anywhere.
Q. All right. But did these people who told you about these barricades ever tell you where exactly they were located?
A. I couldn't tell you. I didn't go there, and I didn't really interrogate anyone about them. I just heard about these barricades.
Q. But was it in Saborsko itself?
A. At the entrance to Saborsko, going towards Licka Jesenica.
Q. Did you at least see that one barricade at the entrance to Saborsko?
A. Did you hear what I said? I didn't move anywhere. I only stuck to my house. 25522
Q. Is Saborsko a Croatian village?
A. Croatian. And there were also four Serbs, four Serb neighbours living there.
Q. So was it the locals, the inhabitants of that village who erected the barricades?
A. They had no reason to. They were not afraid of anything. These four Serbs were together with us in that basement and we got on well together until the last moment.
Q. So who erected this barricade in your village?
A. These people from Jesenica.
Q. You mean the people from the neighbouring village?
A. Yes, the neighbours. It's their territory.
Q. Okay. On page 2, in paragraph 3, you say that in the beginning of June 1991, the Serbs started opening fire on your village.
A. Yes.
Q. And they mainly shot at the school building and the church.
A. Yes. That was inevitable. Every house got its share.
Q. All right, Mrs. Bicanic. What was it special about the school building and the church so that they shot at them?
A. Well, they were normal, regular buildings. Children went to school. And these two buildings had it the worst, got the most bullets and were eventually razed.
Q. Were any weapons situated on top of the church and the school building that were targets?
A. No, there was nothing. There were even very few policemen and 25523 very few people who had any weapons, and those were small rifles. That was the heaviest weapon anyone had, including the police.
Q. You say that at that time nine inhabitants of Saborsko got killed.
A. Yes, from machine-gun fire from a plane. We couldn't stick our heads out whenever we could hear a plane. And if we were out having breakfast, if we happened to be out, we had to move right back in, and these nine people were shot while on the road, from a plane.
Q. So it was machine-gun fire from aircraft.
A. Yes, when planes were flying over.
Q. When was it exactly, this bombing from planes?
A. In 1991. It all happened in the summer, in that period, from August to November. In November we fell.
Q. All right. But you say that Saborsko was bombed from airplanes. What was it that airplanes had to bomb in Saborsko?
A. How do I know? They wanted to destroy it. It was a small village. There were no troops, nothing. There were only civilians mostly and people defending themselves and standing guard.
Q. All right. But you say yourself, Mrs. Bicanic, on page 3 of your statement, in paragraph -- in the first paragraph, that "Around October 1991, two truckloads of Croatian soldiers with around 50 men arrived."
A. Yes. They brought some aid in food and we got some small arms then, and that was nothing; it's a drop in the sea.
Q. So 50 soldiers arrived and weapons.
A. Well, a defence team, a defence force came. Because we were by that time unable to survive. We were afraid we would be slaughtered. We 25524 were not expecting so much army to come to our door and attack us. We were unable to defend ourselves because it was such a great force against such a small village.
Q. How did they manage to come with trucks -- on trucks to Saborsko?
A. They went through the woods, crept at night.
Q. How did they creep on trucks?
A. Through the woods, because everything was blocked, everything was surrounded. There were guards everywhere. We could see that there was nowhere to run. It was all people from your side.
Q. Very well, Mrs. Bicanic. But did you find out how they managed to reach you by truck through the woods?
A. How they managed? They didn't fight or anything like that? Somehow peacefully they managed to get there. They stealthily managed to pass, the way thieves do. They tried to defend it but they didn't defend anything.
Q. Very well. You say that these two trucks brought 50 soldiers and weapons; isn't that right?
A. Yes, some rifles and some very small weapons.
Q. What do you mean "small weapons"?
A. I mean small arms; rifles and a couple of grenades perhaps.
Q. And you're quite sure that there were only two trucks, in view of the fact there were 50 men bringing food and weapons, and all this fitted into two trucks?
A. Two trucks. There weren't more than that.
Q. And was there a police station in Saborsko? 25525
A. Yes.
Q. How many policemen were there there?
A. Ten or so, and some civilians, a few elderly people. That was all we had to defend ourselves until these men arrived.
Q. Apart from these 50 soldiers that arrived, how many members of the TO were there in Saborsko?
A. Nothing. It's all one.
Q. On page 3, in the second paragraph, you say that social workers in July 1991 - so this was prior to these events - came to Saborsko and evacuated elderly persons, children, and younger women; is that right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. How many people left Saborsko on that occasion?
A. Mostly the elderly, old women and children, and the children's mothers. But these were few. We didn't have that many people in the village. The people who were unfit and who couldn't walk, who couldn't flee, they left.
Q. I see. So those unfit for military service left.
A. People who could not run through the woods and small children who couldn't spend the night in the woods. We didn't spend the night in our homes but in the woods because of the shooting and the attack.
Q. And tell me how many inhabitants there were in Saborsko in all.
A. I couldn't tell you. I don't know. I'm not that literate to know these things.
Q. And how many people stayed on in Saborsko when these people had left in June 1991, all these women, children, the elderly men, and so on? 25526 How many people remained in Saborsko?
A. You mean when the attack occurred?
Q. Yes. How many people remained when these left?
A. Few. Some soldiers and some people; the elderly women and so on. And they waited for the last moment, until everything happened, until the attack came to destroy everything. And then people started fleeing, who managed to save their lives, they did.
Q. So only the men stayed behind, those capable of military service. All the others had left Saborsko.
A. No. Some women stayed behind too and men. Only the -- those who were unfit, who couldn't hide, the children and the old men left.
Q. Very well. On page 3, in the third paragraph, you say that "Heavy shelling of Saborsko started on the 5th of August, 1991."
A. Yes. Yes. I say "Kolovoz" for August.
Q. Yes, you say "Kolovoz" for August. And that the only two days when there was no shelling were the days prior to the fall of the village on the 12th of November; is that right?
A. For three months, from the 5th of August, there was shelling every day and there were helicopters flying over the village to Vukelic Poljana. And as they flew over; we knew that in the evening shelling would come.
Q. So from the 5th of August until the 12th of November.
A. Yes. Only in -- on the 12th of November there were two days prior to that that were peaceful. And then on the third day, that is, on the 12th of November, after this lull early in the morning, the planes started shelling and they didn't stop until they destroyed everything. That's it. 25527 BLANK PAGE 25528
Q. Tell me, Mrs. Bicanic, does that mean that Saborsko was shelled for all of three months?
A. Yes. Throughout a period of three months, they never stopped for a day.
Q. And on that day, you say your husband had two hand grenades on him.
A. Yes, to save his life. If he were to be captured alive, that he could kill himself, not to hand himself over alive.
Q. And what did the others have, in terms of weapons?
A. Rifles. Rifles. There weren't many weapons. They didn't have anywhere to get them from. Maybe from the heavens.
Q. And when this attack occurred, where were these soldiers and policemen, these 50 soldiers who came?
A. They were at positions, deployed. And when the planes came, their weapons and rifles were thrown away and each one of them fled, because they simply couldn't resist such a strong force.
Q. I understand that, as you explained it. But on page 3, in paragraph 7 you say that the circumstances quieted down that afternoon for two or three hours and that Nikola Bicanic, he was already deceased, that he should surrender.
A. Nikola was already dead by then. That's not correct. I said that when we were coming out of the woods, when everything was over. We fled from the basements. There was a lull. And at night for three days and three nights we went over there. And Nikola said this in the basement. When there was a lull -- the army had already entered the village, and he 25529 said it would be a good idea that we surrender.
Q. That's what I'm asking you about.
A. This Nikola in the basement, he said that you should surrender?
A. Yes, that we should come out with a white rag to surrender. Otherwise, we would all be killed down there. And as one was saying, "Give matches to start torching," and one woman had a little boy of five or six and she said, "Take his white shirt as a sign of surrender." This was in my street. I went out and saw two soldiers with those heavy weapons, those big rifles with something around on them. I don't know how you call them. I folded my hands like this and I begged them not to shoot. "There are no soldiers here, only men and women." And he said, "Tell them to come out." So I went to the door and told them, "Come out, come out." And then one by one they came out. One of them threw a grenade into the cellar, thinking that someone was still there. And then in front of the house they put the women under a threshold. Then they slapped my husband first, then Jure Vukovic, also he got a slap. Then Strk, Jure, and then his wife said, "Don't beat him." And he yelled at them. And others were cursing our mothers, saying that everyone should be slaughtered.
Outside, there were soldiers, and then these soldiers with five-cornered stars and helmets on their heads -- all this was happening very quickly. They moved about 10 or 15 metres down the road and took a turn at the next corner, and then they opened two bursts of fire, and then they were moving towards us. Again, again I folded my hands and begged them not to hurt us. And then two of them stood in front of them and 25530 said, "Where is your son? In the army?" I said, "In Osijek." "Is he in the Ustashas?" I said he was not. "And when did he leave?" I said, "In June." And then they looked at one another and waved their hands, telling us to move on, us women. And I looked in front of me along the main road, and on the main road there were so many soldiers and tanks that an egg couldn't drop between them.
Then I called out myself, "Let's go to Jesenica," to Nina. And he said, "Go on." And we ran to this Nina. And as we entered Jesenica, I asked this Nina, "Take us to Jesenica, please." And he said, "Not Jesenica. You mustn't go there. There's no one there. Everyone's been killed." But then there were people coming towards us from Jesenica. I couldn't tell whether they were soldiers or civilians. Mostly civilians. One had a coat over his head, I suppose not to be recognised. And then the others moved off, moved away, and we stopped and a man came towards us and said to Nina, "Nina, where are you going with those women?" And then he cursed, and "I wish I could get rid of them." And then he said, "Women, I don't wish to have your lives on my soul. Just flee. Go through the woods." And that is where we went during the night, until it became more peaceful. And after midnight nothing more could be heard.
JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Bicanic, I'm going to stop you now. The accused is going to ask you some questions. If there are any other details which are necessary, then the Prosecution can ask you some questions at the end. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mrs. Bicanic, as far as I was able to understand, many soldiers 25531 passed along that road. Is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So the soldiers didn't stop in the village but only passed through. You said there were tanks, trucks. This was an open road and the army was passing through.
A. Yes, and destroying along the way.
Q. So they destroyed things as they went along?
A. Yes, they razed everything to the ground. They left nothing behind.
Q. Very well. You mentioned two soldiers.
A. Those who killed people in my neighbourhood when they found us in the basement, I saw them. I looked them in the eye. They had helmets on their heads.
Q. And the soldiers passing along the road, what were they doing? All those tanks and trucks and vehicles, did they have anything to do with your village?
A. Well, they destroyed it, they razed it to the ground. They did what they wanted, and then they went on.
Q. You say that one of the soldiers took out a Croatian police uniform from somewhere.
A. Yes. And he said, "Look, this is an Ustasha nest," and he threw it on the ground. This was a police uniform from the police quarters, where they slept.
Q. And he asked you to tell him who it belonged to; is that correct?
A. He didn't ask anything. He just threw it down onto the ground and 25532 he said, "Look, here's an Ustasha nest."
Q. Whose uniform was that?
A. It belonged to a policeman. The policemen used to sleep in that house, but they ran away when the attack started. We fled every which way. Everybody fled as best they could.
Q. So where did these 50 soldiers flee and these policemen and the citizens?
A. Oh, they ran every which way, towards Bosnia, towards Slunj, whenever they could. Whoever could find a way out of that hell, fled.
Q. Very well. Tell me who of the soldiers that you knew - because they'd spent a few months there - and the policemen, which of them were killed?
A. Quite a few were killed; five or six.
Q. And the others fled?
A. Yes, they fled. Whoever managed to do so, to save his life, he fled.
Q. Mrs. Bicanic, how many people were killed in Saborsko in all these attacks?
A. Are you asking about civilians or altogether?
Q. How many people altogether?
A. 54 or more.
Q. And this is throughout these three months of bombardment and the attack?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Saborsko is on the main road? 25533
A. What does that mean? That they were killed in their own houses.
Q. Yes, I understand. But how many soldiers and policemen were killed?
A. Quite a few; about 10.
Q. Very well. You say that a uniform was found there. Did any of your neighbours change into civilian clothes?
A. No. Why should they? What would they change into?
Q. You say that some 15 minutes later some men were taken behind the house belonging to Ivan Bicanic. Is this correct?
A. Yes, my husband and seven men, and they were killed from a machine-gun.
Q. Very well. You were on one side and they were taken behind the house.
A. We were all together, and we were looking at them. There's a road - it's like this room here - and the houses were on opposite sides. And the distance was like from that wall to this one.
Q. On page 4, paragraph 2, you say that you saw those same two soldiers whom you had seen before when you surrendered, that they shot and killed all these men.
A. When we surrendered and left the house, they took those men, they slapped them, they took whatever they had in their pockets, then they took them some 10 metres away from us and fired bursts of machine-gun fire at them.
Q. So these are the same two soldiers?
A. Yes, yes. They were the only ones whom I saw killing. I didn't 25534 see others killing.
Q. Yes. So these two who robbed you, they were the ones who did that?
A. How would I know what the others were doing all over the place?
Q. Very well. And after that, you went to a village -- or rather, a Serbian hamlet called Solaja in Borik.
A. Yes, yes. We took refuge there. And Nina went off to Jesenica.
Q. Very well. And there you met other Serbs; is that correct?
A. No, no.
Q. And soldiers?
A. No, no.
Q. So you met no one?
A. No one.
Q. So there was no one in that Serbian village?
A. No. They were all out in the field, because we took paths through the woods and we hid.
Q. Yes, but you wanted to go to Licka Jesenica.
A. Yes, because we were on good terms with them. We weren't expecting anything bad. They were tradesmen. They were teachers.
Q. Well, the person who prevented you from going to Licka Jesenica, he was a Serbian soldier?
A. No, he wasn't a soldier. He was a civilian and he was together with them.
Q. Was he a Serb or a Croat?
A. He was a Serb. There was another man called Bogdan, but we didn't 25535 BLANK PAGE 25536 see him on that day but he walked around the village and he was hiding together with us, and he showed us his booklet. He had a booklet which said "SAO Krajina," as he said, and he was there with us.
Q. So the man who told you not to go to Jesenica, he said he didn't want to have your lives on his conscience and that you should go and hide.
A. Yes. Yes. He was a man from Jesenica and he was a civilian. I don't know what his name was.
Q. Very well. He was wearing civilian clothes. When you speak of the soldiers who carried out this murder --
A. Yes.
Q. -- can you describe their uniforms? You said that they had dark grey uniforms on; is that correct?
A. Camouflage uniforms and they had white patches, and others had camouflage uniforms without those patches, but the two -- these two, they had the JNA uniforms with the five-pointed star, the ones who committed the murders.
Q. I understood you to say that they had dark grey, as you say, Serbian uniforms.
A. No. They were kind of greyish, multicoloured.
Q. The two soldiers who committed this murder, in your opinion were they members of the JNA or were they reservists or territorials?
A. How should I know what they were? But they had military uniforms on. They had real military uniforms on.
Q. And you didn't know any of them?
A. No. 25537
Q. Did any of the other people present on that occasion have any knowledge about these men and who they were? Did anybody else know them?
A. No, no one knew them. No.
Q. Very well, Mrs. Bicanic. I have no further questions for you.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no questions.
MS. BAUER: Your Honours, I have only two questions. Re-examined by Ms. Bauer:
Q. Ms. Bicanic, at the time of the killing of your husband on that day, when you were hiding in the basement, did your husband have any other weapon at that time?
A. No, no weapon. These people didn't have any weapons at all at that time, except that they stood guard. They had patrol duty. You know what they did, including my husband? They would patrol at night, because they were afraid. They were afraid that people would be slaughtered, so they found cans --
Q. Mrs. Bicanic, let me interrupt you here one moment. I'm talking on the day your husband was killed, did he have any weapon at that time, when he was killed?
A. No. No, no. No, none of them had. Of those seven, none of them had anything.
Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Bicanic. That's all I wanted to ask you.
A. Thank you. Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Bicanic, thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give evidence. Your evidence is now over and you're free to go. 25538
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. Thank you. Thank you very much.
[The witness withdrew]
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, I can explain the reasons why we have actually not brought Mr. Josipovic today.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But we actually can reinstall him, but I will explain the situation first.
We have, as you all know, a priority list of witnesses given the time constraints for the Prosecution to present the case. And we had for the first week of -- after the summer break scheduled a huge number of Croatian witnesses, which are of this priority group 1, the absolutely necessary witnesses. Mr. Josipovic was not among them, because his evidence is actually covered already by another witness. But it turned out that several of the priority 1 witnesses, crime-base witnesses from Croatia were not available, and that is why we scheduled Mr. Josipovic. He was actually the only one available. And as he has some -- he has some important evidence, we thought it's worth calling him. Now, after the two trial days this week, we got the impression that there is a delay and we would not get through all the witnesses that we scheduled for this week. And just yesterday we decided to then withdraw Mr. Josipovic from this week, because especially the next Bosnia witness needs to be finished this week and be sent home. But Mr. Josipovic is still here, and he -- the proofing will be 25539 concluded this morning and we could call him. But if it is -- if it occurs, he would need to be wrapped around the next Bosnia witness, who actually needs to go back tomorrow, and that's why we actually decided to withdraw him. There's nothing suspicious about it.
JUDGE MAY: So the position is this: That you haven't yet made a final decision about this witness; is that right?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We had made a decision yesterday, but we can reinstall him. It's not a -- it's -- we could call him, but we actually had decided rather not. But now it looks actually that we are much faster than we expected it to be, so the time constraints that we saw for this week seemed to disappear.
JUDGE MAY: But the position is that the next Bosnian witness, who will be the witness after this; is this right?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
JUDGE MAY: This is your last witness today, we understand.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Sutalo is actually the next witness we thought would testify today. The next witness could start, but it would actually have to be Mr. Josipovic, because one of the Bosnian witnesses has fallen sick. She is actually at the doctor's. And the other one is only arriving this afternoon.
JUDGE MAY: All right. But did I understand you right? One of the Bosnian witnesses has to finish this week?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, absolutely, the male one.
JUDGE MAY: Well, let us call this witness, and then we can consider this. 25540
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I mean, we can see how far we get with the next witness. And then if there is enough time, to also have Mr. Josipovic, we are -- we of course would do that, because he is here and available.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm glad that the witness is here, and he will be followed by B-1054, according to the list I have.
JUDGE MAY: Let us -- we'll consider that. We're going to consider it when we've heard this witness, as to the form in which the witnesses will be taken, the order.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: LUKA SUTALO
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat. Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
Q. Please state your name, sir.
A. Luka Sutalo.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, did you give a statement to an investigator of the 25541 Office of the Prosecutor in 1999?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. In June of this year, did you review your statement in the presence of an officer of the court and confirm its accuracy except for one minor correction?
A. Yes.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to tender the Rule 92 bis package into evidence.
JUDGE MAY: Give it a generic number, please, the next Prosecution exhibit number.
THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 520, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I will now read briefly the summary of the evidence of this witness, including only a very few questions for clarification.
Mr. Sutalo is a Croatian inhabitant of Erdut and was 65 years old during the events. In May 1991, he saw that JNA tanks and mortars began to mass on the other side of the Danube River. In July 1991, two weeks before the main attack, the JNA started to fire from machine-guns across the river during the night. A week before the 1st of August, 1991, the JNA shelled the village with mortars.
On the 1st of August, 1991, the witness observed JNA tanks entering Erdut. The tanks shelled Erdut as they drove past on their way to Dalj, just south of Erdut. Hearing that many Croat people had been killed in Dalj, the witness and his wife went to Serbia, on the other side 25542 BLANK PAGE 25543 of the Danube River. There he was arrested by the JNA military police, interrogated, mistreated, and beaten, and he was partially held in a factory building over three subsequent days.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, I have one question in relation to paragraph 11 of your statement, where you mentioned that four or five other men were also arrested at that time in Serbia and among them were Zvonko Tucak and a certain Mata. And my question to you is: What ethnicity did these and the other few men that were arrested together with you have?
A. They were Croats. Croats.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue now with the summary. On the 4th of August, 1991, the witness was allowed to return to his house in Erdut but told to attend a meeting in Dvor during which a new government was to be formed. During this meeting, a man who introduced himself as Marko Loncarevic said that this was not Croatia any more, it was now Serbia, and the Croat people could not rule any more and would no longer be part of the government.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, in relation to this meeting in Dvor, you said -- it says in paragraph 19 of your statement that a form of local government was to be formed, including members of all three ethnic groups. And my question to you is: What kind of a government was this and did Croatian inhabitants actually participate in any governmental function?
A. That meeting was convened by Lieutenant Colonel Kosutic. It was attended by Croats, Serbs, and Hungarians. At that meeting, a demand was made by Lieutenant Colonel Kosutic to elect some sort of government that would rule the village, and he admitted himself that it would not be a 25544 democratic government but it had to govern democratically. When the people were finally elected, there were Serbs, Croats, and Hungarians; but in the future, Croats and Hungarians were never invited. Only the Serbs were actually on that government.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue now with the summary. Over the next several weeks, the witness had to report to the local police on a regular basis and was interrogated frequently. Restrictions of movement were imposed on the witness and others. Houses were searched and looted. On the 15th of August, 1991, the witness was ordered to join a work crew consisting of Croats and Hungarians, repairing the TO facility in Erdut, which was clearly being prepared for occupation.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, I have a question in relation to what you said about the restrictions of movements. These restrictions of movements, did they apply to the entire population, including Serbs?
A. No. The curfew at the beginning was set at 8.00 p.m. And after a month or so, they extended it to 9.00 p.m. The only thing I want to point out is that it only applied to Croats and Hungarians. It did not apply to Serbs. They went wherever they wanted, and we were the only ones who were not allowed to move out of our houses and yards.
Q. Were houses of Serb inhabitants searched or looted?
A. No. Only Croat property.
Q. Were Serbs ordered to work in a work group like you were working in?
A. Not that I know of. They didn't work. Only Croats and Hungarians worked, chopping wood, picking corn, cleaning stables. 25545
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue with the summary. On the 25th of August, 1991, the witness was arrested while working in the orchard near his house, cutting grass. He was taken to the police station in Dalj and detained in a small room for about a week with seven or eight others. During the night, Mr. Sutalo was interrogated. Although he himself was not beaten, his fellow detainees were beaten. From Dalj, the witness was transferred to a large stable or workshop in Borovo Selo and kept there for several days. When the witness arrived, there were about 80 prisoners there. The detainees were beaten severely on a regular basis and one detainee, a Croatian policeman from Bilje had a "U" cut into his forehead with a knife. The witness and some other detainees were then transferred to the Borovo Selo police station for a few days, where they were kept in a room in knee-deep water. Then they were returned to the previous cell in the Dalj police station. There the mistreatment continued. Most of the detainees were beaten every single night and during the daytime too.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, I have just one question: In relation to your fellow detainees in Dalj and Borovo Selo, what ethnicity did these other detainees have?
A. They were mostly Croats and Hungarians.
Q. You mentioned also a Haso Brajic in paragraph 44 of your statement. What ethnicity did he have?
A. He was of Islamic faith, a Bosniak who lived in Croatia.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue with the summary. Two or three days after the witness was taken back to the Dalj 25546 police station, Arkan came to the police station with several of his men. He introduced himself and cursed the detainees with ethnic slurs. His men beat the detainees while Arkan watched. During the beating, several of the detainees were seriously injured.
Towards the end of September 1991, Haso Brajic was detained in -- was taken into the witness cell after he had been severely beaten in the yard.
In the night of the 22nd of September, 1991, several men in camouflage uniforms appeared in the cell. One of them asked for the witness. The witness identified himself and the man said, "You are coming with me. I'm taking you home." At that point, Slavko Palinkas, a fellow detainee said, "Mr. President, take me as well." At the time, the witness had no idea why Palinkas referred to the man as "Mr. President." The man also secured Palinkas's release. The witness only subsequently learned that the man was Goran Hadzic.
The witness was taken into the yard of the police station, where he saw approximately 30 to 40 men he calls Chetniks, and among them was Arkan. The witness was driven to Erdut. On the way to Erdut, Goran Hadzic asked him if he had been beaten. The witness replied that he personally wasn't but what was happening to the others was horrible because they were beating innocent people. Goran Hadzic asked the witness how he knew that they were innocent and the witness replied that they were men captured in their gardens or fields, just working, and Goran Hadzic said, "These days everyone is beating everyone else." The witness never saw Haso Brajic or any of the other detainees 25547 left behind when he was released.
After this event, people in the village began to disappear. On Christmas Eve, a bomb was thrown into the witness's yard and caused damage to his house. When the witness reported this event, a commission came to investigate; however, when they found out that the witness was a Croat, they said, "That explains it," and left it at that and nothing happened. The witness applied for a permit to leave Erdut. Before the permit was granted, the witness had to sign over his house and all of his property to the village council.
Q. And in this -- in relation to this, Mr. Sutalo, I have just two questions: Why did you leave Erdut?
A. Well, they had begun to mistreat me, to blackmail me, to threaten me, and I realised I couldn't go on living there. I had to run. And even before that some Croats had started to flee because they had been beaten up, threatened, and mistreated, and it was not possible to live there anywhere. You were not allowed to move around. You were not allowed to visit anyone. The only way out was to run. Run where, I didn't know. I was going into total uncertainty.
Q. And so why did you sign over your property?
A. Well, in order to the stay alive, because I had to run away. People had started to go missing, to be beaten, to be detained.
Q. Sir, was it required to be allowed to leave?
A. Well, that was the only way out if you wanted to save your neck. I had to run away.
Q. Sir, my question actually was related to the signing over of the 25548 property. Did you have to do that to be allowed to leave or not?
A. Well, otherwise I couldn't get the document allowing me to leave, to go across the bridge to Serbia. It was a condition, a precondition for obtaining this permit to leave.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the Prosecution.
JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I would like you to clarify in what context the photo of the accused is included in this packet.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these were just the attachments -- attachments to his -- his statement, and it's actually showing basically photos of Arkan. He was shown -- the investigator showed photos to the witness from which he actually had to say whether he recognised any person, and he did recognise Arkan.
JUDGE KWON: It was just the recognition.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, just the recognition of the person who he met, as being Arkan.
JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just before I start, let us clarify one thing. I apologise to Mr. Kwon, because I haven't quite understood his question. I don't have a photograph in my package. Is Mr. Kwon asking what photograph of mine is included?
JUDGE MAY: No. Look at the -- the package you should have been given today. You should have just been handed one. Ask you'll see some photographs. 25549 BLANK PAGE 25550
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I've only just received this before the examination of Mr. Sutalo. I received a package. Yes, at the end there are some photographs. I just can't understand -- oh, I see. This is my photograph. This is a photo montage. It is shot at a funeral. Here in front is my daughter. Right there is a general. This is a photograph from a funeral ceremony at the new cemetery, and I believe it was the funeral of Radovan Stojicic.
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What has it got to do with this?
JUDGE MAY: Well, you heard the evidence. It was shown -- or some photographs were shown to the witness from the point of view of recognition. It was in particular in relation to Arkan. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, is it right that the only photograph of significance is the Arkan photograph?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. The others we can dispense with?
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I don't understand at all how come that I receive such packages just before the witness comes in. I really have no time to review the documents. I can't see the point of this practice. But let us not waste any more time.
JUDGE MAY: I imagine the documents were probably disclosed to you a very long time ago and also at the time in which the application was made for the 92 bis statement to be admitted. But in this case, there's absolutely no prejudice at all. 25551 Yes, let's start.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in view of this remark, I only wish to tell you, Mr. May, that, for instance, for the witness following Josipovic, which is 1054, I haven't got the statement yet. I have checked through my associates; all we received is the transcript. I haven't got even a statement for that witness.
JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with that in due course, when we get to that witness. But let's start the cross-examination of this witness.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sutalo, is it true that before the elections in 1990, the relations among residents of Erdut belonging to various ethnicities were, as you described them in your statement, "perfect"?
A. Mr. Milosevic, until the arrival of the Jugo army on the 1st of August, 1991, we lived as one family. In Erdut, there were mixed marriages between Croats and Serbs. We attended each other's funerals, celebrations of saint's day, Christmas Eve, and we lived as one family indeed. When the Jugo army arrived to our village, it was like all the devils had come upon us. They stopped talking to us, they stopped acknowledging us, they stopped all contact with us. Looting began, threats, and all sorts of evil. Even when I was detained by Mr. Kosutic, some colonel - I don't know any more who it was, Milo Savljevic or Rade Savljevic - came to ask me what kind of relations we had between us. And I answered, "Please don't do anything to ruin this. Just let your men stay where they are and everything will be all right." But nobody 25552 listened to me. They acted according to the principle "divide and rule."
Q. Mr. Kosutic, you said, "Since the Jugo army came." I asked you about this because I read your statement, and your statement is your testimony. It's one and the same thing because your viva voce testimony is very little. I'll read out to you what you wrote. You didn't write about the arrival of the Yugoslav army that ruined your interpersonal relations. You wrote the following: "Prior to the elections in 1990" -- I'm reading from your statement. "Prior to the elections in 1990, relations between the different ethnic groups in Erdut were almost perfect. We got along well. We attended each other's weddings, funerals, and feasts. This was due in part to the multitude of mixed marriages we had."
And then - I'm not skipping anything - you go on to say: "When the HDZ party was formed, I became its member. Meetings were held in Stjepan Lucan's house in Orasje on the outskirts of Erdut.." And then you mentioned who the president was, and then the next paragraph goes: "After the elections in 1990 --" and I repeat, after at the elections, not after the arrival of any army. You say, "-- the local Serbs stopped talking to us Croats and avoided us. There was no explanation or reason given for this behaviour, but it was obvious that they wanted to cause a rift between us. Although Serbs accounted for only 26 per cent of our population in Erdut, they had the best jobs."
So why is it that after the elections -- in fact, first after the establishment of the HDZ party and then all the time you're talking about 1990, why did a rift follow? Why did the relations deteriorate? 25553
A. Because when this man of yours, Raskovic, came and held that speech about the Serbs -- or to the Serbs in Dalj - it was a pre-election meeting - he issued -- he distributed those documents to Serbs on how they should act.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, as far as I know, Professor Raskovic was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party, which also existed in Croatia in 1990 and ran in the elections.
A. Yes. But he carried that fuse throughout Croatia.
Q. What he carried, I don't know, but he was a Serb from Krajina. He was a renowned psychiatrist or a neurological psychiatrist, I don't know any more. He was the founder of the Serbian Democratic Party in Croatia. And as you well know, we didn't even know him, we in Serbia at that time. And you also know that in your parts, in Eastern Slavonia, most Serbs voted for the League of Communists of Croatia, SHSDP.
A. I don't know who they voted for. I know how they acted later.
Q. You know how many deputies they had in the Croatian Assembly precisely from your area, from your list.
A. I don't know about that.
Q. Well, you could have read about it in the newspapers. There was a list of assemblymen. So when was it that relations deteriorated? When the HDZ came into power or a little before that?
A. No, no. After that rally held by Raskovic, it's then that they received instructions on how to act. Because I had a lady neighbour who said, "We are not allowed to talk to you Croats." I asked, "Why?" And she said, "Because we got orders not to talk to you," and that's it. And 25554 some Serbs just said in passing, "You Croats are going to come to a bad end, something bad is in the offing for you."
Q. Well, didn't you have enough proof that Serbs were not in favour of Raskovic because they didn't vote for his party?
A. Mr. Milosevic, I don't know who voted for whom.
Q. Well, you can know that, because his deputies were -- his MPs were not elected there. Let's not waste any more time on this. Let's go on. Do you know anything about what happened from then onwards, from 1990, and how the status of the Serbs changed or how they were treated by official authorities? Let me not specify. Do you know anything at all?
A. I do. I know that not a single Serb in Erdut was struck, robbed, or threatened before the army arrived.
Q. Mr. Sutalo, you say that until the army came. When did the army come?
A. When they, Croatian policemen in Borovo, were killed. Then immediately after that, the Jugo army brought its tanks along the road, along the bank of Danube towards Croatia, and they came up to the bridge. And these three tanks stood on the Erdut bridge all the way up to the 1st of August. Around the 10th of July, Jugo army shelled us from Bogojevo and it was our good fortune that nobody was killed. The second shelling was around the 12th of July, and on that occasion seven policemen were killed.
On the 1st of August, they moved to invade Croatia. As soon as they arrived, as soon as they crossed the bridge and reached the first populated area in Erdut, they immediately started firing artillery shells. 25555 One of them fell into a pigsty of Mate Vukovic and killed a pig. Another one fell into a house, and another one into a neighbour's yard.
Q. Was there -- were there any casualties from this artillery fire except that sow?
A. There were no casualties. On the first day, they destroyed Nikola Erduat's [phoen] house and another house. I don't know why, because they were offered no resistance. There was no resistance at all. And why were they shooting? They must have wanted to show clearly their intentions to the Croatian people.
Q. Let us not speculate about their intentions now. You said they were responding to the events in Borovo Selo. Do you know that it was precisely the JNA, which you refer to as Jugo army, saved Croatian policemen in Borovo Selo, without firing a single round? Instead, it intervened, diffused the clash, and enabled the Croatian people, who had gone there and opened fire at people, to be pulled out and save their lives. Do you know that, Mr. Sutalo?
A. I don't know what exactly happened. All I know is that 12 Croatian policemen were killed. Why were they killed if there was no resistance?
Q. I don't think you are giving evidence here about Borovo Selo. I was just asking you this question because you mentioned the Jugo army and Borovo Selo. It was precisely in the case of Borovo Selo that this army separated the two conflicting parties and saved --
JUDGE MAY: Now, this is argument which you run with all the witnesses. You see, you complain that he's giving evidence about Borovo 25556 BLANK PAGE 25557 Selo, but you ask it. But in any event, this witness wasn't in Borovo Selo at the time and can give no direct evidence, so there seems little point asking this witness -- or putting to this witness what you say happened or what the role of the JNA was. Now, there may be witnesses who can deal with this more directly, and we'll hear from them. But there's little point putting it to a witness who wasn't there.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not want to raise this. The witness himself mentioned the intervention of the Jugo army in Borovo Selo and this intervention is very well known. It was very positive and constructive, because they had stopped the conflict without firing a single round.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, you can say what you please, but the Jugo army is to blame for everything, headed by you. Because if you had said a single word, if you had said "Enough" --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sutalo, let us confirm the evidence, if we can, and we'll confine the questioning to the matters that you can deal with directly, your own experiences in Dalj and also in Borovo Selo police station.
Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. All right, Mr. Sutalo. Where did you get the idea that I commanded the Yugoslav army in 1991?
A. You were the president.
JUDGE MAY: No. Let's -- let's not go into that. Now, come on. Let's deal with the evidence which this witness can give directly. 25558
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm just responding to what the witness says, Mr. May.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. You say, Mr. Sutalo, that in May 1991 tanks started to build up on the other bank of the Danube, across the bridge, and that local Serbs were seen crossing over.
A. Yes.
Q. Some of them were suspected of being, as you say here, collaborators. In para 6 of your statement, I read, "Some of them were believed to be collaborators, amongst them Bozidar Purkovic, Jovo Mihajlovic," and so on.
A. This Mihajlovic --
Q. Now, tell me, it was all one and the same country. Our citizens went to the neighbouring Hungary, Austria, Germany, travelled to all European countries. What does it mean "some people were crossing the bridge over to Serbia"? What do you mean "some Serbs went over to Serbia"? Everybody was free to go everywhere, and even you ended up going to Serbia to save your neck.
A. Yes, but it was with different reasons. This Purkovic, I don't know exactly when he fled, it was 10 or 15 days prior, and he only returned when the Jugo army came. And this other man, Mihajlovic, had spent a lot of time there, and he was trying to recruit other men and he was saying that there would be an invasion of Croatia, and later on he met with some Chetniks. In fact, I didn't see it for myself, but I heard that he had something to do, some connections with the Chetniks, and he was 25559 holding some meetings.
Q. But it was not with the Jugo army, as you call it.
A. That is a different thing. The Jugo army was there, and they occupied -- they came to the bridge and occupied us, and all sorts of evil started with that. I don't understand why you keep defending this Jugo army so badly, because you know they are to blame for everything. They had the weapons --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sutalo, you're giving evidence. If you would confine your answers, please, to the questions, rather than trying to interrogate the accused.
Now, the time has come for us to adjourn. There is one matter before we adjourn, and that's the question of whether you're going to call Mr. Josipovic next. There should be a -- there should be time at least to start his evidence today, and that might be an appropriate course. But let me consult.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you're prepared to call Mr. Josipovic, we can begin his evidence today. We can interpose the other witness, who has to get away, tomorrow but hopefully finish them both tomorrow.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We also are in a position to distribute the 92 bis package within this break, I hope. Yes.
JUDGE MAY: For Mr. Josipovic.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. 25560
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because we didn't provide it today because we thought he wouldn't testify.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. Mr. Sutalo, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes. Could you please remember, as we warn all witnesses, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.
We'll adjourn now, twenty minutes.
--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Tell me, please: I didn't quite understand you, Mr. Sutalo. What did you have in mind when you say that these men that we mentioned were collaborators?
A. Because they went over there before the invasion of Croatia, and they returned the day the Jugo army arrived, and they immediately became some sort of commanders in those organisations, which I can call Chetnik or whatever.
Q. These two that you mentioned.
A. Yes, yes.
Q. What kind of invasion are you talking about? Wasn't the JNA in many garrisons throughout Croatia even before that date?
A. Yes. But they did what was bad. They beat and opened fire from tanks. Why did they come with 150 tanks to Croatia? Who invited them to 25561 come?
Q. Very well, Mr. Sutalo. Are you aware of the fact that the JNA never shelled Erdut?
A. How can you say anything like that, when it shelled at the beginning of July? Certainly more than 50 shells fell on the village of Erdut, from Bogojevo. And then on the 20th of July, they killed six policemen in Erdut. They fired at least 100 shells on Erdut.
Q. Was that when these policemen were killed?
A. Yes, but also around the 10th of July some 50 shells were fired on Erdut from Bogojevo, with the VBR. And this was also with the VBR when the policemen were killed. And then every night, from Bogojevo, there were tracer rockets and bullets flying over Erdut. What they were targeting, I don't know, but this was being done by the Jugo army.
Q. So I see; they were firing over Erdut, not at Erdut.
A. How could that be when they destroyed houses and properties?
Q. But when you were explaining a moment ago, no one was killed.
A. Not the first time. But the second time, I said that six policemen were killed.
Q. Very well. Tell me, since you say that on the 1st of August, 1991 at 3.00 you saw -- you heard some shooting from the direction of Dalj. It was indistinct. This continued roughly up until 9.00 or 10.00 a.m., and that the mayor of Osijek came on the radio telling all soldiers to go to defend Dalj. Is that right?
A. I don't know that. I don't know that.
Q. But I'm quoting you. You say, "On the 1st of August, 1991, I 25562 heard what sounded like shooting coming from Dalj. It was indistinct. This continued until around 9.00 or 10.00 a.m. The mayor of Osijek came on the radio telling all soldiers to go to defend Dalj," and now you say you don't know about it.
A. There was shooting, but I don't know that the town mayor called on the army to deal with it, but I know that there was shooting.
Q. So what it says here, that the town mayor called for the soldiers to defend Dalj, you didn't put that in your statement.
A. I don't know who put it there, but I am not aware that Mr. Kramaric called anyone.
Q. Very well. But you say that the forces attacking Dalj was followed by another column of some 50 tanks that were shelling Erdut, and then a third group of 50 or so of them entered Erdut. How many tanks did you see in your village?
A. There were three columns moving. I counted them. There were 50 tanks in each of those columns. The first, when it passed by, after about seven or eight minutes came the second column. And the second column started firing at the area of Orasje in Erdut. It's a settlement called Orasje. And that is where they started shooting. And then the third group, some tanks went to Erdut and they destroyed Edo Sakic's house and Nikola Jaman's house.
Q. Are you aware of what the JNA was doing there at the time? Do you know that the JNA was endeavouring to prevent a conflict?
A. It did not try to prevent the conflict. The third day after they had come, that is, on the 3rd of August, the Jugo army escorted as far as 25563 BLANK PAGE 25564 Bogojevo four or five buses of Croats from Dalj. Did they flee voluntarily or were they expelled is something I don't know.
Q. Wasn't that an event which shows that they were trying to save the civilian population and to help them remove them from the place of conflict?
A. Why didn't they protect the Croats, as they did the Serbs? Then nothing would have been needed.
Q. But they did protect them.
A. Yes, we see how they protected them, when they destroyed houses, looted, and took away everything. We know that best.
Q. Surely the JNA didn't do the looting.
A. Of course it did. I saw them taking electric engines from the water pump and from various other machines, carrying TV sets. I saw that with my own eyes. At my neighbour's there were four or five soldiers going through the houses during the battle of Vukovar. And then they would carry those TV sets, and they said they would give me one, but they took them away. They took whatever they could get hold of. That's what they did.
Q. Do you remember that just then the Ministry of Defence took a decision to eliminate paramilitary units and all those that were not part of the JNA?
A. I am not aware of that.
Q. During the period that you are testifying about, there were operations to expel paramilitary forces and to separate the parties to the conflict. 25565
A. I do know that in Erdut there was Arkan's office, where there was pre-military training during the former Yugoslavia. He was there. And then he built a wall three and a half metres high, saying that when Osijek fell, he would put Croats there in a camp.
Q. Was there anyone in that camp?
A. No, because Osijek didn't fall.
Q. So this was prepared for Osijek.
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. But there was no one there.
A. No, there wasn't anyone there because Osijek didn't fall. And anyway, they had expelled all the Croats and Hungarians before that.
Q. And do you know that at that time, between June and the 3rd of August, 1992, several tens of thousands of Serbs were expelled?
A. Where from?
Q. From various parts of Croatia.
A. Yes, yes. But I also know that we were expelled from there and they were put up in our homes, our houses. And I don't know who expelled them, but I do know who expelled us.
Q. From the municipalities of Novska, Orahovica, Virovitica, 52.000 Serbs -- in fact, up to 60 to 70.000 Serbs were expelled from those areas precisely in that time period.
A. That is something I'm not aware of.
Q. And are you aware of anything that happened from August 1990, that is, when organised attacks were staged against the JNA?
A. I don't know about that. 25566
Q. Do you know how many barracks were under blockade in your vicinity?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know at least of the siege of the barracks at Vukovar?
A. How could I know that, when I'm not from there?
Q. So you don't know anything about Vukovar.
A. I don't know anything.
Q. Do you know that there were reports to the European Troika and to Lord Carrington, who was chairing the international negotiations?
A. I don't know anything about that. I just know that when Vukovar was captured, they carried wheat from Vukovar. And I know that in one column, going from Croatia to Serbia, 76 tractors left and 32 combine harvesters crossed into Serbia.
Q. You saw that?
A. Yes, I saw that with my own eyes.
Q. And who drove those tractors and harvesters away?
A. Civilians, Serbs, I suppose. How do I know who was driving them? We didn't dare move around.
Q. You're saying civilians. I see. Very well.
A. Well, I assume. They weren't Croats.
Q. But you're a Croat.
A. Yes.
Q. And you also fled to Serbia.
A. I had to flee somewhere.
Q. Why did you flee to Serbia when you say Serbia attacked you? 25567
A. Well, who attacked us? Surely it wasn't the Hungarians.
Q. And then you fled to those who had attacked you to save you?
A. As soon as we crossed the bridge -- but we couldn't cross the bridge until we received passes. And once we received those passes and showed them at the bridge, then we were able to cross over. And once we were on the other side, we were free. No one asked us who we were or what we were.
Q. So in Serbia, no one asked you who you were or what you were. No one touched you.
A. No one did.
Q. And then on the other side you fought against one another.
A. With the blessing of the Jugo army.
Q. But the Jugo army was separating you.
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. Now, to be quite concrete in connection with what you say, that you were stopped by the military police on leaving the village and that you were arrested and taken to the small factory --
A. The Kudeljara, the rope-making factory.
Q. You call it a small factory, where your money and documents were seized from you.
A. Yes. Personally by Mr. Kosutic, by Lieutenant Colonel Kosutic.
Q. They didn't arrest your wife, did they?
A. No, they didn't.
Q. And you were not arrested by the JNA but by a local member of the Territorial Defence. 25568
A. No. Kosutic was the most important person then and he interrogated me and he questioned me and he took my documents and later returned them to me. And they tied me up there, to a table. There was a long table, about 10 metres long, and they tied me, Tucak, and this Mata. They tied us to this table. And then they beat them. They didn't beat me, but there was all kinds of things that went on.
Q. Very well. You yourself say that two men you recognised, someone called Zvonko Tucak from Erdut and another was Mata from Dalj.
A. He was a native of Sonta but he worked in Dalj.
Q. You say this was in a rope-making factory. That's paragraph 11. "I was put into a room that had a long table in it," and so on. "I recognised two --" let's not waste time. One was just mentioned. You say he was from Dalj. And both soldiers said, "Sutalo, get up. Come with me. The colonel wants to talk with you." I said, "How can I get up when I'm handcuffed like this," and so on. So these were men whom you knew and who were from Erdut.
A. Yes. Tucak was from Erdut, and Mata was from Dalj.
Q. Very well, Erdut and Dalj are very close to each other. They're in the same area.
A. Yes.
Q. And then they interrogated you about the Erdut police, about the patrols and so on.
A. Yes.
Q. They asked you whether you knew something about the forces, the paramilitaries of the Croatian side. 25569
A. Yes. They asked me questions. I can't remember everything they asked me, but Mr. Kosutic said, "Why did you flee?" And we said, "We weren't running away from the army but we are afraid of Chetniks." And he said, "There are no Chetniks any more. I have disarmed them." And just as he was saying that, a truck full of Chetniks came along, flying a Serbian flag. And I said, "Look at this." And he said, "Oh, dear. Yes, all sorts of things are happening, really."
Q. This only goes to show that this was not under his control.
A. I don't know under whose control it was.
Q. Let me just remind you. This is paragraph 12 of your statement: "After a while, Tucak was brought into the room and also questioned. The questioning didn't last long and we weren't beaten." That's what you say in your statement.
A. Well, we weren't beaten on that occasion, but before that we were.
Q. And then you say, "A soldier took us to a nearby weekend house, where inside they found my wife and another woman from Erdut named Ivanka Tesanac. I was told we would be spending the night here but we would have to return to the factory for further questioning in the morning."
A. Yes, that's how it was.
Q. So you were in fact free to go and they were just asking you for information; is this correct?
A. Yes. Kosutic himself took us to this weekend house. He brought someone from -- it used to belong to someone, a Hungarian called Kabik [phoen]. So he took us to this weekend house and on the following morning we went to see him again. And another Serb came along, a man called Kosta 25570 BLANK PAGE 25571 Sula [phoen]. And he said, "What's Sutalo doing here?" And he said he was locked up, and this man said, "Well, he's an honest man. Why don't you let him go?" And he said, "Well, since Kosta is guaranteeing for you, I'll let you go," and he let me and Tucak and my wife go and they took us home.
Q. Very well. And in connection with their cursing your Ustasha mother and then later taking you back to Erdut, is it clear that these were people who were not members of the JNA?
A. There were soldiers there as well, and they also cursed us. Some of them didn't. Some of them simply asked, "What's going on here?" I asked one of those soldiers, "What were you told when you set out against Croatia?" He said -- there were two of them there, in fact, and one of them said, "They didn't tell us anything." And the other one said, "Of course they did. Didn't they tell us that the Croats were slaughtering Serbs, robbing them, killing them, knifing little children? Our superiors told us all this when we set out for this place."
Q. Very well, Mr. Sutalo. Is it correct that they searched your house, looking for weapons, and that one of the soldiers found a Skorpion which you say was planted there?
A. Yes.
Q. And they released you on the 5th of August, and afterwards, as you mentioned earlier, you attended a meeting in Dvor, at which all, as you say, ethnic groups were represented, and the local government was elected, including representatives of all three ethnic groups; Serb, Croats, and Hungarians. Is this correct? 25572
A. Yes.
Q. And then a man from Dalj said that you were not to remain there any longer, but he was one of the people who was among you. He was one of you. Nobody asked him anything.
A. His name was Marko Loncarevic. I don't know what post he held, but he was a member of a Chetnik formation and he was in charge of everything. I saw at that meeting that he was someone who was defending Serbdom. He was one of the founders of the Krajina.
Q. You say that it was Colonel Kosutic who was in charge, that he called you together. This is in paragraph 19: "About 100 people were present and all the ethnic groups were represented. A local government was elected. Members of all three ethnic groups formed the government (Serb, Croat, and Hungarian)."
A. That's how it was on that day.
Q. "Present and in charge of the meeting which lasted about half an hour was Colonel Kosutic who said at the outset that we were there to elect representatives of the government," that it wasn't democratic because there were only about 100 of you there, but those were the circumstances, but that they would have to act in a democratic way. Is this correct?
A. Yes, but they didn't do that. It was only the Serbs who ruled.
Q. Very well. That's what happened later. I'm asking you about this meeting which Colonel Kosutic had with you, insisting that you should be part of the local government -- or rather, that it should include both Serbs, Croats, and Hungarians. 25573
A. Yes.
Q. And the man who said that you were not to be represented in the government had nothing to do with the JNA.
A. I don't know. He wasn't wearing a military uniform, and what he was, I don't know.
Q. And you say -- which is why I'm asking you, because you said something else just a moment ago. I will quote paragraph 21 of your statement: "After the JNA had taken Erdut, there was no curfew or military law." And then you go on to say, "After this meeting, this changed. Telephone and electricity lines were disconnected. There was no radio or television. A checkpoint was set up in every single street, a curfew was imposed," and so on.
A. That was on the third day, when they introduced the curfew only for us Croats.
Q. You don't say that the curfew was imposed only on you Croats, nor could the JNA, if they had patrols in the streets, have been able to introduce a curfew for the Croats only, rather than for all citizens.
A. Nobody asked me about Croats and Serbs. But now that you are asking me, I'm telling you how it was, because as soon as it got dark and I went outside in the evening, you could hear glass shattering somewhere. You could see cars driving around. And then the looting of Croatian houses would begin.
Q. This was during the curfew. Well, probably that's why the army imposed the curfew, to prevent this happening.
A. Yes, for us, but they didn't do anything to them, nor did they 25574 stop them. On the 24th of December, a hand grenade was thrown in front of my house. I think it was thrown at the house. It was supposed to be thrown into the house, but it hit a metal gate. And I reported this to -- I think his name was Colonel Covic. I reported it to him, and then a military commission arrived, a lieutenant, a captain, and this Colonel Covic, and three policemen from the Krajina also came and three Chetnik -- Chetniks, members of a Chetnik organisation. And they questioned me. They all sat round the table. They all took notes. They took down the information I was giving them and then suddenly the colonel said, "This wasn't meant for you. It was meant for your next-door neighbour." My next-door neighbour was a Serb. And I said, "No, no, Comrade Colonel, this was meant for me." And he said, "I apologise for asking you, but what are you by ethnicity?" And I said, "We are Croats." As soon as I had said this, they all leapt up, took their notes, and said, "Everything is clear now," and they went outside. They didn't punish anyone, they didn't find anyone guilty; I was left without my gate and that's it.
Q. Are you sure they didn't conduct an investigation?
A. Of course not. What do you think?
Q. Well, you're saying that some people looted houses.
A. Yes.
Q. Houses abandoned by Croats who had fled. You yourself gave the example of a man called Gogic who took an excavator, an electric saw. You mentioned a certain Kovacevic, who took a car. All these were local people; is this correct? 25575
A. They were all my neighbours.
Q. They were all your neighbours. So this was a local conflict, with looting and so on.
A. Mr. Milosevic, there was looting all over the place. They were all competing as to who would take more. And they took all these goods off to Vojvodina and sold them there, because we tried to find out what had happened to the things.
Q. Well, these were neighbours of yours, weren't they?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to establish. So you were questioned there and in the police station in Dalj; is this correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But you were never beaten.
A. I myself was never beaten, but the things I saw were terrible.
Q. How did it come about that you were not touched and others were beaten? Why?
A. I'll tell you why: I have a daughter-in-law who's a Serb and she intervened in every possible way. I'm grateful to her, because had it not been for her -- there were 13 of us in Dalj and all were found dead except me and Slavko Palinkas from Aljmas. I would have been one of the dead if she hadn't spoken up for me.
Q. So out of the 13 of you, 11 were later found dead?
A. Yes, in Celija, in the mass grave.
Q. When you're talking about the prison in Dalj, this prison was not run by the JNA but by the local inhabitants; isn't that so? 25576
A. They were not local. I didn't know any of them there, except for Stricevic, who was in charge of --
Q. Well, regardless of whether you knew them or not, it wasn't the JNA who ran the prison.
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. All right. Thank you very much. We can proceed.
A. Yes.
Q. You talk about being taken to the police station in Borovo, where you were insulted. Is it correct that you were visited by people from the Red Cross?
A. No.
Q. You were not visited by the Red Cross?
A. No, we weren't. It was only in Dalj, when we got there from Borovo -- when we arrived in Dalj, we found a girl there who was wearing a blue uniform and on her left side she had a red cross. I don't know who she was.
Q. As she was wearing a red cross insignia, she was a representative of the Red Cross?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Did you complain to this girl wearing the red cross sign? Did you complain about the conditions?
A. Yes, we did. When we arrived from Borovo, where we were lying down, then she came with those Chetniks of hers and she carried off the mattresses and the blankets. She carried them off somewhere, so we had to sleep on the concrete floor for a week. 25577 BLANK PAGE 25578
Q. Tell me, is it true that your son served in the JNA?
A. No, not in the JNA; in the Krajina army.
Q. He visited you in prison, brought you clean clothes, cigarettes, and so on?
A. Yes.
Q. He was a reservist, a local Croat wearing a JNA uniform.
A. I don't know whether it was the JNA. When he came to visit, he was wearing civilian clothes. Whether he was in the Krajina army or the JNA, I don't know.
Q. Very well. You go on to explain what the problems in prison were. Is it correct that the people running the prison had different uniforms than the JNA?
A. Yes. They had some sort of police uniforms, and some of them wore civilian clothes.
Q. In any case, they had nothing to do with the JNA, and yet you go on to explain how you were released and that it was in fact Goran Hadzic who came and released you.
A. Yes.
Q. How did he react when he heard that the others had been mistreated? He asked you whether you'd been beaten; you said no.
A. Yes, yes.
Q. I've made a note of that.
A. Yes. On that day, my son had come to visit me, and he brought me underwear. In a month, we had not been allowed to wash, to bathe, or change. So I sent a message to my son by a Serb to tell him that I was in 25579 prison in Dalj, and my son came and brought me clean underwear and a fresh suit of clothes and socks, and then I changed and I lay down and fell asleep. And through my sleep, I heard that something was going on. When I opened my eyes, I saw that everyone was standing. They had been lined up. And so I got up too, and I groped around for my glasses but I was so frightened I couldn't find them. And then I got up and stood in line. And Goran said, "Which of you is Luka Sutalo?" I said, "I am." And he said, "Get ready. You're going with me." I just stood there looking at him. He was to my left, and there were two or three other people there in civilian clothes, and I didn't say anything. He said, "Why are you staring at me? Collect your things. You're coming with me. I'm taking you home." Then Palinkas said, "Mr. President, let me go too. Release me too." And he said, "I am taking Sutalo home. But as for you, I don't have time to take you there." He said, "I have friends in Dalj. I'll spend the night with them." And he said, "All right." And so we went to the police station. The police station was some 4 metres away. It was right next door.
When we got there, Goran said, "Get Sutalo's card, get his file." The policeman said, "Sutalo has no file." And he said, "What are you saying?" And the policeman said, "There's no file for Sutalo." And then he swore and he said, "How can you hold a man here without a file?" And he said, "Mr. President, I don't know who it is who's keeping him here. It's not me." He said, "Is there any record?" And the man said, "There's a notebook." And Goran personally crossed out my first and last name in that notebook and he said, "Sutalo, we're going home now." And when we 25580 had come outside, I saw 30 or 40 Chetniks outside, and Arkan was with them. They were reporting to him, standing at attention. And he said, "Sit down, Sutalo," and I got into the car and he took me home. During the drive --
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sutalo, I'm afraid our time is limited, and therefore I must interrupt you. If there's anything which the accused wants to ask you about in your evidence, he can do so. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, your time is limited, of course. I think you've got another six minutes or so.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.
MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Just finish the story you started, please.
A. And as we were going along the road, he asked me, "Mr. Sutalo, did they beat you?" And I said, "No, they didn't beat me, but the rest of the things they're doing, God forbid." "What are they doing," he asks. And I tell him, "You've beaten up those healthy people so badly they're not good for anything any more." And he says, "Everybody beats everybody these days. For instance, when I was at Plitvice, I was beaten black and blue." And I said, "What did you do at Plitvice?" And he says, "Oh, you would like to know too much. I read in a brochure of some English philosopher -- in fact, I said that I read from some English philosopher that it's better to let go 100 guilty men, and he finished my sentence, "Than keep one innocent."
Q. Let me go back to this scene at the police station when somebody was wondering how come you are keeping these men without a file. 25581
A. Yes.
Q. And that policeman answered, "I'm not the one who's keeping him. I don't know who's keeping him." So it means it wasn't even the police force. It was a group that had nothing to do with the police.
A. I asked this Stricevic, the camp commander, to let me confront this person who is keeping me there. I want to know why I'm being kept here. And he said, "That can't be done and you are not allowed to know that." And I said, "All right, then. Thank you."
Q. Let us come back to this incident when a bomb was thrown -- when a grenade was thrown into your yard. Did your neighbours come to visit you and say they were sorry and express their solidarity, Serbs among them?
A. Well, some did; some didn't. The neighbour who lived right behind my house, Milorad Gogic, he just alit one morning wearing a military uniform. Another day he was wearing a police uniform. The third day, he was wearing a Chetnik uniform. Let me now ask you, who was he?
Q. The one thing he wasn't was JNA.
A. Well, I didn't have a uniform, for instance.
Q. People had all sorts of uniforms then. Everybody had one. But that man you saw, that neighbour, he wasn't certainly JNA. Now, tell me something different. You said they forced you to work. There was a question from your examination-in-chief, and you said you cleaned stables. Stables are usually kept by farmers. Does it mean that you went on somebody's farm to work?
A. Yes, or pick corn every day, without being fed or given a drink all day. You just have to work. 25582
Q. So whose corn was it?
A. It belongs to the Serbs in Erdut. Sometimes you are assigned to go up there to -- there was some sort of administration there who gave us assignments. They said, "You go there and there, and you go to this place," and they just tell you what you are supposed to do and they don't give you anything to eat or to drink. You have to work for free. And then there was this woman -- what's her name? Sucur, Grozda Sucur. She, for instance, went to work -- she went to see somebody in that administration and they asked her, "Why are you going there?" She said, "I want to have somebody pick my corn." And the people asked her, "Who do you mean?" And she said, "Well, these Croats who do all the work. Why not for me too?"
Q. Now, let me ask you something different. You were free and you were not harmed in Serbia. You were free to move around. But there was one thing that you said before. You signed over your property to the local commune in Dalj.
A. No, Erdut.
Q. I can't keep track of you witnesses, you change so quickly. Dalj, Erdut, it all got mixed up.
Now, one thing remains unclear still to me: Was it a precondition for you to sign over your property before they let you go to Serbia?
A. I believe it was a condition. That man, Bozidar Bolic, who was chief of police in Erdut - he used to be a police officer before that - he said, "We're not going to let you go until you sign a document leaving everything to the local commune." And I got a paper, sealed with the seal 25583 of the local community of Erdut. I signed that and then he signed my permit to leave.
Q. So it means that this was a man from Erdut, a local policeman, who later became chief of the police at the relevant time.
A. He wasn't originally from Erdut, but he worked in Erdut.
Q. Where he was from originally?
A. I don't know.
Q. It doesn't matter, but he lived and worked in Erdut.
A. Yes.
Q. And he is the man who said -- wouldn't let you go to Serbia until you sign over your property to the local commune.
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Sutalo. That's all.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This last question asked by Mr. Milosevic was the only thing I wanted the witness to clarify, because I believe this is a very experienced man who knows a lot about a lot of things.
You know, Your Honours, that a number of witnesses have already given evidence about having had to sign certain documents before they were allowed to leave a certain territory. Until now, I did not ask questions in this connection, but I believe this witness, Mr. Sutalo, is somebody who can explain this, because he was born in 1925 and he knows very well how these things happen and how property can be assigned from one person to another. 25584 And in connection with paragraph 58 of his earlier statement, I would like to ask the following: He said, "I asked for a permit to leave Erdut, which was eventually given me by Bozidar Bolic." And that's the man he just mentioned in response to a question by Mr. Milosevic. I go on to quote: "Before the permit was granted, I had to sign over my house and all my property to the village council."
Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sutalo, you know very well that according to the laws and regulations of the country in which you lived - at that moment, it was still Yugoslavia at the time - property can be assigned from one person to another or from one legal entity to another only on the basis of court certified documents. Is that true?
A. Please, if one Croat per night goes missing --
Q. This is not what I asked you.
A. Please let me say this. I can't put this any other way. What else would you do if you see the impending doom, if you see the disappearance of the Croatian people, if you see that there is no justice, no one to talk to, no one to ask for justice? And all you can do is save your neck at any cost? I would have signed over my own wife if only so that they should let me go.
Q. Please, I understand that much. But let us go back to this document. You know that this document could not have had any legal force. You know that only through a legal procedure and with court certification property can change hands. You do know that.
A. Yes, but my only concern was to escape, to run away from Erdut, to 25585 BLANK PAGE 25586 remain alive.
Q. I understand that much. But do you know of a single person who has signed this document causing a change in the land registry books, changing the ownership? Do you know of any such person?
A. I don't.
MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have only two short questions. Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
Q. Mr. Sutalo, Mr. Milosevic addressed with you the fact that you fled to Serbia on the 1st of August, when the attack actually started and the JNA moved in. Is -- and you said that you fled over the bridge. Was that the shortest way to get out of the zone of fighting, over the bridge to Serbia?
A. Yes. Because everything everywhere was blocked. I couldn't go to Osijek, because the Serbs had cut off all communication between Krajina and Croatia. In the direction of Vinkovci, Borovo Selo was also cut off. Every communication between one part of Croatia and another part of Croatia was completely cut off. The only exit was via Serbia.
Q. And in February 1992, when you again left and ran away, as you said, you went to Serbia. Did you stay in Serbia, or did you then continue through Bosnia to Zagreb?
A. I went via Novi Sad to Bosnia, and I crossed over at Raca. I spent the night in Tuzla, and the next day I crossed over into Croatia.
Q. Thank you.
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is all, Your Honours. 25587
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sutalo, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.
[The witness withdrew]
MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next witness, Mr. Josipovic, is here, and we have also distributed the packages in the break.
JUDGE MAY: Very well. I don't know if we've got them. We'll call the witness, anyway.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: JOSIP JOSIPOVIC
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat. Examined by Ms. Bauer:
Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you please state your name for the record.
A. Josip Josipovic.
Q. Mr. Josipovic, do you recall that in the years of 2000 and 2002 you gave two statements to a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor?
A. Yes.
Q. About two months ago, did you go over these two statements in the presence of a representative of the court and sign a declaration 25588 confirming its accuracy and truthfulness?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. BAUER: Your Honours, at this point I would ask that the statement is moved into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis. It's actually two statements.
JUDGE MAY: Yes. The package can have a generic number.
THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be Exhibit 521.
MS. BAUER: At the time of the events in 1991, Mr. Josipovic was 24 years old. He lived in Hrvatska Dubica in the village of Predore-Cerovljanin.
This village, Your Honours, you'll find in the Croatian atlas, page 21, D-3.
He worked there as a switchman, a profession he still occupies today. Before the war, Hrvatska Dubica was a town with a mixed population but a slight Croatian majority. Mr. Josipovic described in his first statement the establishment of military formations on both sides in 1991. There was the Croatian National Defence Force, or ZNG, and the Territorial Defence on the Serb side. He explained that the Croats had left the TO after the multi-party elections. The TO headquarters was in Zivaja and the ZNG headquarters in Hrvatska Dubica.
Mr. Josipovic participated for one month, in the month of July to August 1991, in the ZNG. He estimated that the total strength of the ZNG force in all the Croat villages, taken together, which would be Cerovljanin, Bacin, and Dubica, were not more than 150 to 200 people. Mr. Josipovic observed as of June 1991 an increased number of JNA helicopters 25589 landing in the nearby villages of Zivaja and Sas, which were Serb-controlled villages, delivering ammunition and weapons. Armed clashes occurred during that time involving both sides, however, the ZNG soon realised they could not keep the territory under control and withdrew in early September 1991
As the JNA assisted the local Serb Territorial Defence, the balance shifted in favour of the Territorial Defence. The SAO Krajina police established a police station in Hrvatska Dubica after the Serbs had occupied the territory in about mid-September without too much resistance. Shortly before his capture in mid-September, Mr. Josipovic observed a number of new JNA persons unknown to him who came to the area of Predore-Cerovljanin under the pretext to resettle Serbs who had left the area during the earlier Croat attacks. In reality, local Serbs would sometimes leave to Bosnia for one night but would come back in the early morning hours.
In general, Serbs travelled freely between Bosnia and Croatia. Mr. Josipovic had the impression that the JNA assisted the local Territorial Defence and Martic's men in the takeover but then handed the administration over to the local Serbs. He, however, also stressed that the JNA did not participate in the looting and burning of houses. Mr. Josipovic found it difficult to differentiate between Martic's police and the Territorial Defence forces. For Mr. Josipovic, there appeared to be the same. Serbs in the wore were in general olive-green JNA or camouflage uniforms. Those who wore camouflage uniforms had SAO Krajina patches on with a crown and a cross and four Cyrillic S's in the 25590 middle. Some of these soldiers were locals; others came from Serbia or Bosnia and Herzegovina.
A person called Momcilo Kovacevic was the head of all the Serb forces in the area. Veljo Radunovic was his deputy and was involved with Martic's police. A Serb friend of Mr. Josipovic told him that Radunovic, together with Kovacevic would go to Knin to get instructions from Milan Martic. He also said that it was common knowledge in the area that Milan Martic would be in contact with the local Serb military leadership. Later during his detention, which was in November 1991, Mr. Josipovic learned from two policemen who were imprisoned at the same location that there were some differences developing between Mr. Milan Martic and Kovacevic and Radunovic. Eventually Kovacevic and Radunovic was removed from power. He further heard that the JNA around that time, which means in November 1991, became more proactively involved in the administration of the territory because the army learned of the excesses committed by the local forces.
The witness identified during the 92 bis procedure some of the patches he saw worn by Serb soldiers in the area. Some of them have been already tendered as exhibits, and I list the exhibit numbers. That would be 349, tab 12, the Grey Wolves patch; exhibit 349, tab 11, the SAO Krajina patch. There were two new patches, which would have to be assigned new exhibit numbers because in order that they might be part of the patches book.
JUDGE KWON: Ms. Bauer, aren't they tab 22 and 21?
MS. BAUER: Exactly, we have pre-marked them as tab 21 and 22. 25591 They have, however, not yet been tendered, Your Honours.
JUDGE KWON: And I'd like you to produce the updated list for those patches, the collection of patches and also for the map, Bosnia and Croatia maps. The number is 343 and 326, I guess.
MS. BAUER: Yes. The number is -- I thought it's 349 of the patch book.
JUDGE KWON: Yes, 349 for the patch, and 326, 343 for maps.
MS. BAUER: Thank you, Your Honours.
JUDGE MAY: So the exhibits can have those numbers which are on the form. Tab -- Exhibit 349, tabs 21 and 22.
MS. BAUER: On 15 September 1991, about 50 local Serb soldiers from nearby villages surrounded the village of Predore where the witness had returned. Serbs searched the houses and arrested all male persons, although at that time they wore civilian clothes and did not carry any weapons. The Serbs carried automatic weapons and forced the arrested men to go in front of them in the direction of the river. They used them as human shields to explore Croatian positions.
The old man that were initially arrested were allowed to stay in the village. Eight of the others, among them the witness, were brought to the Serb headquarters in Hrvatska Dubica, which was located in the old school building. Five of the detainees, including Mr. Josipovic, were locked in a tiny toilet. There they were beaten by local Serbs, including Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic, three to four times a day. Because of the beatings, the witness lost his consciousness several times. One day, five or six Serbs came and picked up one of the 25592 BLANK PAGE 25593 detainees, a Muslim, and led him outside. He heard him screaming and shouting not to kill him. Afterwards, the witness heard immediately shots and this Muslim detainee was never seen again.
On one occasion, the detainees were forced to run in circles of -- in front of Serbs for more than two hours singing Chetnik songs and at the same time Serbs beat them repeatedly. They even shot at them without looking if they hit the detainee or not. Because of the beatings, the witness at the end lost again his consciousness when he was hit with a metal bar. While lying on the floor, soldiers would pour water over these prisoners and then marched on top of them. When the witness finally regained his consciousness in the cell, he and another detainee were ordered to carry two dead bodies of two killed persons, Antun Knezevic and Zeljko Abaz on a trailer. However, they were so weak that they couldn't do it and were again beaten for that. Then they were ordered to climb on the trailer and even that was too much. They had to lay on the top of the bodies and saw that the killed people had their throats slit. The trailer was driven over the bridge on the River Una. The detainees were ordered to throw the bodies into the river. But they were too frail to do that. Mr. Josipovic saw how two local Serbs threw the bodies into the river. Around Christmas 1991, the JNA military police, who together with the JNA and not the local Serbs ran at the time the area, transported the witness to Prijedor and transferred him to a detention facility in Banja Luka. He was not mistreated at any of these two locations. In 1992, he was exchanged. The witness lists several names of persons who went missing from his village Cerovljanin and Predore. Most 25594 of these people were elderly and did not leave the village, as they did not believe in any threats against their lives.
The witness was present at the exhumation of a mass grave in 1997 in Krecane. Many bodies of persons who went missing from Cerovljanin and Predore were identified, but some are missing today. Thank you.
JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination at the next hearing. Mr. Josipovic, we have to adjourn now, which means that the rest of your evidence will be -- have to be heard tomorrow. We have to hear the evidence for another witness first, but we should be able to get through your evidence, I trust, tomorrow. So if you'd be back then when you're told. Could you please remember this during the adjournment: Not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.
We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
the 29th day of August, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.