⁴⁵⁷³³

Wednesday, 26 October 2005

[Open session]

[The accused entered court]

[The witness entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you may continue.

WITNESS: MILOS DJOSAN [Resumed]

[Witness answered through interpreter] Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Q. [Interpretation] General, I asked you yesterday about an event that you raised in cross-examination in Suva Reka when you were explaining why you believe you had no trust in investigators. What actually happened?

A. We received a report --

Q. What do you mean by "we"?

A. I was head of the commission for the application of the Military Technical Agreement. It was a commission that was an official body of the KFOR, and I was heading our side of that commission. My opposite number in KFOR was Major Bruno Nevaj [phoen].

At one meeting we asked why in Suva Reka a mass grave had been opened at the request of The Hague Tribunal, and when the body of Milivoje Ristanovic, a Serb, was found in that mass grave, the mass grave was closed down and the whole case was closed. Following orders of General Nevaj, Sergeant Guido [phoen] answered our question. He was heading or, rather, representing the police force on the commission. He said that he ⁴⁵⁷³⁴ couldn't see anything strange about it and wanted to know why we are interested in the issue. He said that all these mass graves are in fact cemeteries and he's confused by our question. He promised to give some more explanation but it never happened.

Q. Very well, General. According to the agreement between Ahtisaari-Chernomyrdin Agreement and the Resolution 1244, was it envisaged for the KLA to be demilitarised and disarmed?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it happen?

A. No, it didn't happen. The KLA just changed its name.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... cross-examination best identified first. It looks like a new topic but it may be not.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, I missed your point, Mr. Nice.

MR. NICE: I'm not sure what this relates to in cross-examination. It may do, but we need to have the topic identified for clarity, otherwise we're just going into something new.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the area of the cross-examination from which this arises?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Regarding the part where Mr. Nice asked the witness why he doubted the objectivity and proper conduct of KFOR members and UNMIK members in Kosovo and Metohija.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, is it the task of the protection force --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you must wait until I have ruled. What is your line of questioning now in relation to Resolution 1244? ⁴⁵⁷³⁵

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, Mr. Nice asked the witness why he doubted the objectivity of KFOR and UNMIK in Kosovo, and I'm asking him now if, according to Resolution 1244, KFOR and UNMIK had the task of protecting the entire population in Kosovo. Was it their task?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You have not been asked a question. I have not yet ruled on it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Ask the question.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So did they have the task of protecting the entire population of Kosovo?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they protect them?

A. No, they did not. Many killings and expulsions have shown that, and the 17th of March was the best evidence how they are performing their task.

Q. Mr. Nice showed you "As Seen, As Told." Reading that book, were you able to conclude that what is written there has been seen by the authors?

A. No. I never read anything like such-and-such a person saw this. I think it was just a conveniently selected title to produce an effect.

Q. Mr. Nice showed you a footnote concerning an event involving ⁴⁵⁷³⁶ alleged crimes, and the footnote listed about 15 witnesses. Do you think it can be taken as authentic --

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not for the witness to comment --

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. -- and do you believe that --

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not for the witness to comment on. We'll make our minds up about those matters.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. At one point Mr. Nice asked you on the basis of what you gained your insight, and he mentioned the book, the book I just referred to. My question is very specific: Did you gain your insight into the situation in Kosovo based on books or based on personal experience and firsthand knowledge and information?

A. In Kosovo and Metohija, and primarily in Djakovica, I was present most of the time. Besides, I had my command in Djakovica. There were commanding officers who had lived in Djakovica even before my arrival and before the beginning of the aggression. There were two of my battalions in Djakovica, so I had direct knowledge about the events that was not gained on the basis of books or brochures.

Q. General, you mentioned the 24th of March. You said that on that day you were on Cabrat hill, overlooking Djakovica when the bombing began.

A. Yes.

Q. And you said that something was burning in Djakovica. Why was it burning? ⁴⁵⁷³⁷

A. From the bombs.

Q. You mentioned the church of St. Anthony that was on fire. You said it was in the direct vicinity of the barracks. How did it come about? Why was it burning?

A. The church wasn't burning. It's a Catholic church that is right next to the barracks. It wasn't burning, and it wasn't damaged until the 11th of June when we left Djakovica. For a while, part of our medical capacities were put up in that church, and we had a very good relationship with the priests of that church.

Q. You mean to say it was not damaged during the war at all, it was damaged after our forces left?

A. When I was leaving Djakovica on the 11th of June, the church was not damaged. I know that for certain. I know that very well.

Q. What was destroyed and what was burning on the 24th of March?

A. The Catholic Street was on fire. It's a street directly under Cabrat hill. It's almost part of Cabrat. It's a neighbourhood called Cabrat. It's an old street, lined mainly with wooden houses, very old houses dating back to the Turkish time. It is a very beautiful street but it was on fire that night.

Q. Why was it burning?

A. Because of NATO bombs.

Q. Mr. Nice insisted on paramilitary units. Did you have occasion to learn about any paramilitary unit in Djakovica?

A. There were no paramilitary units in Djakovica, if we don't count the members of the terrorist organisation KLA. ⁴⁵⁷³⁸

Q. Mr. Nice said several times that your evidence has to be shrunk exclusively to events concerning your unit. Did you hear that?

A. Yes.

Q. Since you were commander of the garrison, did you have insight into the situation in Djakovica as a whole?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you aware of everything taking place in Djakovica?

A. I knew about every major event in Djakovica.

MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... leading question, especially when the witness has by and large retracted most things he said when he himself said he knew everything about something. I don't know where this re-examination is going.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate the question, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, have you withdrawn any of what you said?

A. No.

Q. When I asked you about events in Djakovica and I questioned you after you explained you were garrison commander in Djakovica, and Mr. Bonomy also questioned you about that, should you know of an incident if it had happened as described in the materials of Mr. Nice?

A. I answered if an event had happened, I would have known about it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that's not a proper question. It may be a technical matter that you're unable to formulate the questions properly.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁴⁵⁷³⁹

Q. Mr. Djosan, I was questioning you point by point, paragraph by paragraph, about all events that happened in Djakovica.

A. That's correct.

Q. Was it possible for some of these things to happen, like Qerim? You explained you were in Ljug Bunar, 500 metres away, and a number of other events. So would you have known about those incidents if they had happened?

A. If they had happened, I would have known about them because I had briefings and reports, and I said then that part of my unit was in Djakovica. I had my commanding officers in Djakovica, Nik Peraj was in Djakovica all that time, and if such a major event as the one alleged had indeed happened, I would have had to have found out about it.

Q. Just a couple of more questions regarding your war diary. Mr. Nice said that the format differs from day-to-day. Are all the pages the same in terms of format?

A. Do you mean in terms of size?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, their size is the same. All the pages are the same, but the writing is different.

Q. Every page has a number. Are they all paginated in the same handwriting?

A. Yes.

Q. What is then the difference between pages where entries are made horizontally or vertically?

A. It depended on the style of the person who happened to be in ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁰ command at the time and who made entries.

Q. Did one or more persons make entries in the diary?

A. Several people.

Q. Who usually keeps that diary?

A. One of the operatives in the operations department or one of my deputies or assistants.

Q. Was it always the case with your diary?

A. Yes, but it was not always the same person.

Q. Thank you. On page 7, a question of volunteers was mentioned. Do you have this diary in front of you?

A. No.

Q. Well, I can't give you my copy because I have only one before me.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But since the witness doesn't have a copy, Mr. Robinson, can we save time if I read from that page in order to ask the witness a question?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

JUDGE KWON: What's the date and time?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date is the 2nd of April, 1999. It is a Friday. It says the tenth day of the war. The page is page number 7.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please read out what it says in the middle of the page, roughly. It says 1700 hours. What does it say after that, in the line beginning with 1700? ⁴⁵⁷⁴¹

A. It says at 1700 hours a group of 80 volunteers arrived in the barracks of Metohija and they were deployed among the units.

Q. That will suffice. Thank you. So that is the only sentence which refers to volunteers; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So when the volunteers arrived, were they organised into a united formation, unit, or was the procedure different?

A. The volunteers were always brought in by an officer from the personnel department of the corps command, and he brought them in with all their documents, their IDs, their military booklets, and everything that accompanies those.

Now, on the basis of that and their age and principally where they had done their military service and what their speciality was, military speciality was, we would distribute them amongst the units. And so if somebody had done their military service, for example, as a signalsman, he would go to the signals company. If he had manned a P cannon, PA cannon, then he would go to a company where cannons were used. So there were volunteer -- some volunteers who did not have any of these special training courses but were educated people and were able to work at the headquarters, the staff, and be in charge of documentation, for example, administrative work, and so on and so forth. There were those who were infantrymen, and they were assigned to the infantry units, for example, to provide security.

For the most part that is how we assigned individuals to different jobs and posts, but they were never in the same unit, all in the same ^{45742 BLANK PAGE 45743} unit, and there was not just one single unit, and he was never -- these units were never commanded by the people who came with them.

Q. So they were distributed amongst the different units, just like any other military recruit and conscript; is that right?

A. Yes. And they were in fact military conscripts but those who were not on our lists and weren't called up in a mobilisation call.

Q. Mr. Nice showed that the 26th of April was lacking, was missing in the diary, and then Mr. Kwon said that the 26th of April does exist in the typed-out text. So would you now take a look at that date, the 26th of April. It is page 4 from -- the fourth page from the back of the copy of the diary. It's in the diary that you have before you.

A. But I can't find that page.

Q. It's towards the end.

A. What date did you say?

Q. The 26th of April. That is the day before the 27th, because Mr. Nice found it strange that that date, the 26th, was missing.

A. I don't have it here.

Q. Before. It's one page before the 29th.

MR. NICE: Well, obviously if it's the original and since the accused has drawn to our attention that the page numbering at the top right-hand corner is in hand, it should be page number 32. Page number 32 I don't have.

JUDGE KWON: It's only in the typed-out version.

MR. NICE: If it's in the typed-out version, the story becomes even more odd, because the accused has represented to us through the Court ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁴ and directly to Ms. Dicklich via one of the accused's associates that we were to be provided with and thus have been provided with everything of the original documentation that was provided to the accused. So if there's a typed-out version of this day, the 26th of April, and I'd overlooked it, it's evidence that there is more of the original document that the accused has than he's provided us, and I'd like to see it, please.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't wish to be sidetracked by this issue but, Mr. Milosevic, can you comment on that briefly?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in the briefest possible terms and the clearest comment I can give you is to say that during the course of the day you will be provided with the entire diary. Mr. Tomanovic has informed me that the entire diary will be available in the course of today.

Now, this printed page, this typed-out page is the typed-out page of the handwritten page from that missing page that Mr. Nice is missing. But once you receive the diary in its entirety, you will all be able to look through it from first to last page in the original or, rather, photocopy of the original which was in the archives.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I think the sooner we get the entire diary, the better for the proceedings.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice. Microphone, please.

MR. NICE: [Microphone not activated] -- of the accused's exhibits for this witness. And if Your Honours' papers are in the same format as ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁵ mine, there were three -- there were originally some three parts to it; the first two, separately stapled, were in English, and if you go to the second of those two parts, if it's the same as in my papers, the second of those two parts and to the second page, you'll find an entry for the 26th of April. But it, of course, remains extremely unsatisfactory if the accused has had all the time had either all of the diary, as may be found, if he's able to produce it today, or even these relevant dates in the originals, that they weren't made available before cross-examination. And this is not, in my respectful submission, sidetrack, it's a very important issue. The production of documents like this which have simply never been available to us.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you're coming very close to imputing ill motives to the accused without any proper foundation, and I cannot sanction that.

MR. NICE: I beg Your Honour's pardon, but I'm not doing any such thing. What I'm doing is drawing to the Court's attention, in the course of a forensic process that needs to be rigorous, first of all the extraordinary fact that documentation like this which we've sought - not these particular ones, the generality - time and time again first comes to our attention in the circumstances it does; and secondly, that the two critical dates for this witness were not made available to us until I requested them; and thirdly - and this is the point to which I was going to refer and that Your Honour will no doubt want to have in mind - there is now clearly a document, the Reka plan, which is of extreme importance, possibly, to one of the most serious and notorious events that happened in ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁶ this region at the time, and it's a document we've got to get our hands on, if it exists, and before there's any question of its not being provided, whoever holds it, in its best form.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we'll have to consider what to do when the diary becomes available later today by the time the -- this witness's testimony may have concluded.

MR. KAY: Sorry, Your Honour.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. KAY: Disclosure issues between the Prosecution and the government of Serbia and Montenegro are nothing to do with this accused and Mr. Nice continually makes his complaint as though it's against the accused, but it is not an issue with which he is concerned, and that must be borne in mind. This is not a matter under his control, and therefore to make continually points against the accused on this matter is indeed unfair.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I've already said enough on that issue and I don't wish to have it commented further.

MR. NICE: Very well, I'll come back to it later today --

JUDGE ROBINSON: But I'm going to consult about the implications of the diary becoming available later.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just to draw your attention to one thing, Mr. Robinson. I received just those pages which you received yourselves. The previous selection was made by my associate with the ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁷ witness, and some pages were provided by way of example. Now, since Mr. Nice insisted that the diary be produced in its entirety, as you can see it has been produced and you will be able to see whether anything -- any attempts were made to conceal something or not. And I can tell you that I didn't have any other of the pages than you did. And if I were to read the whole diary from start to finish, I don't know when I could be expected to have the time to do that.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Milosevic, is that we're getting it very late in the testimony of this witness, but we'll see what happens when we get it and then make a decision as to what course to take, if any.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Just let's clarify this point. You have in front you page 33 on which we find the 27th of April, which is the critical day, and yesterday you quoted what it said there.

A. I don't have the 27th of April here.

Q. It's page 33. You have the same copy of the diary that I do.

A. In my copy the pages are not numbered. I read it from the overhead projector yesterday. It was placed on the overhead projector, and I read from that. I haven't got it here before me now. Let me have a better look.

Q. Very well. In order to save time --

JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness should have the handwritten pages.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the 27th, but it's ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁸ handwritten.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. That's right, handwritten.

A. Yes, this is from my diary, handwritten.

Q. It says there -- or, rather, what does it say? It starts -- something started. Read out that first line, please. The 27th.

A. From the beginning of the page, you mean?

Q. From the beginning of the page. Well, not really from the beginning because there's mention of the bombing first.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak slowly, read slowly.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djosan, you're -- just a second. Just a minute. The interpreter is asking you to read more slowly.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Operations are being conducted by the air force in the Devet Jugovica barracks," and then it says: "At 0600 hours an operation started to clean the Siptar terrorist forces 'Reka.'"

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You needn't go on to explain who participates in it because that's what you do after that.

So what kind of operation is that recorded there? What does that entry mean?

A. It was an action against the Siptar terrorist forces in the region called Reka.

Q. Does this give any possibility for broader interpretations? If we say Siptar terrorist forces, that it can relate to anybody else except to ⁴⁵⁷⁴⁹ terrorists?

A. No. Exclusively to terrorists.

Q. Thank you, General. Mr. Nice asked you a question related to a stenogram of the Supreme Defence Council of 1995, and I used, when I intervened once, the proverb "Fear keeps the house safe." Do you know of that proverb?

A. Yes. It's quite a customary, traditional proverb.

Q. So what barracks were empty when the army arrived?

A. Yes, the barracks were empty.

Q. And how old was the barracks?

A. I started to say yesterday that the barracks dated back to 1932. The army had been there since 1932.

Q. So this proverb "Fear keeps the house safe," who was it who should have felt fear?

A. The terrorists, of course.

Q. Does that have anything to do with the citizens?

A. No. Why should they fear anything? Why should an honest man be frightened of the army or of the police, because the barracks had been there for a long time.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Mr. Robinson. That completes my re-examination. As you can see, I kept it short.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Nice, we are considering whether, in the event that you might have questions to raise once you see the diary, we should ask the witness ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁰ to remain.

MR. NICE: I would invite you to do that, in case. And I'd invite the Court also to seek clarification from the accused of what he's explained to us. The provision of documents is, as Mr. Kay says -- he's not, I'm afraid, reflecting the reality. Provision of documents is an extremely important matter. As against the authorities, we've made it quite clear that we believe we are being obstructed and have been consistently obstructed. We have laid out before you in various ways the difficulties we have in obtaining documents and, from time to time, have suggested that there may be different standards applied to us than those applied to the accused. That may not be the accused's fault, I'm just saying that.

Now, as to what he said this morning, and he said that we've had in handwritten form all that he's had, that obviously can't be right because without the provision of the handwritten version for the 26th of April, it wouldn't be possible for the 26th of April to have been transcribed and translated into English. So clearly there has been more in the possession of the accused than we've seen with this witness. If the -- the second point is that if this -- if the accused is going to be able today to provide the whole version of the diary in its original format, we'll be interested indeed in reviewing it, then either A, someone on the accused's side has had it for a long time, or B, and this is even more interesting from the Court's point of view, there is a process whereby such documentation can be found overnight. And that is of extreme value to know, because if that really is the case, then there may ⁴⁵⁷⁵¹ be more documents --

JUDGE BONOMY: Let's wait until it happens. This debating speculatively about what might emerge is pointless. That's number one. And number two is it does appear to me Mr. Kay is quite right, that applications for documents made by the Prosecution are ex parte of the accused and therefore he isn't involved in that process. It's important to distinguish that situation from the provision by the accused of material that he does get in an entirely unsatisfactory way, in dribs and drabs, as has apparently been the case with this diary. So we mustn't confuse the two situation. You may be perfectly justified in your criticism, but it's important to get the right basis for that criticism.

MR. NICE: I agree with the distinction and I actually hope to keep it in mind at all times. Those the points I want to make, but immediate point is would the Chamber think it helpful to know how it is, if and when we get the original, the diary in full, how it is that it's become available not least because if it appears that there is a way of getting material in 24 hours, then we needn't -- then we should act on that basis in the future because it would be of great value to all of us.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What I'm interested to discover, speaking for myself, Mr. Milosevic, is how soon will the diary be available today?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's supposed to arrive from Belgrade, and I gave you the notification that I received from Mr. Tomanovic yesterday, namely that last week when this issue was raised, he immediately submitted a formal request, marked "urgent" since testimony was under way, to get original diary from the archives in its entirety, ^{45752 BLANK PAGE 45753} and he told me earlier today that it should be arriving later today, and I suppose it's supposed to be brought by somebody who is arriving today. As soon as it's here, you will get it.

Second, as to what Mr. Nice said, that I had a typed-out page and that that is proof that I had had a manuscript page, that would have been true only if I were the person who types things out, which is not the case. I get typed-out pages just as you do.

There is no intent to withhold portions of the diary behind it.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: General Djosan, that concludes your testimony, but in view of the developments, we are asking you to remain today and to make yourself available for tomorrow morning in the event that it might be necessary to ask you further questions arising from the examination of the diary which will be received later today. So you may now leave.

[The witness withdrew]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the next witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before I call my next witness, I should like to raise an administrative issue and to provide you with a piece of information. May I do this?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It won't take more than two minutes. You informed me, Mr. Robinson, that I have received a confidential Prosecution witness list, something the Registry provided by day of testimony during the Prosecution case. That's what the Registry provided. ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁴ And this practically consists of two documents. One relates to the Kosovo stage, which began on the 12th of February, 2000, and the other one relates to Croatia and Bosnia stage that began on the 26th of September, 2002. I suppose you received the same documents. At least, I hope so. From these documents, one can see that, by dates contained therein, there is a total of 279 days of the Prosecution case. I suppose the difference to the total --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm not hearing that now. I'm not hearing any submissions on that issue now. Call your next witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Robinson, I will be done in 30 seconds.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It's out of order. It's out of order, entirely out of order. Had I known that was the purpose of the request for you to intervene on an administrative matter, I would not have allowed it. I'm not hearing it. Call the next witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can you tell me when you will be hearing this?

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Any submission you have on that issue should be put in writing. Call the next witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here, I'm going to call the next witness. I just want to say that the hours are missing amounting to at least 70 days.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I cut you off, Mr. Milosevic, because that's a flagrant abuse of the ruling that I made. ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁵ Call your next witness if you have one.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My next witness is Colonel Vukovic.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth -- excuse me. I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

WITNESS: VLATKO VUKOVIC

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you may commence.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but the volume is very low in my headphones. It's all right now.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You may commence, Mr. Milosevic. Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would appreciate it if the map of Kosovo could be put up behind the witness so that he can show us his area of responsibility to begin with. We will start, in the meantime, while it's being done, to save time.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, would you please introduce yourself.

A. My name is Vlatko Vukovic. I was born on the 15th of August, 1960, in Mramor village. It's a very small village in the municipality of Kovin in the autonomous province of Vojvodina in Serbia. I was born to a family of workers. My father's name is Momir; mother's name Stana. ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁶

Q. Could you please describe your career briefly.

A. Military academy of the ground forces, which I completed in 1983. My first place of service was the garrison of Pirot, in which I occupied initial duties, as an officer, of course.

In 1988, I was transferred to the academy of ground forces of Yugoslavia, where I acted as a commander and lecturer. In 1998, I was transferred to the Djakovica garrison. I had certain duties in Medvedja, Leskovac garrisons also, then in Belgrade as well, and in 2002 I was retired.

Q. Could you tell us where you served during the war in Kosovo, and could you show us your area of responsibility.

A. During the war in Kosovo and Metohija, I was commander of the 2nd Motorised Battalion of the 549th Motorised Brigade. I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time with this because I have a problem with my legs.

The battalion that I commanded was south of Djakovica. I can tell you precisely if you need to know the borders, the boundaries of the area of responsibility of my battalion. It was Belaja river on the west; Cafavanas [phoen] pass on the south, the state border from Cafavanas pass to the Mount Pastrik; on the east from Pastrik mountain to Beli Drim river; and on the north, Beli Drim River --

THE INTERPRETER: And another river that the interpreter did not catch the name of.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, if I understood you correctly, before the war you ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁷ were in perfectly good health?

A. I was in perfectly good health, Mr. Milosevic, and I was even a good athlete. I loved sports and was very active because my service allowed me to.

Q. Now you have serious health problems; walking, speech.

A. Well, that's perfectly obvious and I take this opportunity to apologise to the Trial Chamber and the interpreters as well, because sometimes I swallow an entire word or a syllable. My condition first occurred during the war, in 1999. Unfortunately, our doctors do not deal with causes. They only deal with consequences, and they only treat consequences and symptoms. I must say that after full six years, they haven't been able to give a precise diagnosis, but it may be the use of all sorts of weapons and materiel during the NATO bombing of my country. And generally speaking, this area south of Djakovica is marked on all maps as the area with the densest number of various projectiles that fell, projectiles carrying depleted uranium and other material that cause evaporations --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, I didn't understand. Did you say that -- did you say that the illness which you have, your medical condition, was in some way associated with weapons and materiel during the NATO bombing?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can say that safely, because I know that before the bombing I was in perfectly good health and fully able, whereas on the 14th or the 15th of June that year, after just three months, I was a serious invalid. I weighed 54 kilos, and I had trouble, serious trouble, walking and talking. I am now much better than I was at ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁸ that time. So I do link it exclusively to the use of NATO weapons and materiel in the aggression against my country.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It's your speech and your gait that are affected?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, my speech and my gait. That is the most noticeable part. However, there are many other things. I have poor coordination and I'm not very stable on my feet. I have trouble swallowing. I don't want to go into all the details now, but, yes, speech and gait are the two most adverse consequences and most noticeable.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In what sports were you involved prior to your illness?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All kinds of sports that you would expect an army officer to engage in. I was also a ski instructor, a swimming instructor, and all the other sports; athletics, sports with balls, et cetera, ball games and so on.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, we're now going to go on to specific places within your area of responsibility, and let's start with the municipality of Orahovac. We introduced an exhibit here that General Delic testified about. It was the order for the support of MUP to destroy Siptar terrorist forces in the area of Orahovac, Suva Reka, Velika Krusa, and that was compiled on the 23rd of March, 1999.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you have that document in your list. It is tab 356, used on the 30th of June this year, and it was admitted into evidence on the 1st of July. So it is an exhibit. It ⁴⁵⁷⁵⁹ has been exhibited.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel, you have the document before you?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Tell us, please, did you act upon that order and what did this document mean to you?

A. This is an order. I've looked through it. It is an order by the corps commander for support and reinforcement to MUP forces to destroy the Siptar terrorist forces in the area of Orahovac, Suva Reka, and Velika Krusa, as it says. Of course, pursuant to this order and generally speaking, the law provided for the fact that each unit and each individual must act within the spirit of the order given by their superior command. That means that I acted and my unit acted in this operation exclusively pursuant to the order received from my superior command. And I can briefly comment this order if need be. You tell me if I need to do so.

Q. No. We're not going to comment on that order now because it is very precise and was commented on by General Delic in his testimony. And during that testimony, it was admitted into evidence, so it is entitled "Order for the destruction of the Siptar terrorist forces in the area of Retimlje and the block Suva Reka and Orahovac and control of the territory," and that was brought in by General Delic himself, and that is to be found under number 3, and it is D300, tab 357, and it was admitted into evidence, as I said, on the 1st of July, Mr. Robinson. Now, what does this document mean? Did you act upon it?

A. Mr. Milosevic, this was the basic document and starting document ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁰ on the basis of which, among other things, I was able to view the role and place of my own unit in this anti-terrorist operation. Of course, I was able to see the place and role of the neighbours and everything that a command would do once it receives an assignment and orders. So on the basis of this order, I was able to assess and size up the overall situation and make the decision to engage part of my unit in the operation.

If you take a look at point 5, point 5 on page 3, for example, it says there Combat Group 2, 549th Motorised Brigade, and then it lists the composition of the forces engaged. That means in that operation I engaged 186 men and materiel and technical equipment. And then it says the assignment is to launch an energetic search of the village Kosa Brod, trig 342 and trig 440, and together with the forces in the blockade, to destroy the Siptar forces in Celine, Nogavac, to cut off the area of Velika Krusa, and part of the forces should be directed towards Amovac, and if the need arises, to have wing action use the flank forces in order to take control of the village of Brestovac and the village of Mala Hoca. To reinforce the platoon 122 millimetres, the command post at trig 440. That means that on the basis of an assignment of this kind that we received and the overall order, the order of -- in its entirety which came to us from the brigade command, I decided to proceed in a manner which I will describe to you later on, and to engage my forces. I should also like to draw your attention, with the Court's permission, to focus on a few other points which are a component part of every combat document and combat order -- ⁴⁵⁷⁶¹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- order for combat.

JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for Mr. Milosevic to put another question. We have had a sufficiently long narrative.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. You have explained to us what this document means and meant to you. It was a direct order which you acted upon; is that right? Is that what the explanation you gave?

A. Yes, that is right. That is a direct order upon which all the units acted, including my own. And my decision could not have been any different from what was specified in the assignment given to us from -- by the brigade command.

Q. Is there anything that relates to you especially that is characteristic in this order?

A. Well, not really. No characteristic traits. The rest of the document relates to all the units which are engaged. I can pinpoint certain sections if you wish me to do so and go into them.

Q. Well, there's no need to go into the details of it. The essence and crux of the matter is that you acted upon the order received. Now, on the map, if we look at the map, does that reflect the order? And the number is 358 there. It was an exhibit that was admitted into evidence on the 1st of July, as I said. It's a map. Tell us what the map represents. You have it before you.

A. Mr. Milosevic, that is the decision of the brigade commander for this particular operation. Of course, the decision coincides with the ^{45762 BLANK PAGE 45763} decision made in the order itself and expressed in the order itself. And in principle, following recommendations and instructions, we indicate the initial deployment of forces before the operation goes ahead and the plan of the operation itself as conceived. Of course, it includes the positions of the troops and the positions of the Siptar terrorist forces. And here you'll be able to notice the red and green lines which represents our forces.

What I'm pointing to now, that is the combat group, Combat Group 2, which I commanded. So from the crossroads here, from the village of Bela Crkva towards the Celine village via trig 340 and 440, and the other trigs 430 toward Buna Amovac. That was the line, the axis that I was assigned to establish a blockade, and it is from that line that we moved into operation, that is to say to search the terrain. That was our assignment, to search the terrain along that axis.

Q. Tell us now, please, how this operation evolved. You showed us on the map -- actually, you said that the map was contemporaneous with the operation and the order for the operation.

A. Yes. This is the original decision of the commander of the 549th Brigade, and we can see in the lower right-hand corner you have his signature there. And that is a map which was a component part of the order issued, the order we discussed a moment ago. If you want to ask me about the operation itself --

Q. I'd like to ask you now whether you proceeded according to the order given, and could you explain to us what your subordinates did, how they acted. ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁴

A. I explained a moment ago that I acted in full conformity with the order and assignment issued, the assignment and decision, and of course the assignments and tasks that are issued in the field depending on how the situation develops. It is normal and customary that I and my subordinates had to act within the spirit of the order that -- orders that I issued, and that is how every army and military organisation functions, as indeed any serious organisation; that there is one person in command and the others are there to execute that command and listen to orders.

Q. During the operation, were there any excessive situations which were not in conformity with the orders issued, either by your superiors or by you personally?

A. No. During this particular operation there were no situations of that kind, and I'd like to say that the operation did follow the ideas of the commander largely speaking, especially on the first day. We sized up the situation very well, we collected information about the deployment and strength of the terrorists, and throughout the operation the chain of command was adhered to. There was no lack of discipline which would jeopardise the fulfillment of the assignment.

Q. In the next document, which is D300 of tab 350, once again introduced into evidence on the 1st of July, we have an analysis compiled by General Delic. This analysis, which has to do with the destruction of Siptar forces in Retimlje and a blockade of the Suva Reka-Orahovac communication lines, as this has been set out here and described, does it correspond with your knowledge of the situation; and if not, where do the differences lie? ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁵

A. This corresponds fully, to my knowledge. Otherwise, an analysis of every assignment carried out, including the one we're discussing now, is done on the basis of a report by the subordinate commands, and one of those subordinate commands --

MR. NICE: I'm trying to track the documents. This may be tab 359.

JUDGE KWON: As you can see from the ELMO.

MR. NICE: Yes. There it is. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that's what I said, the D number.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Please go ahead, yes.

A. As I was saying, an analysis is the document which is compiled first and foremost on the basis of reports received from commanders of all the units participating. In this specific case, it is an anti-terrorist operation, and what the commander himself, the brigade commander himself, the knowledge he has gained. So that the analysis is a reflection of everything that the 549th Brigade units did over those four days in that particular area on that terrain. And I participated in compiling the analysis myself, so I'm able to say that with absolute assurance.

Q. Bela Crkva is in the Orahovac municipality. Now, your movements ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁶ in Bela Crkva - and let me say that Bela Crkva has been mentioned here. It is one of the places that are mentioned -- that have been mentioned here on many occasions, but Bela Crkva is in the Orahovac municipality. So your movements in Bela Crkva, were they part of the operation that you have described to us?

A. Yes, that's quite right. My unit was, on the 25th, for a brief time in Bela Crkva as well within the frameworks of an assignment, a Combat Group 2, and I can demonstrate this on the map if you like. I don't think it's necessary, though. But anyway, from the area of deployment in the Zur village, Djakovica and Zrze and Bela Crkva, those villages and that general area, there was a march which started at one hour after midnight, 1.00 a.m., through Bela Crkva. We had to pass through Bela Crkva in order to cut off the blockade lines. So that the operation in Bela Crkva, if that's what you're asking me, and the movements in Bela Crkva are a component part of the operation we are discussing.

Q. On the next piece -- exhibit, you have D30 and tab 360 is a map of Bela Crkva itself. It has already been exhibited. May it be placed on the overhead projector now, please. There you have it in front of you.

A. Mr. Milosevic, here you can see the deployment of my forces, that is to say Combat Group 2, at 0430 hours, roughly. We were in the Seros [phoen] region here, right up at the border in Zrze village, and that is where I received information from my security commander at the head that in the -- everything was quiet in the village of Bela Crkva. However, he had already passed through the village and set up security on the eastern ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁷ slopes of the Bela Crkva area. He informed me that in the village of Bela Crkva there was no movement whatsoever, that it was completely calm and that nobody was doing any shooting and that one police unit had already entered the western part of the village and that the unit can safely pass through up to the blockade line.

While passing through the village of Bela Crkva, Combat Group 2 marched through using motorised vehicles, we were in motorised vehicles. We did not get out of the vehicles, and we passed by in a column towards the blockade line, and a portion of our forces went towards Brnjaca and then joined up at the blockade line following their own axis. We can see that at 0600 hours Combat Group 2 had set up positions along the blockade line and was ready to carry out the assignment ordered.

Q. What you have just explained, is that contained in your report about what had happened, and who do you submit it to? So you passed through a peaceful Bela Crkva. You said you went through in a motorcade without stopping, there were no incidents, you set up a blockade line and went on.

A. Well, after taking up positions on the line of blockade, it was my duty to report to my superior officer. Military reports of that kind are very brief. I said that I performed a march, that I passed through Bela Crkva without fighting, that I emerged on the line of blockade and took up positions unhindered, that I am on my command post and that I am ready to perform my assignment. It's a brief report that you make through communications equipment.

Q. In March -- in January 2003, you made a statement to the ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁸ Commission for Cooperation that existed at the General Staff --

MR. NICE: Before we move on, the last question, which is clearly leading in form, probably does need exploration because it's suggesting that there's an existence of a report. I don't know whether I missed it in earlier answers, but it says: "What you have explained, is that contained in your report about what happened, and who do you submit it to?" I'm not sure whether we've covered that yet.

JUDGE ROBINSON: His answer is that was his duty to report to a superior officer.

MR. NICE: Well, as you know, there's a question of contemporaneity of documents or otherwise, and I'm simply not sure what's being suggested by the accused there, as it comes in leading format. It might pass into the record and be interpreted at a later stage as suggesting something that hasn't been explored.

JUDGE BONOMY: But the witness said the analysis -- well, that he personally participated in compiling the analysis, so I assumed he was referring to that report.

MR. NICE: If he's referring to that, then, that's fine. Well, if he's referring to that, I understand it better. Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the witness said that he submitted his report when he passed through and when he had taken up positions, to the brigade commander in the event, General Delic, saying that he had completed that part of the task. He said his report was brief and soldierly through communications equipment. That's what he said, his ⁴⁵⁷⁶⁹ words.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

JUDGE BONOMY: Where is -- if there is separate report, where is it?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I don't know if you noted what the witness said. He said he made the report briefly in a soldierly way, through communications equipment, to his brigade commander. So it was an oral report, as is commonly done in such situations. He's maybe communicating a couple of words.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, in January 2003, you wrote a statement to the commission about your knowledge of alleged crimes in Bela Crkva village.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has been exhibited here during the testimony of General Delic, but I was unable to establish precisely in what way. The statement was used here, but I don't think you actually admitted it into evidence because it was not a statement of General Delic, it was the statement of this witness.

Now that this witness is here -- it's D300, tab 362. It's something that you have already dealt with, you've had occasion to consider.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let it be placed on the ELMO. It has been marked for identification. ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁰

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I know it was marked for identification, but I would like to tender it now. It says here, "Translation provided 1st of July."

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is this your statement, Colonel?

A. Yes. This is a statement that I gave to the Commission for Cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, or more precisely, to the expert team of that commission.

Q. What is the contents of this statement, as briefly as you can.

A. Well, in the heading -- in the beginning I write which duties I occupied and when. I indicate the time when part of my unit participated in the blockade and search of terrain on the axis that I referred to earlier. I indicate the composition of Combat Group 2 that was established to perform this assignment. I indicate the time when the assignment was received, the objective of the anti-terrorist operation, copied from the order of the brigade commander, of course. And then in the fifth paragraph we see when Combat Group 2 set out to perform this mission, how the march was carried out.

The statement is rather more detailed than my earlier description. We can see from the statement that the Combat Group 2 passed through village Bela Crkva in their motor vehicles from 5.00 to 5.30. That is very briefly. We did not notice anything in that village. There was no activity in the village. And at 6.30, we already started performing the assignment; searching the terrain and supporting police units in detecting and destroying Siptar terrorist forces in this area. ⁴⁵⁷⁷¹

JUDGE BONOMY: Did you carry out a search of Bela Crkva?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have already said there was no search in Bela Crkva.

JUDGE BONOMY: The reason I ask you is it is one of the assignments you have, according to the order in front of us, was to search Bela Crkva.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The search of Bela Crkva was not carried out, because I said that my lead security, forward security, whose assignment is to ensure unhindered march for my combat group on their axis of movement, established through reconnaissance that there was no activity from Bela Crkva village against our troops. Since there was no activity against us, there was no reason for us to counteract. Counteract against whom?

JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Second, we had contact with the commander of the police.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. So the search of the terrain was not conducted because there was no action coming from that terrain.

A. Search of terrain, Mr. Milosevic, is, incidentally, one of the most difficult and most complex military operations. If it's compounded by terrorist action, it is the most complex operation that can be performed by a unit or organised by a commander. There is no sense by exhausting your men, making them search the terrain if you have reliable information there are no terrorists there. We never did that, either in ^{45772 BLANK PAGE 45773} 1998 and especially not in 1999.

Let me just remind you that around 2000 hours on the 24th of March, the day before, the aggression of NATO forces against our country had begun. So it was far from my mind to engage in marginal matters. Instead, we followed orders. We set out to uncover, destroy terrorist forces, and free certain roads that had been occupied by terrorists, roads that were extremely important primarily for the supply of VJ units but also for supplying the civilian population and everybody who lived in Kosovo and Metohija normally in our area, Djakovica, Prizren, and Orahovac municipalities.

JUDGE ROBINSON: As you can see, it's time for the break. We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, in the indictment, paragraph 56(b) -- or 66(b), it says that on the 25th of March - that is the date that you were talking about - forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded and attacked the village of Bela Crkva, Orahovac. What can you say about that?

A. I can say that this is absolutely not correct. If we go back to that map of Bela Crkva, we will see that the village of Bela Crkva had never been surrounded. And again I say there was no need to surround it. I'm talking about the original map of Colonel Delic, commander of the 549th Brigade, which constitutes the order to combat Siptar terrorist ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁴ forces.

On that map we see that Bela Crkva village is completely outside the area of conduct of military operations. So this is absolutely incorrect. We never surrounded Bela Crkva village, and we never performed any operations in it because there was no attack.

Q. It goes on to say in the same paragraph that: "Many residents of Bela Crkva fled along the Belaja river outside the village and were forced to seek shelter near a railroad bridge. And as the forces of the FRY of Serbia -- and Serbia approached the bridge, they opened fire on a number of villagers, killing 12 persons including 10 women and children." Since you were there, what can you tell us about what happened?

A. Well, this is absolutely untrue, so it's difficult to comment. But I'm looking at this allegation. This Belaja brook, it's very short. It starts in Bela Crkva from the confluence of two streams, one from east, one from west, and they make up this Belaja brook. These residents had no one to flee from, and I guarantee they didn't flee. And if they had fled along the Belaja river, they would have been going north. And if you look at the map, to the north of Belaja river there is no railroad. The railroad is south of the village.

So the person who provided data for this indictment got it all wrong. These allegations are completely incorrect.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness says that Bela Crkva was never surrounded. The Bela Crkva village is completely outside the area of conduct of military operations.

Is that -- is that the reason why you say it was never surrounded, ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁵ because it was outside the area of conduct of military operations?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, as soon as it is outside the area of conduct of combat operations, it couldn't have been surrounded. And I just explained a moment ago the activities of my unit in Bela Crkva village.

We passed through in a marching column -- or, rather, motorcade. The troops were loaded onto vehicles. There were other vehicles and military equipment in the motorcade. And we passed unhindered through the village. I don't know which other words to use to explain this. In Bela Crkva village, there was absolutely no action. There was no need to surround the village. I don't see any sense in it. Why would we surround a village without it being followed by some action? That's what I'm trying to explain.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. In the same paragraph it is also alleged that: "The forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered men and older boys to strip and then systematically robbed them of all valuables. They were ordered to go back to the riverbed and later opened fire on those men and older boys, killing approximately 65."

What can you say about these allegations? Do you know anything about it?

A. I can say these allegations are completely untrue. I know nothing about any of this for one simple reason: This never happened. That's what I'm telling you. I was personally present there at the head of my ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁶ unit, and I had absolutely all the information about things that happened not only in Bela Crkva village but in the entire area of conduct of operations. I cannot accept that the army robbed or killed and whatever is said here. That is absolutely not correct.

Q. But a Prosecution witness Isut Zhuniqi from Bela Crkva testified here that 16 policemen opened fire at 13 Kosovo Albanian civilians who were between the bridge and the police, about 50 metres away from him, the witness. He testified here on the 6th of June, 2002. It's on transcript page 6439.

So 16 policemen opened fire at 13 Kosovo Albanian civilians.

A. I've already said what I had to say. It seems that the witness's testimony is the same as the indictment. I cannot comment upon something that I know never happened for certain. I would like to see a proper piece of evidence rather than such witness statements that would corroborate this.

I absolutely reject the kind of statement you are presenting me with.

Q. In this statement that we just looked at, the statement that you provided and commented upon, you said in the last paragraph concerning alleged crimes on the 25th of March: "I first heard in late 2001 and read about it in the book 'As Seen, As Told.'" And you maintain that no crime had been committed nor had there been any combat operations conducted. You are also not aware of any crimes committed by other units.

A. Yes. I've just explained that, and that's the conclusion of my statement. ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁷ Incidentally, the statement was asked of me not only in relation to Bela Crkva. I wrote a total of ten to 15 statements where the expert team of this Commission for Cooperation with the ICTY wanted me to clarify certain points that were unclear and that were subject to differing interpretation of events in which my unit was involved. That's why I gave those statements to the commission. At the time I gave these statements, I had already been retired for quite a while. And this last paragraph confirms all that I wrote in the entirety of my statement.

Q. So you gave us a detailed explanation about Bela Crkva. You were personally present in Nogavac during the war; right?

A. Correct. Part of my unit and myself went to Nogavac, performing an action on that axis.

Q. Can you explain the map that is marked Nogavac TK50? It was introduced during the testimony of General Delic and admitted D300, tab 433. You have it under number 8. Was it precisely your unit that was in Nogavac?

A. Mr. Milosevic, here in the heading you see the 1st and 2nd of April. Let me just remind you: Part of my unit from trig point 339 performed actions on the axis of Nogavac and later on Randubrava, but you will notice that on the 1st of April there were no units of ours in this area. And as far as I can see, this is an indication of NATO Air Force action. It says 2nd April at 4.00 in the morning. So there was an airstrike. NATO Air Forces targeted civilians who were hesitating whether to leave the village or not. And they probably wanted to give them an impetus to flee the village. This is my assumption, it's not based on any ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁸ documents.

What I do know is that the police -- or, rather, during that period of time I was towards the north to continue the anti-terrorist operation, and part of the terrorists succeeded in pulling out and reaching Mount Milanovac and link up with the forces, the terrorist forces who were active up there. So after this action, an anti-terrorist operation was continued along the Orahovac-Malisevo axis, and so on and so forth.

So on the 1st and 2nd I was not in Nogavac but I do know about the event and I know for sure that this action was done by NATO planes.

Q. Thank you, Colonel. However, here in paragraph 63(i), we see that on the 25th of March, 1999, a large group of Kosovo Albanians went to a mountain near the village of Nogavac, also in Orahovac municipality, seeking safety from attacks on nearby villages. That is what is stated. Can you comment? Can you tell us what happened there?

A. Well, first of all, let me say that this is not at all correct, and let me tell you why. Here's why: What it says here is went to a mountain near the village of Nogavac.

Mr. Milosevic, you learn in primary school that up to 500 metres is manoeuvre terrain and over 500 metres is where the mountain begins. I'd like somebody to find you on anybody's map, whichever map you like, where in the vicinity of Nogavac village there is a feature of 500 metres or an altitude higher than 500 metres. And not to waste your time, I'll tell you.

The first nearest mountain is Milanovac mountain, and it is at a ⁴⁵⁷⁷⁹ distance from Nogavac of some ten kilometres. Then there are mountains south across the Beli Drim River, Pastrik and so on. I don't want to enumerate them all. So this is quite incorrect. It's wrong that near the village of Nogavac there is any kind of mountain whatsoever. And then the following assertion is also incorrect, that the army attacked nearby villages. The army did not attack a single village, and I claim that with full responsibility. Just from the villages, all that -- from those places from which the Siptar terrorists opened fire on army units and soldiers did the army respond when they uncovered a fire target, which is quite normal. And this is provided for by all the rules of combat for the engagement of an army. I don't think that is characteristic only for the army of Yugoslavia. Any army would do that, and that all armies, all armed forces from all countries have the same rules and regulations as to when they engage.

So what is alleged here in the indictment is absolutely incorrect.

Q. But mention is made here that the forces of FRY and Serbia surrounded these people. They surrounded them. It says they went to a mountain near the village of Nogavac in Orahovac municipality, seeking safety from attacks on nearby villages. And then it is claimed that: "Forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded them and on the following day ordered the 8.000 people who had sought shelter on the mountain to leave. The Kosovo Albanians were forced to go to a nearby school and then they were forcibly dispersed into nearby villages."

A. No. This is quite incorrect. The truth of it is this: On the 26th, in this area here, in the Sap [phoen] feature, I was informed by one ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁰ of my platoon commanders as soon as it was daybreak that we should -- this is a depression here, Niskovlaz [phoen], with a shrubbery, and according to his estimate - he didn't control or number them - but according to his estimate, he thought there were about 500 civilians there. Now, as since 7.00 a.m. we were supposed to carry on searching the terrain, or they were searching the terrain, he asked what should be done, and he personally took three soldiers with him, only three soldiers, and went up to those civilians and asked them where they were from, what they were doing in the area, and so on. And then he used our communication lines to inform me about it and I issued him an order and told him that since the civilians had said that they were from Celine and part of them were from the village of Nogavac, that quite simply he should pull them outside the area of combat operations, where we were expecting to engage with the terrorists and where in the Randubrava village, where the terrorists were, to pull them out and to have them return to their villages because there would be no more action in the villages. There were no more terrorists there and therefore no more action. And that was what was actually done, because the combat group commander informed me later on that the civilians had passed his positions and went on to the village of Celine. Some said they were going on further to Bela Crkva, and I think that a smaller number went to stay with relatives and another part went to Velika Krusa. So it's quite normal that the civilians should be pulled out of an area where we expect action. And this figure of 8.000 people is absolutely incorrect, just not true. As I said, we didn't count them, we ⁴⁵⁷⁸¹ didn't control the -- we didn't look at their identity cards, identity papers, but there certainly could not have been 8.000 people. And furthermore, it says they were forcibly dispersed. That is just not true. Who in their right mind -- if you were a civilian, I mean, civilians -- get away from an area where their lives would be in jeopardy, their lives and the lives their children? And let me just remind you: These groups of civilians -- or this group of civilians was, first of all, made up by women, children, and elderly males who were not military fit, fit for military service. And it is quite logical --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the witness tends to give answers that are too long, and I'd like you to ask questions and for the witness to answer more briefly.

MR. NICE: Your Honours, for the record, in case anybody has difficulty making easy sense of it on subsequent reading, we've been referring not to 63(i) but to 63 subparagraph (a)(i).

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Who in their right mind would not get away from an area ..."

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, it is (i) and it says (i). Otherwise, a Roman numeral does not have the dot above it. But I do agree it is 63, paragraph 63(a)(i).

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. This is a very sweeping assertion, Colonel, if I can use the term, and that is why I have to ask you to pay attention to all the details. It says clearly the following: "On the 25th of March, 1999, a large group --" that's the paragraph I'm referring to, (i), paragraph 63(a)(i): ^{45782 BLANK PAGE 45783} "... a large group of Kosovo Albanians went to a mountain near the village of Nogavac ..." And you said a moment ago how far the mountains are from the village of Nogavac. What did you say?

A. Ten to 12 kilometres. You can see that if you look at the map.

Q. All right. Fine. "... seeking safety from attacks on nearby villages. Forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded them and on the following day ordered the 8.000 people who had sought shelter on the mountain to leave."

A. Let me repeat it again and explain again: My blockade stretched from the eastern regions of Bela Crkva towards the town of Orahovac and south-east of Orahovac. Even if these civilians wanted to flee to the mountains, they would have to come across our forces that had set up a blockade. But I state once again: They could not physically have reached a mountain. That's the first point.

Secondly, the army never surrounded any civilians. There was no need for them to do so. Why would they?

Q. This says here about these 8.000 people that they were forced to go to the nearby schoolhouse and then dispersed -- nearby school and then they were forcibly dispersed.

A. Mr. Milosevic, I tell you they were outside an inhabited area, a settlement. This is Sara, which is a depression, and if you look at the map --

Q. How many of them were there there?

A. Well, the free estimation of that commander was about 500. He said there were roughly 500. So this figure of 8.000 just doesn't stand. ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁴ But if you look at this area, there is no school there. A school exists in Velika Krusa, in Mala Krusa, and in Celine. But there's two kilometres. So when you say "nearby school," that must have been close to the people where -- close to the area where we had allegedly surrounded them. So you can see that this portion of the indictment just does not correspond to the truth.

Q. And later on it goes on to say: "After three or four days, forces of FRY and Serbia entered the villages, went from house to house and ordered people out."

A. Well, I just don't know how to interpret this or explain it. Why would we send them back to the houses if we wanted to order them out again? I don't see any logic there. There's no sound logic there. So this is nonsensical, and it's very difficult for me to comment on nonsensical assertions of that kind except to say that it is absolutely not true, not correct.

I was present there myself. I know that the army never surrounded civilians. I know that the army did not forcibly expel anyone, and I know that it's just not true, and I won't accept that, and I cannot accept this. I know that the army of Yugoslavia did not engage in things like this, and I was an officer of the Yugoslav army.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just to be clear, in relation to this paragraph in the indictment and the previous one which dealt with Orahovac, your case is that these incidents as alleged in the indictment never took place at all?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here we have the commander of the ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁵ combat group which was there on the terrain, in the field, and that's what I'm asking him about. And you heard his answer. You heard what he said. Colonel Vukovic is talking about what actually happened there, and you heard what he had to say about what it says here in the indictment; that it is a lie. It's false.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And then it says they forced them --

JUDGE ROBINSON: You're not saying that the incidents took place but took place in a different manner than what is alleged in the indictment, you're saying they never took place at all, they never happened. I'm just asking you now what your case is, not the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That it never happened. That's what I learnt, and I can only learn that from the witness. He was in command. He was the commander of the units which were precisely located in that area at that time, and we're talking about the 25 of March, 1999. That's the date. That's the date stipulated here in the indictment. On that date was when the witness was there and his unit, his combat group.

JUDGE ROBINSON: All right, thank you. Yes.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. And then it goes on to say: "Later on they forced them into the houses again and told them not to leave. Those who were not able to fit in the houses had to stay in the cars and tractors that were parked nearby."

Did you see any civilians, cars, tractors? ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁶

A. Absolutely not. The people who I encountered were on foot. They were only walking. There were no columns, no tractors, no motor vehicles. Quite simply, as I say, this is just not true. There is not a single piece of evidence that anything like that took place. Had there been something like that, then I would have had information about it. And the army is based on orders and the execution of orders and reporting back once those orders had been carried out. That's how an army works, functions.

Q. Colonel, I'm sorry to have to persist and tax you here, but this is what is explained in paragraph 33. It says: "On the 2nd of April, 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia started shelling the villages, killing a number of people who had been sleeping in tractors and cars."

A. Here this is partly true, but you know what part? Let me explain to you. In one part, and I've already said it, actually, earlier on. Let me take you back to the map of Nogavac, showing Nogavac. On the 2nd of April and the 1st of April and already on the 25th from 1800 hours, there was no army, no soldiers in the vicinity of the village of Nogavac at all. The army, therefore, could not, even had it wanted to, it could not have shelled them. It wasn't there. And most probably those villagers had prepared to leave Kosovo and Metohija.

First of all, in the night between the 1st and 2nd of April was when the NATO Air Force targeted civilians intentionally, I say, to get them on the move, to get them moving. Not only them but all the other villagers too. And as far as I am informed, and I am indeed informed, that's where a horrendous crime took place against the civilian population ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁷ during the NATO bombing. Of course, in order to trigger a humanitarian catastrophe in order to justify the aggression, which is an act of -- a criminal act according to all international rules and regulations. But it is not true that the army shelled. That was the consequence of the NATO bombing.

Q. So on the 2nd of April there were no soldiers in the area, was no army there. Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Q. And when was this area bombed by NATO?

A. Yes, the area was bombed by NATO then, and I know that the civilian organs, the investigating judge conducted an on-site investigation, and so on and so forth. Of course, these inhabitants, the villagers were first helped by a police unit, a police unit that happened to be stationed in Velika Krusa and had the assignment to ensure secure -- communication and the roads between Prizren and Djakovica. They were the first people to arrive to help them and transport them to the hospital in Prizren since Prizren was the nearest town with a hospital.

Q. Colonel Vukovic, a witness of the Prosecution, Ali Hoti, said here in this room that he believes that on the 1st of April the Serb planes dropped bombs on Nogavac. What can you say about that, about that allegation? And he testified on the 22nd of April, 2002. The transcript page is 3589.

A. What I can say is this: That is completely incorrect, because at that time already our planes weren't flying. There was -- NATO had full air control of the airspace. ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁸

Q. So everything that I have read out to you, you say that there were none of our forces there and NATO planes were flying.

A. Yes. That's what I know for sure. There were none of our forces there and on the basis of that I state that all airstrikes against the civilian population was intentional.

Q. Well, I think that will suffice as far as these allegations and this portion of the indictment is concerned about -- which refers to Nogavac.

Now, during the war did you participate in any activities in Mala and Velika Krusa?

A. Well, part of my unit, a platoon, passed along the fringes of Velika Krusa. The outskirts. It wasn't involved in any direct action so it was moving along the following axis: Along the Celine road towards this area here and feature 440 -- 450, sorry. And action in Velika Krusa was directed against the units and forces of the Ministry of the Interior, who were there searching the terrain.

I can speak to those events if that's what you're asking.

Q. You can. We have a map here marked as Mala Krusa TK25 of the 26th of March, 1999. And we have a map of Velika Krusa dated the 25th of March. They have been admitted into evidence D300, tab 430. They have already been exhibited.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before I move on, you said the statement of Colonel Vukovic was introduced during the testimony of General Delic and marked for identification. I would like to tender it now because Colonel Vukovic has just commented upon his statement. ⁴⁵⁷⁸⁹

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be admitted.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for that.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, you remember what I just said, I hope, about the maps of Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa that you have under tabs 9 and 10 in your documents, Exhibit D300, tab 430, admitted in July of this year. Can you put these maps on the ELMO.

A. First we've got the map of Mala Krusa that deals with the 26th of March.

Q. You can deal with them in that sequence, or you can change the sequence.

A. I don't know what is better for the Trial Chamber. Do you want me to deal with them in chronological order?

Q. Please, as briefly as possible, explain what happened in Mala and Velika Krusa.

A. We have to look at them comparatively to deal with the entire action.

Around 7.00 on the 25th of March, the search of terrain began. The first feature on which fire was opened was precisely Velika Krusa and the wine cellar in Mala Krusa. Terrorists opened fire as the units were arriving at their initial positions.

Let me tell you at the outset that Velika Krusa and Celine village are connected. There is no clearly defined border between the villages. Already at 7.30 action began, fire began from well-prepared trenches, bunkers and communicating trenches against police from Celine village on ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁰ my left wing -- sorry right wing. And because the police units were stopped before Celine village - the terrorist action was very strong - the movement of my unit was slowed down.

I informed my superior commander, I got additional assignments from him, and the action continued.

Here again you can see that the deployment of police forces at 1200 hours is this, and the deployment of my units in yellow. You can see that until 1200 hours, search of Celine village had been completed, as well as search of Velika Krusa, and preparations were made for continued action.

As for this other map of Mala Krusa, I have already said that for Combat Group 1 and the blocking forces, already during the deployment of forces fire was opened from the wine cellar area. There was also fire from Pirane, but you're now asking me about Mala and Velika Krusa. And since our units had performed their nearest task, smaller forces of the MUP remained in Mala and Velika Krusa with the exclusive assignment of securing the Prizren-Djakovica road.

Q. During that operation, was there any action vis-a-vis the civilians on your part or on the part of the police units with whom you acted in coordination?

A. No, there was no action vis-a-vis the civilians, which is quite normal. In most cases - in fact, I can say safely say always - civilians got away from any area where they thought there might be action. Concerning Celine village, we did not have precise information because we had lost so much time during the day. Not a single artillery ⁴⁵⁷⁹¹ projectile fell on Celine or Velika Krusa, because I was the only one who had 120-millimetre gun that could perform such an action. But we didn't use 120-millimetre mortar because precisely we were not sure whether there were any civilians in Celine.

Q. So there was fire at you from Celine village, but you were not sure it was empty of civilians so you didn't want to shoot?

A. Yes. We opted to destroy those firing points through manoeuvre and smaller calibres to avoid adverse consequences for the civilian population.

Q. Did you report these events to your superiors, that is the brigade commander?

A. Of course. We were all part of one communication system, and whenever there is something important to report to your superior commander, or something that may affect another unit, or if assistance is maybe needed somewhere, I report it. I may even decide to report things on my own initiative. We were permanently within this communication system, and I kept them informed about the course of this anti-terrorist action.

Q. You are now talking about your unit. What is -- what was the ethnic structure of your unit? I'm talking about commanding officers.

A. As far as soldiers are concerned, it was the same as other units: In addition to Serbs, there were a lot of Muslims, quite a lot of Hungarians, quite a lot of Roma from Kosovo and Metohija, the Gorani, Turks as well, Czechs, Ruthenians; all able-bodied men fit for military service who had received their call-up papers. ^{45792 BLANK PAGE 45793} And as for the ethnic structure of commanders, it was rather variegated. I can tell you the names, if you wish.

Q. It would be interesting to me. Could you please try.

A. Well, the commander of the 1st company at that time was Captain First Class Sel Janos, a commander from Vojvodina. The commander of the 2nd company was Captain First Class Slobodan Nangelov, a Bulgarian from Dimitrov. Commander of the 3rd Company was Captain Zaim Ajdidovic, a Siptar.

If you allow me, I want to say this: When I say "Gypsy" or "a Siptar," I don't mean ill, I just mean an ethnic denomination. The commander of the mortar company was a Gorani. I would not like to mention his name because he and his family may have problems with Siptars in Kosovo and Metohija.

Commander of the anti-armour rocket squad was a Macedonian. There was another commander, Dobrica, whose ethnicity I sincerely don't know, Mr. Milosevic, because I never inquired. The main thing for me was that my subordinate commanders execute the orders that they are given and that everything works well.

I myself am a Montenegrin. In order to be a Montenegrin, I first have to be a Serb, but I don't want to bother the Trial Chamber with all this.

Q. So practically all your commanders were of different ethnicities, at least those you enumerated.

A. Yes. They were all of different ethnicities, but it was one of the best units in the army of Yugoslavia. ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁴

Q. Do you know that in 66(c) that deals with Mala and Velika Krusa, it says, and we have seen the movement of forces on the map, it says that forces of the FRY and Serbia attacked the villages of Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa. Is that correct?

A. It's not correct. In order to answer this question, with the leave of the Trial Chamber, I have to explain the difference between the traditional attack as a form of combat operation on the one hand and search of terrain and combat with terrorist forces on the other hand. It would be a very brief explanation.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it really relevant, necessary? Well, if it's brief, let us hear it.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to explain this term "attack" otherwise. In an attack, you have a clearly defined front line, you have clearly defined own forces, supporting forces, and all the other elements. You also know exactly the exact deployment of the enemy, and you use the appropriate forms of manoeuvre to overwhelm the enemy. In this combat action, such as search of terrain and combat with terrorists, there is no classic attack. There is no fire preparation. There is no aviation preparation or rocket preparation. You move the front to search the terrain. When there is no action against the unit, the unit has nothing to respond to and it doesn't act. The moment terrorists start to act or fire, we start to fire, too, to eliminate those firing points.

So I cannot accept that there was an attack on Mala and Velika Krusa. It was not an attack. It was solely combat against terrorists who ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁵ were in that area. And all the villages that I enumerated so far were extremely well fortified. Some of them fortified to the third degree, which implies bunkers and shelters made of reinforced concrete, with barriers over two and a half metres high made of the same material that protects even from a mortar hit.

JUDGE ROBINSON: As far as Mala and Velika Krusa are concerned, you're saying that there wasn't an attack but there was some combat action against terrorists who were in the area. That there was some activity there on the part of Serb forces, but it is -- it should not be characterised as an attack.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I do not accept that the army is a Serbian force, because I just mentioned its ethnic composition. It was a regular unit of the army of Yugoslavia.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the correction, yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. And second, what you said is true: There was no attack in the traditional sense. It was exclusively combat against terrorists. If you mean fire action, there was fire action, which is normally part of every combat activity, but it was exclusively directed at terrorists who opened fire at our troops.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And there is an allegation that the forces of the FRY and Serbia looted and burned -- burnt houses.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I just said a moment ago that I do not allow for any allegation of that kind that the army of Yugoslavia looted. It is impermissible.

It is my duty to speak the truth. I'm an officer, albeit retired. ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁶

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there is a way in which your witnesses give evidence that is interesting. There is a law that prohibits something, there is a military order or regulation prohibiting something, and your witnesses rely on this as the basis for saying that a particular incident didn't take place. I mean, what a trust we are supposed to have in their fidelity to orders. Your case can't be put in that way. Let us deal with the actual facts.

Never mind that it was impermissible, that it is impermissible according to the regulations for them to loot. Did they in fact loot? We wouldn't be here today if -- if there were no breaches of regulations.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm afraid there's a small misunderstanding. When the witness says "impermissible," he doesn't mean impermissible according to the law. Of course it's impermissible according to the law. I believe it is an expression of his astonishment at such allegations in the indictment. He simply cannot understand that anybody can claim things like that. That's his point proceeding from what he knows from the ground, from being on the ground at the relevant time.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear his evidence as to what actually happened on the ground.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, could you please just tell us what actually happened on the ground. In what sense did you use the word "impermissible"? What do you mean by that?

A. Well, I used the word "impermissible" to say that I cannot accept allegations in the indictment of this kind which say that the army of ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁷ Yugoslavia looted, burnt, and all the other things that are alleged. So if I were to allow that, to permit that and accept that, that means that I would have received an order to do something like that and that I organised something like that, and I'm precisely saying the opposite, that nothing like that happened.

If you ask me whether there were individual cases and instances, then we can address individual cases and instances, although not in this area because my unit didn't even have individual cases like that in this particular region. But if we address the rest of the area of responsibility, unfortunately there were instances like that. But then I can also tell you of the measures and steps that I myself took, and I -- and the superior command took to uncover the perpetrators of such crimes and to hand them over to the courts, to the judiciary, to deal with. But as I say, in this part of the country there were no -- even no such incidents, individual incidents. And had anything like that happened, I would, of course, have had to know because it is impossible to cover up things like that in a military organisation, a proper one.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. As we were saying, we stopped off discussing the attack on Mala Krusa and Velika Krusa and you said there was no attack. Then in providing us with your explanation, you say how terrains are searched, how you conduct a search of the terrain. And you move across a terrain. When do you open fire?

A. Well, you exclusively open fire when you are being fired at, when ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁸ our units were targeted.

Q. So you were moving and only if they shot at you did you shot at the people -- shoot at the people shooting at you.

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Is there any other circumstance under which you would open fire?

A. Mr. Milosevic, no other circumstance. That is the kind of action that is undertaken. There are no preventive strikes, as our colleagues from the West like to call them and use the term and concept.

Q. So you just move and open fire only when you're shot at, at the people shooting at you; is that right?

A. Yes, that's quite clear.

Q. That's what you explained to us.

A. Yes.

Q. I just wanted to check whether I'd understood you correctly.

A. Yes, you did.

Q. Now, the following claims made here, not to mention paragraphs and subparagraphs, I've already mentioned that it's not important as far as you're concerned, but it is claimed that in the morning of the 26th of March, the forces of the FRY and Serbia ordered women and small children to leave the area and go to Albania. And then that they held the men, searched the men, took away their identification papers and valuables and then ordered the men, on threat of death, to move on foot to an uninhabited house in Mala Krusa.

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would appreciate a reference.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] ⁴⁵⁷⁹⁹

Q. And then it further states that they forced these men, and it always says the forces of the FRY and Serbia, and the young men to enter the house and that they opened fire at them from a machine-gun --

JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreters are asking for --

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreters are asking for a reference. It's paragraph 66(c).

THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. 66(c), yes. I said that at the beginning when I started quoting. I didn't think I needed to specify later on, but here I am repeating: 66(c).

On that morning of the 26th of March, they ordered the women and small children to leave the area and go to Albania. They detained and searched the men and boys and confiscated their identity documents and valuables, ordered them to go to a small house in Mala Krusa and then opened fire from a machine-gun, and then they set fire to the house so that the bodies could be burnt. And allegedly during that shooting and in those flames about 105 Kosovo Albanian men and boys died as a result. So there you have it. That's what it says there.

A. Well, I don't know how many times I need to repeat that none of this happened. There was no looting. There was no taking of personal documents. There was no confiscating of valuables. And a soldier, generally speaking, cannot loot during the fighting, during combat, even if they wanted to because they wouldn't have anywhere to take the goods, ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁰ wouldn't know what to do with the goods. All they have is their combat kits and combat kits and rucksacks with a bomb, reserve ammunition, reserve socks, for example, and items of hygiene. So even if anybody wanted to take anything, they wouldn't have anywhere to put it, let alone the fact that there was nowhere any more than ten soldiers without an active commanding officer, and the commanding officer would certainly not have allowed them to engage in any such action.

Now, as far as killings are concerned, well, I don't know who could have compiled anything like this because, look, this is what I want to say: If in a closed space you use a machine-gun to shoot, your eardrums would explode. So quite simply this is just not feasible. If I were to analyse each of these allegations, I would see and you would see that something wasn't already there, okay. And I claim, and I was there personally, that this kind of event never took place.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did anybody die? Did anyone die in the shooting? Because you have acknowledged that your forces would shoot back when you were shot at. So I'm asking, if your forces were shot at and your forces shot back, did anybody die in that shooting?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean terrorists or soldiers?

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, both. You can distinguish them, yes.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we take a look at a detailed analysis of the anti-terrorist operation, then you can see losses, casualties on our side, and it is our estimate that, if I remember well, about 80 terrorists, I think was the figure, was killed -- were killed in this anti-terrorist operation. But I must say and I must add ⁴⁵⁸⁰¹ this: The bodies of those killed, we rarely came across the bodies of those killed because the terrorists used civilians first and foremost to pull out both the wounded and the killed, their own members who were later secretly buried. So we didn't encounter bodies.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Your forces, you're saying, had nothing to do with those who were killed, with the removal of the bodies of those killed.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was like this: The asanacija or clearing up of the battlefield, asanacija, is an act which is carried out after the fighting has ceased, when there is no combat action and no more danger and no threat to security and safety of one's own unit. And in the order issued by the brigade commander - and I can find it here - in one of the paragraphs of that order, with respect to the rear it says a clearing up of the terrain, of the battlefield. "Asanacija" is the term, and here we have the document. It is point 8(g), clear-up of the battlefield. And this should be done by involving one's own forces and resources once the combat action has ceased in cooperation with the organs and authorities in the territory.

Otherwise, Mr. Robinson, for the clear-up of the terrain, we first of all engage civilian structures and teams for clearing up the terrain. They exist attached to the Civil Defence staffs or civilian protection staffs in Prizren, Orahovac, and Djakovica. And the commanders of the military units are duty-bound to locate the spots, to indicate the areas, and to provide support and reinforcement with respect to safety and security for the teams undertaking the clearing up of the terrain in ^{45802 BLANK PAGE 45803} discovering, uncovering bodies, the bodies of humans and animals and so on. It's a long-lasting process.

JUDGE ROBINSON: In the asanacija, did your forces collect any of the Albanian bodies?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I answered that question. I said that we didn't encounter any. We didn't come across any, so we didn't collect them up, because this operation went on for four days. We can't interrupt an action, an operation, to pick up the bodies of those killed. And -- but as I said, we didn't come across any bodies because they had been already pulled out.

JUDGE ROBINSON: What were your losses?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our losses, the loss to my unit was one soldier killed and three wounded, I think. And in the whole brigade, and you can see this from the analysis -- just a moment, I'll find it, that exact spot. I think three dead and seven wounded, but I stand to be corrected.

JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]...

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know for certain about my unit. I can give you the names of the soldiers, if you would like.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Not really. What was the size of the terrorist group that you were dealing with?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, according to our estimates, 1.500 terrorists. But on the map -- you can't see it on this map, but if you put the Retimlje map on the overhead projector, then you will be able to see that in the village of Retimlje there was a brigade -- or, rather, ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁴ the command of the 124th Brigade, if I'm not mistaken but we'll put the map on the overhead projector and then we can see --

JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't want a map right now. Did you tell us what was the size of your unit, the size of the forces that were involved in the combat action against the terrorists?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the first and second day, 186 people were engaged, and later on the brigade commander requested that I send another platoon to close off an axis where the terrorists were pulling out towards Mount Milanovac. So my total forces in that operation numbered 220 men.

The forces of the army were around 800 and something.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell us the weapons that your forces used and the weapons used by the -- the terrorists.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as weapons are concerned, all the weapons that an infantry battalion would generally have, including 120-millimetre mortars which throughout the operation did not shoot a single mine because there was no need to do so. And I was reinforced with a tank platoon and a mechanised platoon - they are combat infantry vehicles - and a platoon of air defence guns, 30-millimetre ones.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And on the other side?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anti-aircraft guns, 30-millimetre.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And the terrorists?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the terrorists, they also had excellent weapons, which means they had automatic rifles of the Kalashnikov type, most frequently made in China, but they are of the same ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁵ level. They had excellent sniper rifles, excellent optic sights, produced in the West. They also had light machine-guns, 7.32-millimetres, machine-guns of 7, 9 and 12 millimetres. PKT Russian produced or Browning USA produced. They also had anti-armoured weapons, RPGs or Armbrust, the German type. There was quite a lot of that. They also had recoilless guns, US produced 70 millimetres, and mortars --

JUDGE ROBINSON: Did your forces -- did your forces also have machine-guns?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said they did. We had the weapons that every infantry motorised battalion would have. They are calibres from 7.62 millimetres to 120-millimetres.

JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, yes. Mr. Milosevic.

JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, may I ask one thing. Is part of your answer, Mr. Vukovic, you said that there was nowhere any more than ten soldiers --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving the interpretation. I didn't get what you said. I didn't hear the entire question.

JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Vukovic, at one stage in your answer, your last lengthy answer, you said that there was nowhere any more than ten soldiers without an active commanding officer. In what sort of circumstances were groups of that size active without an active commanding officer?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand you. I don't ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁶ understand your question. An active officer and NCO, they were the commanders of a rifle platoon, for example, numbering 30 men. However, when -- what I said was that the struggle against the terrorists and searching the terrain is a very complex combat operation. Then we tried to take as many officers with us as possible to avoid our own losses and, of course, in order to carry out our assignment as best as possible. And it was in that sense that I said that there were never more than ten -- that an active officer usually was in charge of ten men, talking about the terrorist operation.

JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- well, it certainly was not translated that way. It was translated on the basis that ten men might be acting without an active commanding officer. You say that didn't happen.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know what translation you were getting, what interpretation, but I know what I said.

JUDGE KWON: The next sentence tells that there should be some mistake. If I read the transcript again where you said that ten soldiers, in answer to the question put by the Presiding Judge you said: "So even if anybody wanted to take anything, they wouldn't have anywhere to put it, let alone the fact that there was nowhere any more than ten soldiers without an active commanding officer." And you said, "And the commanding officer would certainly not have allowed them to engage in any such action."

So what did you say actually?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I precisely said what you just read out. That's what I said. I don't know what you wish to hear from ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁷ me.

JUDGE KWON: You said there's nowhere no more than ten soldiers without an active -- so there should have been a commanding officer. I follow. Thank you.

JUDGE BONOMY: I regret I don't, but perhaps it can be sorted out in cross-examination.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. It says here that our forces had taken these people to a house, opened fire, set fire to the house, and that about 105 Kosovo Albanians were killed. And then the names of those killed are set forth in Schedule C. I haven't counted them, but I'm sure that there are probably several dozen of them. They were all male.

A. Do you happen to have the date of birth of those people, their age?

Q. The average age military-able men, mostly. On the first page, for example -- let me have a look -- there's just one who is 17. I don't want to make a mistake. There is one who is 16 years old. Two are 17 years of age, as far as I can see, but I stand to be corrected. On the second page there's one of 16, one is 15, and one is 13. And on the last page we have one more who is 13, but usually they are 68, 34, 36, 27, 33, 26, 72, 28, 22, et cetera. 23 and so on, 39, 50, 40, 70, 20, 33, and so on and so forth. I'm skipping some. And that's why I said, generally speaking, military-able men have been listed there. From this it emerges that all those who were killed were civilians and that you killed them by collecting them up in a house, executing them, ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁸ and setting fire to the house.

A. No, Mr. Milosevic. If they were killed, they could have been exclusively killed in battle. They could -- if they were killed, they could only have been killed if they had opened fire and targeted members of the police and army, not outside combat. And I guarantee that. The army never did anything like that. And I can repeat it as many times as you like. And you can bring in all 220 soldiers here who were engaged in that operation with me, and they will confirm it and say the same thing I'm quite sure.

Q. Was there any killing of a civilian in that action?

A. In this action? No.

Q. Was any prisoner of the KLA killed?

A. No, because you can see from this analysis that nobody was taken prisoner. As for the tactics of Siptar terrorists in Kosovo, I can tell you a lot about after initial failures, after we'd drive them away from well-fortified positions they'd have to abandon, they conceal their weapons or throw them away, they discard their uniforms, change into civilian clothes, and blend with civilians, because they know, they are certain that no repressive measures would be taken against them. In my statements and other statements, you can see that in Brezovac, in addition to lists of terrorists, lists of ammunition, et cetera, we also found parts of military uniforms that belonged to the terrorist organisation of the KLA. As the action proceeds, we find more and more of those uniforms, and we find the most on the last day when they had changed. There was a large group of civilians in Mamusa, and they ⁴⁵⁸⁰⁹ simply blended with them because they knew the police and army would do nothing against them. That was their tactics in 1998 and, of course, during the aggression.

Q. You say, therefore, that they were certain that the army and police would do nothing against civilians.

A. Right. That's why they change into civilian clothes.

Q. Witness Ali Hoti, from Velika Krusa, said here that on the 25th of March Serb forces surrounded Velika Krusa village and that he himself had seen tanks and Pragas in the village as well as Serbian forces that had started shelling the village.

What can you say about this claim? He testified in April 2002, transcript page 3589.

A. I can say that it is not true. I have told this story before. The village of Velika Krusa has never been surrounded, one. Second, tanks and Pragas -- it can't be Praga, it must be a 35-millimetre tank. They were never in Velika Krusa, because the police does not dispose of such weapons. Only the army has such weapons.

On the road from Prizren to Djakovica or Prizren to Zrze, all up to the 27th, in the evening, there was a blocking unit. Its only task was to not allow the terrorists to run across the Beli Drim river and flee into one the terrorist strongholds; in Rogovo, for instance. But the police did not have such weapons, and they couldn't have gone with them to Velika Krusa. So it's complete nonsense.

Allegedly tanks and Pragas, I suppose manned by some people because they can't go in alone, went into the village, and then we ⁴⁵⁸¹⁰ ourselves went into the same village, I suppose in order to be shelled by our own. Nonsense.

I told you already there was no shelling of Velika Krusa because there was nobody else able to shell apart from my firing group in that terrain.

Q. And your own firing group didn't fire a single shell.

A. No. During the entire time of action, that firing group did not fire a single shell. I did have smaller calibres as well, I admit, but there was no shelling of Velika Krusa.

JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the 20-minute break now.

--- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Colonel Vukovic, let me just go through your comments on the statement of Ali Hoti, namely that our forces surrounded Velika Krusa. You say it was not surrounded. He claims tanks and Pragas shelled the village. You say there was no shelling at all.

A. That's correct. That's my assertion.

Q. To that you add the fact that your mortars that were able to shell the village were never used.

A. Correct. Not only then but throughout the four days that my unit or, rather, the part of my unit involved was in this area.

Q. The same witness who testified on the 22nd of April, transcript page 3589, says -- his name is Ali Hoti from Velika Krusa. He says that ⁴⁵⁸¹¹ on the 29th of March, 1999, Mehmet Krasniqi told him that on that day in Mala Krusa the Serbian police and paramilitaries rounded up 109 men, including this Krasniqi, took them to a house, covered them with straw, poured petrol on them and set fire to them. This Krasniqi survived somehow. So Ali Hoti learned this from this Krasniqi man.

A. All I can say is that none of this is true. There are several untruths in it. It says Serbian police and paramilitaries. Look, concerning paramilitaries, throughout my tour of duty in Kosovo and Metohija I never saw any paramilitaries or, for that matter, any armed member who was not part of the regular units of the army or the police. And I can say with full certainty that Colonel Delic was there. And where he was and where I was, not a single paramilitary soldier could have been for any length of time because he would have been immediately arrested.

Then he says they were practically incinerated, poured petrol on and set fire to. There must have been burns. Why didn't this Krasniqi come to show the burns? But there was no rounding up and covering with straw and pouring of petrol and setting fire to. This is absolutely untrue.

Q. In Orahovac municipality there is also the Celine village. You personally were involved in the events in Celine; is that correct?

A. Yes. I and a part of my unit participated in the events or, rather, combat against terrorists in the village of Celine as well. I have already mentioned this.

Q. Under number 11 here, we have a map of Bela Crkva, Celine, 29th of ^{45812 BLANK PAGE 45813} March, 1999. Sorry, 25th of March. D300, tab 367, admitted through General Delic on the 5th of June -- 5th of July. Could you tell us what happened in Celine on the 25th of March. Where was your unit? What were you doing, pursuant to which order? What were your movements?

A. On this map we see the deployment of my forces at 1200 hours on the 25th, but I can tell you that in the morning action began from this line that I showed earlier around 0700 hours. Already at 0730 in the area of Celine -- or, rather, from the area of Celine and Velika Krusa, fire was opened at a platoon of mine and a unit of the police that had set out to search the terrain towards Velika Krusa.

Combat against fortified terrorists lasted for a little under an hour. We assumed that the greatest part of the terrorists pulled out towards Randubrava village. It was the police unit that entered the village first, because it is their purpose to search populated areas, whereas the army remained on the fringes.

After the police conducted the search and established there were no terrorists left in the village, we emerged in our combat disposition on the eastern part of Celine village. You see here the deployment of forces at 1200 hours.

In the village of Celine, there was no civilian population before combat operations began, and I've already told you earlier that we were very slow in dealing with these firing tasks precisely because we were not certain whether there were any civilians in the village or not. Later on, during that day and the day after, I ran across groups ⁴⁵⁸¹⁴ of civilians, some of which -- some of whom stated that they were natives of Celine and said that they had fled deeper into the territory. As for what I did, I gave specific assignments to my subordinate commanding officers such as to neutralise certain firing positions to protect the troops, to avoid losses among our own troops, and other normal things that every commanding officer does.

As for the disposition of units acting towards Celine, that was pursuant to the brigade commander's order to crush the terrorists and to lift the blockade of roads.

That is the basis upon which I made my own orders and decisions, adjusting them on the ground to match the developments. As for my unit, you see that emerged on the eastern slopes of Celine village at 1200 hours, and part of the unit was here in Amovac - you can't see it well here - approaching Bela Crkva.

Q. You have described the course of events up to that point. Is it described in the same way in your statement?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has been provided here, D300, tab 369, introduced on the 1st of July this year during the testimony of General Delic and at the request of Mr. Nice or, rather, at his objection, it was your ruling that it would only be marked for identification.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Now, under the next number, 12, is this your statement, Colonel?

A. Yes. This is my statement given to the Commission for Cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal. Of course, in my previous answer I only commented upon the map that is on display, whereas my ⁴⁵⁸¹⁵ statement is more detailed.

Let me just note that after we passed Celine village, after the completion of combat operations in the village, sometime around 1400 hours - if I could have the map back it would be useful - in the Hoca riverbed we ran into a group of civilians. In my rough estimate there were about 200 of them. One of my commanders found them there, informed me. I went there personally. I talked to them. They were mainly women, children, and elderly men, and I talked to one elderly man. He told me that early in the morning of the 25th, they found shelter there, fleeing Celine and Nogavac to protect themselves from the upcoming action, knowing that there were terrorists in the said villages.

He told me, in fact, that the terrorists were not from his village, but they forced them to dig shelters and trenches around the village.

I told them -- in fact, I ordered that civilians remain in that area until the army has passed by and then to return to Nogavac because there would be no more action and there were no more terrorists left. I know that at least where Celine is concerned the group reached the village because one of my commanders informed me. I told this commander to change the firing position to avoid any possible incident. And anyway, it was a very small group of soldiers. Only ten soldiers and two commanding officers. For their personal safety, I moved them to the Brinje feature. In the course of the day, we emerged at trig point 450. You can't see it well. There's also trig point 337 that leads to Donje Retimlje. That is where we moved and organised some rest for the troops. And we ⁴⁵⁸¹⁶ also made sure that terrorists could not move back or pull out towards the features that we had searched already.

Q. In this statement, we can see in paragraph 4 what you told us a moment ago, and that is that from the village -- it says: "The first contact with the Siptar terrorist forces was at around 0730 hours when from the area of the Celine village they opened fire on my right flank, platoon right flank on the police units and we responded to the fire. The fighting went on barely an hour when the Siptar forces were routed and probably withdrew to the village of Randubrava." And among other things you say something that you've already said, that: "A police unit searched the village, that I passed by around 10.00 a.m. --" yes, 10.00 a.m., you're quite right -- "and I did not encounter any civilian population."

So what you said a moment ago is what you set out here?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And then the next paragraph refers to the 200 civilians.

A. Yes. When it comes to civilians, don't take these numbers as being final numbers because it's a free estimation. Nobody actually counted them. It was a rough estimate of how many civilians there were, so it might not be the exact figure but give or take. It's a rough estimate. Mine, too, because I was on the spot and also the rough estimate made by my commanders, commanding officers. And we can see that that group later on did leave and went to the village of Celine and went back to their houses. Of course, then came the events of the 1st and 2nd of April. ⁴⁵⁸¹⁷

Q. We've already gone through those.

A. Yes, we've gone through them.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, since this is -- was produced during General Delic's testimony and was just marked for identification, I'd like to tender it into evidence now, this statement by Colonel Vukovic which he has just commented upon.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. We've just seen what you gave to the commission. Colonel, just let us dwell for a moment on the statements you made to the Commission for Cooperation. Were you in the expert group?

A. No, no. I was not a member of that expert team or commission.

Q. Explain how you worked, how you came to give the statements.

A. Well, I was personally contacted by a man whom I happened to know during my years of service earlier on. Colonel Djurovic is his name, and as I say, I had already retired. I was already a retired man when I gave the statement. He told me -- said that we should meet. We did meet, and he explained to me how the commission functioned, what its tasks were, why it was set up in the first place, and he asked me whether I wished to explain the action of my unit at that time and in that location, which I accepted, because it is in my interests to tell the truth about these events, to have the truth be told.

So, now, if you mean the actual technique of writing the statement, I wrote it out in longhand and then he typed it out. I looked ⁴⁵⁸¹⁸ through his typing, because it was a document, compared it with my original, and signed it.

Q. What about your subordinate officers? Did they provide the commission with statements as well?

A. Yes, they did. They made statements, those who took part in this operation and those who the expert team managed to find, because some of them had already left the army. That is to say they were no longer in active army service. Another portion was engaged in combat assignments in the security zone, for example, on the ground. So those who were available, he contacted them and they provided him with statements. I have some of those statements here, so if it is of interest to the Court I can read them out too.

Q. Well, we might do that. We might take you up on that later on, but do you know that in paragraph 63(a), devoted to Orahovac municipality states that on the morning of the 25th of March, 1999 -- the 25th of March, 1999, is the date, "The forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the village of Celine with tanks and armoured vehicles. After shelling the village, they entered the village and systematically looted and pillaged everything of value from the houses, set houses on shops on fire, and destroyed the old mosque. Because of this, most the Kosovo Albanian villagers fled to a nearby forest before the army and the police arrived."

A. Well, there are a lot of strange -- well, if I skip over something, please point that out to me, but let me say that the village of Celine was never surrounded, and no village was during this anti-terrorist operation, if it comes to that. None of the villages were surrounded. ⁴⁵⁸¹⁹ There was no reason to surround the village, to surround a village if you want, by your own combat deployment, to do something we refer to as search the terrain. And I claim that the village of Celine was never surrounded. Next, I claim that the -- there was no shelling of the village, and I've already said that. I said that earlier on. Because that group capable of shelling a village did not fire a single shell.

Q. But you said you had some reinforcements, a tank platoon or whatever. Did they do any firing perhaps?

A. No. Mr. Milosevic, there was an order in existence which was given before the war started, and that was that care should be taken and that all calibres should be placed -- the use of all calibre weapons should be placed under control, because we expected to be attacked. So we saved on calibres, on ammunition. And there was no sense in using a tank cannon, for example, a tank gun, to destroy a sniper. So -- as there are other calibres prescribed for that. Now, if you cannot do anything else, then you would use it.

However, in the village of Celine, tank weaponry was not used except for a machine-gun, a 7.62-millimetre machine-gun which was positioned on it. Otherwise, permission for the use of tank weapons, a tank cannon, for example, is given exclusively by the brigade command. It is only the brigade commander that can issue such permission. And lower-level commanding officers can only issue orders if a unit is directly attacked, to use armoured vehicles.

Next, it says "... systematically looted and pillaged everything of value from the houses." Well, I already said a moment ago that even if ⁴⁵⁸²⁰ a soldier wanted to, he would not have anywhere to put the things that he had taken. Would it be normal to expect that he is shot at carrying a television set on his back, because a television set is a valuable, after all, from a house, let alone any more heavy furniture, items of furniture. Next it says that houses and shops were set on fire. That is absolutely not true. The army never did anything like that. Then it says destroyed the old mosque. I don't remember the old mosque at all. If it was destroyed -- if it is destroyed, then it could only have been destroyed for one reason; because people opened fire from the mosque and targeted the soldiers. And let me remind you if any facility or building is used for military purposes, then it is a legitimate target and may be targeted.

I really can't remember the mosque in Celine just now, but I do remember the mosque in Donje Retimlje for sure where there was a sniper and machine-gun nest and for three and a half to four hours they kept us pinned to the ground because we weren't able to advance because of the firing that was very precise and fierce.

So even if the mosque was destroyed, it was only destroyed because there was shooting coming from the mosque targeting the army and police. Then it says fled to a nearby forest. Please, around the village of Celine, anybody who doesn't know this area and can't read a map -- or, rather, who can read a map can see that around the village of Celine there is nothing green, which means there are no forests. There are only some orchards, and around the Kocanska river there's something that we call low-lying shrubs, low-lying shrubs of a metre and a half to two metres ⁴⁵⁸²¹ would be the highest vegetation there.

As for a forest, there were no forests in the area. It's all barren. You have forests at Milanovac Mountain, which I mentioned a moment ago, which is at a distance of 10 to 12 kilometres from here. So they couldn't have fled to the nearby forest, as it says.

Q. All right. They said that they went to a nearby forest even before the army and the police arrived, entered the village.

A. And I say to you there is no forest there so they could not have fled to a nearby forest.

Q. Now, with respect to this assertion of surrounding a village, you said that there was no surrounding the village.

A. Correct.

Q. And you said there was no shelling of the village.

A. Correct.

Q. There was no burning of houses?

A. Correct.

Q. Looting, what about looting?

A. I said, right, there wasn't any.

Q. There wasn't any?

A. No. If you ask me whether there were any destroyed houses, there were but only in this respond to the firepower from the terrorists. But intentional burning, that certainly didn't happen.

JUDGE ROBINSON: That's another example, Colonel. If there was any -- any destroyed houses, it was only in response to the firepower from the terrorists. But, I mean, can you state as a matter of fact that this ^{45822 BLANK PAGE 45823} was the position, that there was firepower from the terrorists and in returning the firepower -- in returning fire, houses were destroyed? I mean, that is what is important to us as evidence, what happened as a matter of fact, not what ought to have happened on the basis of the orders by which your forces are supposed to operate.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. What I've just been saying are just facts, and I'm telling you this on the basis of my own personal experience. I was there throughout the time, in the first front line with my soldiers. So everything that I'm telling you is fact. Now, if you take a look otherwise at the axis of where my unit was operational, the entire village of Celine is halfway -- is in the middle of the width of that zone. So I was personally physically present in the village of Celine, if that's what you mean, so I'm just telling you of the facts.

JUDGE ROBINSON: And you did see houses destroyed? You were a witness to the destruction of houses?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not an eyewitness to the destruction of houses. I'm telling you -- what I'm saying is that there were individual houses which were destroyed but only as the result of the effects of weapons and in destroying the fire positions -- firing positions of the terrorists that were targeting us.

JUDGE ROBINSON: You were a witness to the destruction of these individual houses?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was a witness. In every war there is destruction of houses. You have houses destroyed in every war. ⁴⁵⁸²⁴

JUDGE ROBINSON: No, not on the basis of supposition and what happens in every war. What happened on the day when you were there? Are you saying that you witnessed the destruction of individual houses; and secondly, are you saying that that was done as a response to fire from the terrorists?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at the transcript, things will be clearer. So there was -- they opened fire from a number of houses that were prepared to be fired from, which means on the windows you would have sacks filled with -- sandbags and sacks filled with earth. There was -- were windows and doors knocked down on the other side so that they could shoot from the house, because if you fire a high calibre bullet from a closed-in house, then your eardrums would explode. So the village of Celine was a fortification of that kind, and as a result, these firing points were destroyed when they were in houses.

So my answer is yes, I was present when individual houses which were used by the terrorists were destroyed.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps that clarifies it, but you've just a short while before said you weren't present. You are assuring us that you saw it actually happen and that you didn't simply see the results of what had happened earlier?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what results you mean.

JUDGE BONOMY: By "results" I mean the damage. You're not simply saying, "I saw the damage later." Are you actually saying that you saw ⁴⁵⁸²⁵ the damage being done by the firing by your forces?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear, that you see it straight away. If you shoot at the enemy in a house, of course the house is damaged, and that is -- you can see that straight away.

JUDGE BONOMY: Did you actually see that happening? Yes or no.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm telling you --

JUDGE BONOMY: Yes or no.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was present.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you, Colonel. This is quite clear. Just let me take a look at what it says further on. That same paragraph, for the benefit of the interpreters, who have the document in front of them, I'd like to draw their attention that I'm still dealing with paragraph 63(a). Towards the end of that paragraph, it says: "On the 28th of March, 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia forced the thousands of people hiding in the forest to come out. After marching the civilians to a nearby village, the men were separated from the women and were beaten, robbed, and all their identity documents were taken from them. The men were then marched to Prizren and eventually forced to go to Albania."

There you have it. That's what it says in paragraph (a).

A. That is absolutely not correct. First of all, on the 28th of March -- and I assume that this paragraph relates to Celine, does it?

Q. Yes.

A. The army was -- my unit specifically was in Retimlje, Donje Retimlje, and part of Mamusa. So on that 28th, Mr. Milosevic, my unit was ⁴⁵⁸²⁶ not operational at all. It didn't go into action at all. We were just replenishing our forces; fuel, gathering up our soldiers and preparing to march to the village of Bistrazin.

So on the 28th, there were absolutely no soldiers. And even these forces who were in the blockade, on the 27th returned to their own areas. So there were no soldiers there on the 28th. There were no soldiers in this area here on the 28th of March.

Now, as for forcible taking of identity documents and so on, I state that none of that took place.

Q. You mean none of that happened there or none of that happened anywhere?

A. I said that in my unit that never happened. And I think that individual cases of abuse and individual cases of crimes can be addressed. I can tell you of individual examples when you ask me, but not here; they didn't happen here.

Q. A witness of the opposite side, Reshit Salihi, from the village of Celine, said that on the 24th of March the Serb army was wearing black uniforms and that it opened fire on houses and buildings including the mosque in Celine and that on that occasion they set fire to the houses or, rather, that the units of the army of Yugoslavia that day surrounded the village of Celine, shelled it, set fire to it, and then the army entered the village and that's when they opened fire and shot at the houses and buildings there. And he testified from the 19th to the 22nd of April, 19 -- 2002. This is page 3542 of the transcript.

Therefore, he says that on the 24th of April, the army was there ⁴⁵⁸²⁷ in black uniforms, that they opened fire and shot at the mosque, that they set fire to the houses, surrounded the village, shelled it, and then entered the village and opened fire and shot at the houses and buildings.

A. This does not correspond to the truth. On the 24th of March, my unit was in a village called Zup. It was not in Celine at all.

Q. Let us assume that he made a mistake about that.

A. As for black uniforms, the only black uniforms in Kosovo and Metohija were worn by terrorists, members of the terrorist so-called Kosovo Liberation Army. In our ranks, or in the ranks the Ministry of the Interior, I have never seen a black uniform.

And incidentally, these black uniforms are appearing in Kosovo, in Metohija these days. At least, that's what the media report. As for his statement that the army opened fire inside houses, it's complete nonsense. To open fire on empty buildings, not a single soldier, not a single unit would do that, because among other things, for every mission a certain amount of ammunition is approved to be spent. What are we to do, to spend all our ammunition recklessly and then remain without any when we face terrorists eventually? Complete nonsense.

Q. This witness says that men were separated from women and children, men were robbed, their ID papers taken away, and later on the men formed a line at gunpoint, walking to Prizren, and that at one point they stood for six hours with their arms above their heads. That's what he testified. I have it on the transcript.

A. I have already spoken about this group of civilians. It's not true that anybody took anything away from them, that they were robbed of ⁴⁵⁸²⁸ their valuables and ID papers. We didn't even check their papers. I don't see any purpose --

Q. Wait a minute, Colonel. You said that in some riverbed you found a group of about 200 civilians, but what he says concerns Celine. He says that an army unit entered the village that day, that they separated men from women and children, and then robbed men of valuables and papers and marched them in columns.

A. I have already told you, Mr. Milosevic, that in Celine village there had been no civilian population before combat operations began. I learned this from civilians who were hiding in the Hoca riverbed. They told me themselves. And later on when we entered the village, we established for ourselves that there were no civilians.

Q. This witness says that on the 26th of March, around 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning, a group of over 40 policemen reached Pisjak [phoen] woods where 5 to 6.000 refugees were hiding and, under threat, took away their valuables and identification papers. What can you say about that? 26 March in the morning.

A. To say the least, it sounds illogical, because he said earlier that on the 24th we drove them away towards Prizren. Then how were we able to find them on the 26th in some woods if we had already driven them away towards Prizren?

Q. Let's assume that he got that wrong. Where was your unit?

A. Early in the morning on the 26th, my unit was already approaching Randubrava and the search of that village was conducted.

Q. Where is this Pisjak woods? ⁴⁵⁸²⁹

A. I don't know honestly. It's not on the map. I suppose it's some local name. But I keep telling you one thing: There is no woods in this area. There are only orchards, vineyards, and trees here and there.

Q. All right. Is it possible for 5 to 6.000 people to hide in those orchards and vineyards? Is it possible for 40 policemen to come there, rob them of money, valuables, and ID papers?

A. It's simply impossible for such a large group to be in one area without being seen.

Q. On the 26th, were you in the area?

A. Yes, of course I was, Mr. Milosevic. I have been telling you where I was from the 25th until 28th. I was in that area. And a large concentration of refugees was only in Mamusa village.

Q. Do you mean the Turkish village?

A. Yes, it's populated mainly by Turks. And at least twice as many civilians were there from the neighbouring villages. On the 28th, I spoke to the locals of Mamusa, and I can tell you that they did not want to buy weapons from terrorists, because the terrorists used to sell weapons to their own people under very serious threats, at very high prices. The Mamusa people did not want any of that, and they were maltreated by terrorists. And the Mamusa people complained they simply couldn't cope with such a large number of people in their village. They had nowhere to put them up.

But to speak of such a large number of people hiding anywhere, it's simply not true. I told you, we came across groups of 100, 200 - in one case there were 500 - but never more, except in Mamusa village. ⁴⁵⁸³⁰

Q. All right. The issue of how many people could have been in a group is one thing. Did anybody mistreat these people, take anything away from them, rob them, even if there were only 15? Did anybody separate men from women?

A. No. The army never looted, robbed, separated men from women or anything like that.

Q. Agim Zeqiri, another witness, says there was a convoy of refugees escorted by army and police of Yugoslavia, numbering about 4.000 people, moving towards Albania. Was there a convoy that was gathered in Orahovac? Was anybody directing it towards Albania? Did anybody drive away these people and make them go to Albania, as witnesses say?

A. Even if that convoy existed, it was certainly not escorted by the army. As far as I know, it wasn't escorted by the police either. It's true that after the aggression began on the 24th of March, and especially on the 25th and throughout the first days of April, there was a lot of civilians who were going to Albania. They could have gone to central Serbia or Montenegro, but for reasons known only to them, most of them decided to go to Albania, but the convoys were never escorted or directed.

Q. Did anybody tell them to leave their homes and go?

A. No. On the contrary. Whenever we had contact with them, we told them to stay in their villages, not to leave. If that's what you're asking me, my answer is that there was no attempt to persuade them or to order them to go anywhere.

Q. Witness Jusuf Jemini from Celine - he could be Jemini or Jemini, I'm not sure about the pronunciation, but from Celine - he testified on ⁴⁵⁸³¹ the 24th of July, transcript 8559. He says in his testimony that over the radio code 444 he heard a conversation between a policeman from Celine who was saying that many people had been killed in Celine whereas the other voice asked him, "Is it a larger massacre than in Racak?" And the first one answered, "It's twice as big."

Now, what can you tell us about this massacre in Celine? The statement of that witness was exhibited under number 276.

A. This massacre in Celine is non-existent, and I'm slightly confused by this code 444, and I'm confused by how come a civilian can have a radio device that is only used by police or army. And if he had a radio device, how did he stumble upon the frequency used by the army or the police? I'm absolutely -- I'm almost certain that in this operation we had a code name Poljanica, and to this name Poljanica a certain number was added for purposes of identification during calls. Although we could tell each other's voice even without those code names. As for the police, I believe their code name for the operation was Cegan, plus a certain number. So this code is a fiction.

I told you I was in Celine and my unit was in Celine and there was no massacre there.

Q. You also said there was no civilian population as such in Celine.

A. Yes. Only in the 20 -- in the afternoon of the 25th, part of the civilians were told to return to the village after the completion of combat operations.

Q. Let me just find this number.

A. That's number 18. ⁴⁵⁸³²

Q. Under number 18, we have your statement, a statement that you gave in relation to the events from the 25th to the 28th of March.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, that's D300, tab 406, also marked for identification during the testimony of General Delic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Is this your statement?

A. Yes, this is my statement given to the Commission for Cooperation, detailing the first day of combat, the 25th of March. Don't be confused by this. It was the idea of the commission who required this statement to separate actions by days, and later separate statements were given to deal with specific places.

You can also see my personal details here, which duties I performed.

Q. No, I mean number 18.

A. I'm looking at 18.

Q. No, number 18 does not contain your personal data. It only says unit operations between 25th and 28th March, and it begins with: "I received a report that in the area of Sarap a large group of civilians is there, the third day of operations."

A. We obviously have different statements. That's precisely what I was saying, that early in the morning, before combat operations began, my platoon commander informed me that in the area of Sarap feature a large number of civilians was located. He asked me which measures to take. I went there in person, and I ordered that those civilians be pulled out outside the area of combat operations. I said they can go to their ⁴⁵⁸³³ villages or choose any other village as long as it is outside of the area of combat operations. Celine, Nogavac, Brestovac, Velika Hoca, Mala Hoca, Bela Crkva, Zrze. They could have gone wherever they wanted. They could have left Djakovica as such. The idea was just to move them from the area in which maybe operations would take place before -- because before we begin, we don't know if we will find any terrorists there and if they would open fire.

My -- in my bundle, this statement is marked 16. I can read it, if you want, but the substance is what I told you, even without looking at the statement.

And one other thing you can see from the statement is that the commander of the firing group informed me that a group of civilians had passed, around 0800 hours, by his firing position on their way to Velika Krusa. It also says that another group of civilians --

JUDGE KWON: We were dealing with your statement marked number 18, not 16.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement is marked 18.

JUDGE KWON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. Perhaps I mixed up my notes, Colonel, and I assume you're right. But it doesn't really matter which order we take the statements in. Under number 18 - do you have this document - the document which relates to the 25th to the 28th where you say that: "On the 26th of March at dawn I received a report that in the Sarap area there were a larger group of civilians." Do you have that under 18? ⁴⁵⁸³⁴

A. Under 18, Mr. Milosevic, I have the first day of the operations, which is the 25th of March. Now, the statement you're mentioning under number 16 -- is under number 16, and that describes these events.

Q. Yes. My number 16 -- my number 16 is your statement. What you just said to begin with, it says that you were commander of the 2nd Motorised Battalion of the 549th Motorised Brigade, and then it goes on to say that from 0 --

MR. NICE: Could we put it on the overhead projector because I really don't know what I'm looking at. Perhaps it is there already.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we are in a state of confusion resulting from the evidence you are --

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we are indeed, Mr. Robinson.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, take us out of it if you can.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm trying to unravel this, but quite obviously when these exhibits were put in order, my number 18 is this statement, whereas the colonel's number is different, has a different statement. And I assumed that we had the same sets of documents in the same order. I suppose there might have been a technical slip-up. So under number 16 and number 18 are his statements. They are both his statements, but it seems they have been placed in reverse order, switched. From the 25th to the 28th is the one I have first, and then another statement which relates to the 27th. And that's what I have under number 18. So if number -- and number 16 is the statement that the witness is referring to. And the time is Bela Crkva, Celine, Donje Retimlje, dated from the 25th to the 28th of March, 1999, or rather ⁴⁵⁸³⁵ statement on unit activity. So the best thing would be to have it placed on the overhead projector.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the 26th.

JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have to adjourn in any event because there is another case beginning here shortly. So I'm going to give you the evening to sort this out, unravel it, and we'll return to this tomorrow morning at 9.00 a.m.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day

of October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.